Help!! I am losing patience with my 4 1/2 year olds drama - Page 3

[coffeegirl]

Originally Posted by GoBecGo 

I'm pretty sure the harm of CIO results from the baby being unable to find you, unable to communicate its need and unable to do anything to help itself.  the same definitely cannot be said for my 4yo!  and tbh i don't want her to realise i will listen for 50mins how heartbroken she was that i cut her toast into squares rather than triangles, i want her to realise it's a very minor thing in the grand scheme, and eat her toast.  

when something serious happens i will talk for longer, it's not like i dismiss every time she's upset as drama, but i think my response SHOWS her perspective.  Your toast is the wrong shape?  oh well.  you're missing your non-resident father?  I'm sorry, you'll see him tomorrow, you want to phone him?  Your relative died?  Yeah that's terrible, and we're all feeling it to some degree, want to hug and revisit the topic as often as necessary?

ymmv, i guess it depends on whether one feels one's kids are looking for external guidance on scales of hardship and perspective or just a relentlessly empathic person to hear their every ill as if all were equally tragic.

Yes, I totally get and understand this.
 

Originally Posted by lizajane30 

I have to say, this doesn't fit with my vision of AP.  This sounds like CIO for the older set, and doesn't feel gentle to me.  The basic idea is the same as CIO: ignore the crying and it will eventually stop.  Sure, but at what cost?  It isn't teaching the child a better way to communicate, it's only teaching them that their needs will not be met unless they're expressed in a way that meets adult approval.  The child may be "demanding" a new waffle, but the adult is also demanding that the child speak in a certain way.  The adult is doing exactly what they're asking the child NOT to do!  I think the only way to get them to speak the way you'd like is to model it, yes, over and over again.
 

nak

IMO, what I've underlined above from your post, lizajane, is perfectly acceptable. And it IS teaching the child to communicate, becaus eyou're not indulging/rewarding him for communicating in a rude, ineffective way. That's just my take. You tolerate and indulge negative behavior, you're reinforcing it IMO.

Edited by coffeegirl - 11/22/10 at 11:53am

[mamazee]

I think it's good to empathize with them, but you can't go on and on and feed the drama.  I try to let them know they're heard, and then disengage (as much as possible if they are leg-hanger-onners, and yes my older one was.)  I at least try to emotionally disengage at that point.  What's worked for me is to let them know I'm on their team, so to speak, but then not feed it anymore, just try to behave in as relaxed a way as possible.  Gentle and kind, but relaxed.  It's kind of like when a toddler falls and then looks to you to see how strongly they should respond to the fall.  It's great to let them know you're there for them, but if you act like it was a huge injury when it was just a little fall, you're just feeding the drama.  I'm more like, "Oh no, you fell" with a hug.  Not rushing to the scene with "Ooooh NO, poor baby!  Are you ok??"

[lizajane30]

I think my words are being misunderstood still. I'm going to try again to explain my point of view.

It's clear that the great majority of you involved in this discussion think it is "feeding," "encouraging," and "indulging" bad behavior when I suggest empathizing with an upset child. On the contrary, I've said very clearly that I would not fix the problem for them (in the OP's case, re-doing the waffles) but let them know that I hear them and we could work on solving it together. 

From post #8: "When he begins to get upset, can you "translate" his screams for him by making empathy guesses:  "Oh, you sound really sad!  Are you upset because you didn't get what you wanted?  It sounds like you're disappointed that your breakfast wasn't the way you were expecting.  It can be really disappointing when we think we're going to get something and it doesn't happen.  Do you want to tell me what you'd like me to do differently next time?"  I'm not saying that you have to bring him a new breakfast or do over whatever was done wrong.  But you can let him know that you hear his disappointment and would like him to let you know how it could be better next time."

Nowhere in there did I say you should rush to the kitchen and make him new waffles.  And I tend to give empathy in a calm voice, so it is not the same as running to a hurt toddler and giving them cues that things really are tragic.  I want to point out that empathy is not the same as sympathy.

