why is it my kids never behave but other kids do? - Page 5

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by contactmaya 
Other kids tho, just wouldnt do it. I watch in amazement as 2 year olds stick by their caregiver. Especially girls. Mine dont do that.

Careful with the gender stereo-types. My ds is very very cautious. He always stuck by me. Heck, he's 9 and he still freaks out a bit when I go around into a different aisle in a store and he can't see me. As a 1-2 year old, dd was much more fearless. Ditto for whether fathers or mothers are 'scarier'. It all depends on the situation. Yes, men can in general be scarier, but I suspect my kids are more scared by me when I'm angry than they are by dh when he's angry. I blow up more.

Originally Posted by NellieKatz 

It was essential that I get into the driver's seat as parent. We are very democratic and consensual and all that when in a setting where we CAN. Which is most of the time. But in areas where I need to be the parent to guide him and teach him, he needs to know I'm going to give him the tools he needs to succeed. I mean, it does him no favors if I let him be a wild man wherever we go. Then I'd be too nervous to sign him up for programs and activities because I can't count on him to behave appropriately. He would  end up missing out. I need to equip him so he can fit in and succeed wherever he may go. Not like a doormat or a sheep, but with appropriate respect for the people he's with.

Very interesting post -- what strikes me about your experience was that you eventually had to make behavior expectations overt and discuss them. Talking about what he should do, practicing it and  then giving feedback (however you chose to do it) was a very effective teaching strategy. My older child needs that kind of teaching. My younger one doesn't. What you found out was that your son needed the direct teaching, and you implemented in it a way that worked for both of you. That's a good example of realizing that your child has needs that were different from what your expectations were, and rising to meet them.

[madskye]

Originally Posted by contactmaya 

I havent read all  of the responses-i gleaned a little bit of 'well if mothers like you would actually teach their kids some manners...' kind of attitude, so wasnt inpsired to read further. I could be mistaken, and i want to thank everyone for offering their wisdom and  especially those with experience of consesual living.

My kids probably are a little  more daring than others, because they havent learned fear. This isnt a criticism of other people, or of anyone on this board, so please dont take it as such. On top of that, they probably have personality types that make  disruptive bahviour more likely, but they are great in a playground. Being boys, also makes this more likely. (girls can be like this too, but from what i have observed, its less common)

I also think there is the fact that i dont have an overpowering personality. Some people are just more commanding, and it takes less effort for them to make others do what they want. Those people as parents, will experience less of what i am experiencing...thats just a theory, i dont know.

In some situations, its hugely impractical to 'leave'.  But I  certainly take any child of mine out of the room if they are disruptive. Its not like it just sit there and let them do what they are doing.I also get close to them and explain that behaviour is not ok, and that its important to be considerate of others.

But...that isnt really enough.

At home, my kids are great. We never have bedtime issues, we eat at the table together. They are considerate within the expectations of their age, because i emphasise consideration of others in their upbringing. Compassion and sensitivity rate very highly on my list of values. That is why, i detest engaging power struggles that involve physical force, and bossy or even manipulative behaviour. (That doesnt mean i dont see it as necessary sometimes.)

I also think that some of these 'child friendly' places are not as child friendly  they say. I did go to one place where there was total acceptance of child like behaviour. Toys were strewn at the feet of worshippers, and children played with them in the crowd as people prayed.  There was a general din, but it didnt bother those worshippers. If a child was really over the top-yes, take them out, But guess what, it  didnt happen. Not even my boys. It was nice to let them be themselves in a place of prayer.

Ive talked about this with friends IRL as well. Ive received advice that i should 'discipline' these kids, with a spank on the bottom (which they claimed wasnt hitting).

Ive received other advice, which i found more helpful-to read up on personality differences in children, and to speak in greater detail *before* the event about my expectations. Some people on this board have suggested this too, and i have done it, but maybe i will do it more.

Sigh...i think i may be stuck with this behaviour until they grow out of it, because i do believe its more a personality issue.

Just my thoughts for now....

You have to know that my 5yo is actually a very considerate kid, and ive always considered him to be nicer than his peers. 2yo is a 2yo....

I like my style parenting.

What would naomi aldort say about this do you think, anyone?

Naomi Aldort would probably ask you to pay for a consultation, based on the  Q& A  she had posted on the old site.