I also don't see how taking a few moments to empathize is a failure to demonstrate self-respect, as has been implied.  I think the bolded phrases below model for a child a parent's self-respect.

From post #10: "When it's your turn [to talk], focus on needs and feelings.  "I felt so frustrated this morning because I wanted to help you but I didn't know how.  I feel yucky when I'm being yelled at.  When I hear yelling I want to cover my ears--and then I feel sad because I can't hear you and help make things better.  Now that you've told me what was wrong, I'd like to try again tomorrow because I want everyone in the family to get their needs met if possible."

Maybe part of the difference between my perspective and other posters' is that I don't think of my children's behavior as good and bad.  It is simply human behavior that is used to meet a need. Yes, some behaviors are ineffective and some of them meet my needs (for calm, love, appreciation) more fully than others.  But I don't think my children are trying to "get away with bad behavior" when they lose it over something big or small.  I think they're young and inexperienced and need help remembering which behaviors we'd like them to use.  In the end, though, I firmly do not believe that I can control someone else's behavior (much as I would like to at times!), only my own.  My children are no exception to that.  I can control them in the short term by using some means to "extinguish undesirable behavior" but the cost to our relationship, and their emotional growth, is too high for me.

I also think that many of you are of the opinion (some have stated so explicitly) that parents must "be in control." I find in our family the dynamic is much more peaceful and respectful if we can use power together rather than the adults exercising power over the children; thus my suggestion that the parent ask the child to express ways that things could be more satisfactory next time round.  Sometimes my DS makes requests that I'm not willing to do, for whatever reason (but never because I fear it would "undermine my authority"--I'm always willing to hear new information, including someone's feelings about my decision, and change my mind) and I will say so to him: "I'm not willing to go make you another waffle right now, but [fill in another suggestion that might be acceptable to child]."  I don't believe that negotiating is giving away authority, and I do believe that negotiation is a useful skill for my children to learn.

Again, this may be a case of "agree to disagree," because I'm guessing I'm not going to convince you all, and I'm sure not going to stop empathizing with people since my experience has been that it's respectful, fulfilling for both parties, and effective in forging true connection. 

[LemonPie]

Originally Posted by lizajane30  (bold italic my response, still having issues. . .)

I think my words are being misunderstood still. I'm going to try again to explain my point of view.

It's clear that the great majority of you involved in this discussion think it is "feeding," "encouraging," and "indulging" bad behavior when I suggest empathizing with an upset child. On the contrary, I've said very clearly that I would not fix the problem for them (in the OP's case, re-doing the waffles) but let them know that I hear them and we could work on solving it together. 

I understood clearly that you weren't saying that you would give into the tantrum.  Respectfully, I think you continue to misunderstand that some of us have children who operate differently.  In this discussion, I don't find YOUR words empathetic.  I very much sense an attitude of "well you must not be doing it right then!"  Perhaps that is not how you mean to come across, but it's what I'm getting from you.  I found this statement especially offensive:

I've never seen a child do what you're describing.  I wonder if there could be something else going on that keeps them from connecting?

If I  attempt what you describe with *my* daughter, the situation magnifies.  She gets angrier.  The tantrum escalates.  It doesn't mean that I don't empathize or 'connect' with my daughter.  It's just that I've learned that in the heat of the moment is NOT the time or place for THIS child.  My older son can sometimes be talked down this way.  My daughter has to cool off and regroup before we can address the problem. 

Maybe part of the difference between my perspective and other posters' is that I don't think of my children's behavior as good and bad.  It is simply human behavior that is used to meet a need. Yes, some behaviors are ineffective and some of them meet my needs (for calm, love, appreciation) more fully than others.  But I don't think my children are trying to "get away with bad behavior" when they lose it over something big or small.  I think they're young and inexperienced and need help remembering which behaviors we'd like them to use.  In the end, though, I firmly do not believe that I can control someone else's behavior (much as I would like to at times!), only my own.  My children are no exception to that.  I can control them in the short term by using some means to "extinguish undesirable behavior" but the cost to our relationship, and their emotional growth, is too high for me.