I liked the advice upthread about actively caring for your 2 year old at the gathering, sharing snacks and toys with him.  Perhaps you could even enlist his older brother into helping with that and by giving the 5 year old more responsibility it would help settle them both down.

I also think it's interesting that you say they are very good at home.  It makes me wonder if they really just need more clear instructions as to what's expected at temple or the park or the library?  I don't think you have to yell and be a different parent, but perhaps clarify what you need to have a good day out?  You could make up a list of expectations for going out: I use inside voice, I am respectful of others property, I stay within Mommy's eyesight (or whatever is important to you) and then read it to them each day before you go out.  I do that with my five year old and she actually really likes it.

 

[GuildJenn]

Originally Posted by NellieKatz 

I think the fact that he is 7 really makes a difference. He is able to see that not only do I mean business--that I will NOT tolerate inappropriate behavior--but I think it's a little easier for him to control himself now as he is getting older. But it's still important that I spell out in advance what the appropriate actions are for each setting. I will say "Ok, we are going into the robotics presentation. We need to be quiet because the person is telling about the robots and we must be polite." or "We're going into the church now, where you'll need to sit quietly. Would you like a small pad of paper so you can draw?" "We can't stay in the library if you run. Please use your slow speed."  It's amazing how he has come around since the horrid 5-complaints incident! He asks me "Mama can I go over there?" and sometimes I say No and he gets mad but he listens. It's truly a transformation.

It was essential that I get into the driver's seat as parent. We are very democratic and consensual and all that when in a setting where we CAN. Which is most of the time. But in areas where I need to be the parent to guide him and teach him, he needs to know I'm going to give him the tools he needs to succeed. I mean, it does him no favors if I let him be a wild man wherever we go. Then I'd be too nervous to sign him up for programs and activities because I can't count on him to behave appropriately. He would  end up missing out. I need to equip him so he can fit in and succeed wherever he may go. Not like a doormat or a sheep, but with appropriate respect for the people he's with.

 

Can I just say I really love how you handled this, especially the little quizzes on what would be appropriate? I know it may not be the way to go with younger kids but I think it was brilliant.

[mtiger]

I have to say that I found it somewhat offensive to have responses characterized in a certain way, while admitting to not reading most of them. And the gender sterotypes? Throw those out the window. My daughter is much more aggressive and active than my son has ever been.

Being a single parent is not an excuse for poorly behaved children. And yes, children who disrupt an entire congregation are poorly behaved. But... they don't know better if they aren't taught how to behave in a non-disruptive manner.

I started taking my kids to Church with me when they were infants. We do not have a nursery, children's room, or anything like that. There is one Liturgy, and everyone attends - infants, toddlers, adolescents, adults, elderly. And - no pews. I started by taking them for short stints, covering the most important parts of the service. As they got older and understood more, we stayed longer. They knew each time we went how long we were staying - and how I expected them to behave for that period of time. Afterwards, we'd do something special, whether it was out to lunch, home to watch a movie, run around like maniacs, etc.

And... The Look. It doesn't have to imply a threat of punishment to come. My kids understood that it meant "that's not okay - please stop." and the likelihood of no special fun after. My SIL used to marvel that they'd beacting up and then stop, and I never had to say or do a thing. LOL Of course I did. I gave them the look.

Life is MUCH more pleasant when you can take your kids places and not have to ride herd. I know parents who are very strict with their kids, and they are terrors in public. I know others who do nothing... same thing. Then I know the complete opposites. If what you're doing isn't working? Time to try something else! We don't get instruction manuals, so it's trial by error. But... in order for that to be effective, one has to be willing to try alternative methods.

[NellieKatz]

Originally Posted by mtiger 

Life is MUCH more pleasant when you can take your kids places and not have to ride herd. I know parents who are very strict with their kids, and they are terrors in public. 

This is a really good point which should be considered at length. I was raised by extremely strict father, and after the divorce, by my completely negligent mother. (both ends of the extreme). When I left home at 17 to go to college, I completely rebelled and did everything that I was forbidden to do before. "A hah!" I thought. They can't see me!!

This is, I imagine, not that uncommon. I saw a cartoon movie the other day (Jimmy Neutron) where the parents in town were all suddenly abducted by aliens, and the first thing the kids did was celebrate. Woo hoo! The parents were gone!! And they immediately started to misbehave and do all the forbidden things. The town was trashed. I know it is a cartoon but it resonated with how I grew up. Contrast that to my son's friends. We are in an unschooling/freeschooling/eclectic schooling community....decidedly NOT "top-down strict authority"...more toward democratic settings, consensus based for the most part. If these kids were left alone I cannot see them saying "woo hoo, let's do something rotten now that no one is looking" I can imagine them just still being themselves, because in their daily lives they are not under constant scrutiny, micromanaged, punished etc. Instead, for the most part, the parents in our circle focus  more on the relationship with the child over the long term versus short term compliance with the externals. In this type of setting you are less likely to have a kid that views the parent as taskmaster or enemy, someone to be outsmarted or escaped. 

I don't have time to fully flesh out this idea at the moment, but it's worth considering. HOW we achieve a child who knows how to behave appropriately to a setting is very important. I bristled when I heard previous posters talk about being "scary" or using a scary voice. I remember when I used to parent that way. I had a very angry child most of the time and I was on this board reading how to deal with a biting, hitting child. Those days are gone. They left when I changed MY methods.
 

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by NellieKatz 

Originally Posted by mtiger 

Life is MUCH more pleasant when you can take your kids places and not have to ride herd. I know parents who are very strict with their kids, and they are terrors in public. 

This is a really good point which should be considered at length. I was raised by extremely strict father, and after the divorce, by my completely negligent mother. (both ends of the extreme). When I left home at 17 to go to college, I completely rebelled and did everything that I was forbidden to do before. "A hah!" I thought. They can't see me!!

This is, I imagine, not that uncommon. I saw a cartoon movie the other day (Jimmy Neutron) where the parents in town were all suddenly abducted by aliens, and the first thing the kids did was celebrate. Woo hoo! The parents were gone!! And they immediately started to misbehave and do all the forbidden things. The town was trashed. I know it is a cartoon but it resonated with how I grew up. Contrast that to my son's friends. We are in an unschooling/freeschooling/eclectic schooling community....decidedly NOT "top-down strict authority"...more toward democratic settings, consensus based for the most part. If these kids were left alone I cannot see them saying "woo hoo, let's do something rotten now that no one is looking" I can imagine them just still being themselves, because in their daily lives they are not under constant scrutiny, micromanaged, punished etc. Instead, for the most part, the parents in our circle focus  more on the relationship with the child over the long term versus short term compliance with the externals. In this type of setting you are less likely to have a kid that views the parent as taskmaster or enemy, someone to be outsmarted or escaped. 

I don't have time to fully flesh out this idea at the moment, but it's worth considering. HOW we achieve a child who knows how to behave appropriately to a setting is very important. I bristled when I heard previous posters talk about being "scary" or using a scary voice. I remember when I used to parent that way. I had a very angry child most of the time and I was on this board reading how to deal with a biting, hitting child. Those days are gone. They left when I changed MY methods.
 

I don't think anyone on this thread is advocating strict, top-down authority through the teen years, or constant scrutiny and micromanagment of children at any age.

Appropriate control changes with the age and development of the child.  My 3 yo needs a LOT more active communication about, and enforcement of rules than my 9 yo.  I worried about doing things "just right" and avoiding punishment when dd was 3....but now that ds is 3, I can see the bigger picture and see how much happier and successful he is when there are very clear boundaries.  He'll have less need for it when he matures, and we'll be happy to grant him more autonomy when he is ready.

I don't think I have a scary voice....but I definitely have a serious voice, and a serious look.  I can call out ds's name from across the playground, make eye contact, hold out my palm in a "Stop." gesture, and he will generally stop doing the thing he knows I want him to stop (he already knows the rules).  He knows the potential consequence is that I will bring him to sit on the bench with me for a few minutes until he can agree to play safely  (not timed...just until he is calm and says "Ok, mommy.  I won't throw mulch and the girls anymore")  If I have to bring him to the bench more than 2x (rare), he is obviously having a bad day at the park and we go home.

[Carma]

Didn't read everything yet. Our kids are 5 and 3 (+ a 6 month old baby). When our kids are loud and wild in public, it is usually because they are tired or hungry.

I try to only go to public places with them when they are not close to naptime, bedtime or without food. Esp. when they get tired they cannot listen to me anymore, when that does happen I leave right away.

Kids these ages need to eat often. And my 3 year old needs to nap.

Carma

[EdnaMarie]

Careful with the gender stereo-types. My ds is very very cautious.

I agree.  I was at a playland today and I was chuckling because it was all the little boys clinging to mama... there were probably 20 kids there, 10 under five, and of those, maybe four or five were boys.  There were four boys who kept hanging on mom, who was inevitably, "Look, Connor, look at the other kids, up there, on top of the slide... doesn't that look FUN?"

Connor:  "Mama, is it scary?"

While my little girl, 19 months, is screaming bloody murder at me to get up on top of the big-kids toy.  Naturally she hasn't hit fear yet (she might never) but all the boys that age were shying away.

I really wanted to say, "Tsk tsk, boys will be boys, won't they?"

But I didn't want to start a debate in the playland, LOL!

If we kept notebooks of boys and girls raised in modern society, of concrete indicators--hits, kicks, wrestling, head-butts, hanging from places, climbing on appropriate places, climbing in INappropriate places, running off, shrieking, shouting, playing shooting with a finger, etc. etc. I'm willing to bet they would be VERY close in children up to age seven, if not much older.

Instead, we all just see what we want to see and reinforce our own stereotypes.

Oh, and YES to "the look".  My kids know when I'm serious.  They also have an uncanny sense of when I don't want to leave... if I have a cup of coffee, watch out, world.  "She's going to want to finish that coffee... we'll have at least four warnings before she sets it down... let's TRY!"

I am constitutionally unable to give a sincere Look when my coffee is in my hand.  When I set that coffee down, it's my kids, not the world, that better watch out because they're going to be in the carseats and on the way home in no time.  (And "no you may not play on my computer when we get home, I don't think you've been acting very respectful of other people and their things today, and I don't want to risk it!")  They may, however, build a jungle gym out of their playroom furniture.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by EdnaMarie 

If we kept notebooks of boys and girls raised in modern society, of concrete indicators--hits, kicks, wrestling, head-butts, hanging from places, climbing on appropriate places, climbing in INappropriate places, running off, shrieking, shouting, playing shooting with a finger, etc. etc. I'm willing to bet they would be VERY close in children up to age seven, if not much older.

Instead, we all just see what we want to see and reinforce our own stereotypes.

I agree. There are always exceptions, of course, but I haven't really noticed any major differences, overall, between girls and boys in these areas. As a toddler, dd1 was by far the most aggressive and demanding of my four. DS2 was the least so - and the "clingiest" (I don't like that term). That's just their temperaments.

Actually, overall, my experience has been that boys tend to be slightly more cuddly/clingy in some ways when they're very little. I'm not sure if that holds true in the general populace, though...and there's so much social pressure for boys to be "real boys" (aka miniature versions of some wonky masculine ideal) that we may never know.

[savithny]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride 

Originally Posted by EdnaMarie 

If we kept notebooks of boys and girls raised in modern society, of concrete indicators--hits, kicks, wrestling, head-butts, hanging from places, climbing on appropriate places, climbing in INappropriate places, running off, shrieking, shouting, playing shooting with a finger, etc. etc. I'm willing to bet they would be VERY close in children up to age seven, if not much older.

Instead, we all just see what we want to see and reinforce our own stereotypes.

I agree. There are always exceptions, of course, but I haven't really noticed any major differences, overall, between girls and boys in these areas. As a toddler, dd1 was by far the most aggressive and demanding of my four. DS2 was the least so - and the "clingiest" (I don't like that term). That's just their temperaments.

Actually, overall, my experience has been that boys tend to be slightly more cuddly/clingy in some ways when they're very little. I'm not sure if that holds true in the general populace, though...and there's so much social pressure for boys to be "real boys" (aka miniature versions of some wonky masculine ideal) that we may never know.

Wish I could find the article I read once that said exactly this:  From birth to about 3 (IIRC), boys and girls commit "aggressive" acts at the same rates.  After that, girls begin to channel their aggression into social aggression ("We wont' play with you," "You can't be her friend,' "You're a poopyhead and I'm going to tell all your friends you suck your thumb." ).   Boys continue to hit and kick each other.   So we think "Boys are aggressive, girls aren't" when we've socialized the girls to act out their aggression socially and verbally.   

[contactmaya]

 ...did not have time to read some of the new replies in detail,  but some of them look really helpful, and i look forward to reading them.

 Gender stereotypes:not my style. Its just something that ive observed since becoming a parent. There are always exceptions. I mean i gave my boys dolls, and they werent very interested, but they loved cars. I only want to meet their needs, and try to understand them as best i can. They wear pink if that any consolation.

In thinking about this, ive begun to realize its not really about discipline.  Taking them out, telling them what i expect, etc, works more like a bandaid, and its effect doesnt last. The point is, why  is my kid acting like that? For the 2yo, i know why. He's 2. My 5yo is more of a mystery at the moment.

I define discipline as 'teaching' as someone mentioned in this post. Teaching by modelling, and explaining, and setting 'natural' limits. In other words, there is a natural limit of being considerate of others if  we are to live in a community.  I suppose i have a different concept of what the concept of 'limits' really means. For eg, gravity is a limit, and we all have to deal with it. Night and day are limits.  Time passes. Limits are everywhere.

Just me thinking out loud here.

This passing saturday, i had the same problem. My 5yo was getting overly excited and making silly noises. I took him out 3 times. Even did a crab walk (in case its a sensory issue). He promised to behave,  I took my 2yo out completely. The thing is, they dont really care. It didnt work for long. We could go home, that would take another hour , and we' just spent an hour getting there. Fun. They wouldnt care, and it wouldnt work. It would be a waste of time and energy.  

Then along came my 5yo's friend. Guess what? It worked like magic, no more silly behaviour. He was so happy to see her.

I went to a different floor in the building with 2yo, while my friend watched my 5yo.

I know what the problem is now, he needs his friends near him. He is a total extravert. He is so excited, but if his friends arent there, he has nowhere to put his energy.

So now what i am going to do, is ensure that his friend/s will be there. If not, we dont go.

I want to add that before the service we met with some people, the girl is mean to my son, and excludes him. The father is fantastic, and we were talking. The girl in the meantime, kept ignoring my son who was trying to engage with her.  His reaction? Get sillier.

When his actual friend came along, his need for friendship and community was met.

His behavior after that, like a miracle, transformed.

Its all about community for me, and i guess it is for my son too.  

[zinemama]

I disagree that the solution to your son's behavior is the presence of a friend.. But let's say it is. Does this mean you're going to structure you whole life around finding a peer for him to be with when you are in public places where a certain level of appropriate behavior is expected from a child? Are you going to invite a friend along when you need to wait in a doctor's office or go to the grocery store? Will you have to contact a friend for him when you expect to be in line at the post office or to any public gathering? Do you see how exhausting and impractical this would be? Do you see that it would teach him nothing?

It's much easier than you're making it out to be. The reason your 5yo behaves like this is not a mystery. It really is a discipline issue.Taking him out and telling him what you expect isn't working. So you need to find another disciplinary strategy. People have offered much advice to you. Something like what NellieKatz tried seems like it would work with your child. Best of luck.

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by contactmaya 

In thinking about this, ive begun to realize its not really about discipline.  Taking them out, telling them what i expect, etc, works more like a bandaid, and its effect doesnt last. The point is, why  is my kid acting like that? For the 2yo, i know why. He's 2. My 5yo is more of a mystery at the moment.

I define discipline as 'teaching' as someone mentioned in this post. Teaching by modelling, and explaining, and setting 'natural' limits. In other words, there is a natural limit of being considerate of others if  we are to live in a community.  I suppose i have a different concept of what the concept of 'limits' really means. For eg, gravity is a limit, and we all have to deal with it. Night and day are limits.  Time passes. Limits are everywhere.

I don't really get this.  How is it not a discipline issue?  If what you're doing isn't working, you need to try something else - nothing works instantly.

And yeah, taking them out and telling them what you expect doesn't work if you do it multiple times in the same day - when pp talk about doing that (I think) they mean Go Home.  What I would do is take a misbehaving child out and say, "We're going to sit out here for a few minutes until you calm down.  When we go back in these are my expectations: (insert appropriate expectations here).  If you follow my expectations, then we will stay until (insert time), 2 more hours.  If you don't, then we will be going home since today is not a good day to be out."  And then follow through.

Teaching by modeling is great, but kids need some more structure I think.

2 year olds CAN be taught how to behave in an age-appropriate manner.  My expectations of my 22mo when we are out is that there is no hitting, kicking, biting, running away from me, pulling hair (mostly physical things).  If he hits someone, or kicks, or bites someone, we go home.  We started that at about 15months I think - worked like a charm, he doesn't do that anymore.  On the rare occasion that he does, if we can leave we leave.  If not, then he goes in the stroller until we can, or until he calms down.

The 5yo - I don't know how thats a mystery?  If you lay out expectations and they don't get followed there is a consequence.  Not going anywhere unless there will be a friend there doesn't teach him how to behave, it teaches him that if his friends aren't going to be there you won't go.  I'm not sure how that would teach him how to behave - what happens when you have to go somewhere that his friends won't be at?  Then what happens?  It's OK for him to misbehave as long as his friends aren't there? 

[contactmaya]

5yo's behavior is fine in public settings. I dont have a problem with that most of the time. The issue is in this particular setting, where there is a group of parents and children together, and that seems to set off his silly behavior, i suspect, because he is so excited. Having a friend there seems to impact him in a way that he is more integrated.

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by contactmaya 

5yo's behavior is fine in public settings. I dont have a problem with that most of the time. The issue is in this particular setting, where there is a group of parents and children together, and that seems to set off his silly behavior, i suspect, because he is so excited. Having a friend there seems to impact him in a way that he is more integrated.

So he's allowed to misbehave until his friend show's up?  Or you won't show up until you know his friend is already there? 

That method still won't teach him how to behave properly in that particular setting.

[GoBecGo]

Maybe he needs to be taught how to engage people without silliness so he can MAKE a friend, wherever he is, and get his need for community met? 

[fuzzylogic]

And what, exactly, are you going to do in a few years?  Raising kids is like raising a really big dog...if it is cute when it is a puppy, you let it get away with blue murder:  up on the furniture, jumping up, mouthing, barking, pulling on the leash.  Fast forward to 150 lbs, and now the dog knocks you down.  Well......

You can get rid of a puppy, but not your kids.  Appropriate social behaviour now will provide limits for when they are teenaged and you WANT those limits.  Kids raised with firm consequences and limits while younger are a delight when they're older:  you can treat them like adults and respect their decisions.  Otherwise, not so much.  I do realize that enforcing limits on kids is boring, annoying, and deprives you of doing something that you wanted to do, but you ARE the adult.  Suck it up and get it over with.

It isn't gender related.  My son was the least of all of my daredevils, while my girls took me to the ER so much they knew me by name.......

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by contactmaya 

5yo's behavior is fine in public settings. I dont have a problem with that most of the time. The issue is in this particular setting, where there is a group of parents and children together, and that seems to set off his silly behavior, i suspect, because he is so excited. Having a friend there seems to impact him in a way that he is more integrated.

If having a friend present helps, that is one tool in your toolbox.   Bringing a friend along, or meeting a friend, can be a great way to keep parent and child happy!

But, as others are saying, you won't always be able to control if a friend will be there, and it limits your options if this is your only tool.  Why not try some of the suggestions others have given in order to broaden your toolbox, and open up more opportunities for you and your son?

[D_McG]

I think hanging around for another 5 year old to come and make your son behave is short sighted as best.  You really need to step up here and be the parent. 

Edited by D_McG - 11/21/10 at 3:50pm

[MusicianDad]

Originally Posted by contactmaya 

5yo's behavior is fine in public settings. I dont have a problem with that most of the time. The issue is in this particular setting, where there is a group of parents and children together, and that seems to set off his silly behavior, i suspect, because he is so excited. Having a friend there seems to impact him in a way that he is more integrated.

If he's acting up because he is excited to be there and see his friends. Make it clear to him that if he behaves inappropriately then you will leave, and stick to it. Neither you nor your son can expect to rely on friends to keep him in line for the rest of his life. Teachers, store managers, and police aren't going to accept "but my friends aren't here to help me integrate" as a valid defense.