I suppose this is where we differ, because I do find certain behaviors unacceptable, and I see it as part of my job to teach my child how to appropriately negotiate the world.  I'm *contributing* to their emotional growth and to our relationship when I treat them with respect and expect respect in return. 

And again, I don't think anyone here was expecting perfect adult behavior from a (almost) 5 yo kid--several of us merely agreed that his response was over the top for the situation.

I'm always willing to hear new information, including someone's feelings about my decision, and change my mind) and I will say so to him: "I'm not willing to go make you another waffle right now, but [fill in another suggestion that might be acceptable to child]."  I don't believe that negotiating is giving away authority, and I do believe that negotiation is a useful skill for my children to learn.

But again, some of us here have children who don't wish to negotiate, at least in the throes of a tantrum. In that moment, there is no 'acceptable' alternative suggestion--they just want things they way they wanted them, and if that doesn't happen, then they're just going to be angry about that for a while.  The way I empathize with and respect my kid is simply to accept that fact.  We all know adults who don't want to discuss a problem in the heat of the moment, who need to retreat and cool down before they can discuss.  Why is it so UNBELIEVABLY CRAZY that a child might operate this way?

Additionally, I'm all for cooperation and negotiation when there is respectful dialogue going on.  But a screaming, kicking, hyperventilating-on-the-floor tantrum is not respectful dialogue, and YES, I expect better from my 5 yo daughter because she has demonstrated that she is capable of doing so.  She's highly verbal.  She can express to me exactly what she wants.  But she gets caught up in her anger and drama and that's it.  Show's over folks.  She simply isn't approachable or negotiable until she has calmed down--and she doesn't calm down until I disengage.  

You continue to insist that empathizing will neutralize the tantrum because then the child will feel 'heard' and 'understood'.  And yes, there ARE kids who work that way.  I think the point many of us are trying to make is that this doesn't work for EVERY child or EVERY situation.

Edited by LemonPie - 11/21/10 at 11:06pm

[oaktreemama]

I thought about this thread yesterday when my DS had a full on temper tantrum. He had a ball that he was tossing in the air. He then started throwing it at the TV. I reminded him not to do that and he turned and threw it at me. Hit me right in the head. I took the ball away.

DS turned into a small puddle of rage on the floor. There was no empathizing with him at this moment. I tried rubbing his back and he kicked me. I know he was absolutely devestated at losing his ball but I was not going to sit next to him and allow him to be violent with me. I removed myself to the kitchen and occasionally called out and reminded him I was near by.

He eventually got up, came in the kitchen and asked for a big hug which I was happy to give him.

But until he got control of himself (and I totally agree that I can't change other people's behavior) he wasn't hearing anything. I strive to be respectful of my son, and I understand his sense of loss was very real. But in this situation, DS did not care one whit that I felt bad about taking his ball.

I think empathy works in many situations. But, it was not working yesterday. And I think that is true of any method we employ with our children. Nothing works 100% of the time-that is why parenting is so hard.

[mamazee]

Also, I don't think diffusing the tantrum is always evidence of something "working".  It works to make life easier at the moment, but sometimes people need to relieve themselves of their strong emotions.  We're not talking about babies here who are crying out of hunger or lonliness, we're talking about kids crying out of dealing with very strong emotions they're new at navigating.  I sometimes need a good cry when I'm dealing with strong emotions and they aren't even new for me, and I don''t generally want people to try to stop me from crying when I'm in that place.  When I need to let it out, I need to let it out.  I do immediately empathize when a tantrum starts, and if that's what the child wants then it's there, but often my older dd (they younger one at least so far at almost 2 doesn't tantrum), just wanted to release steam.  I let her know I was there for her and would be ready for her when she was done.  After she was done, she wanted to snuggle together, and she got it.

[GuildJenn]

Originally Posted by lizajane30 

Again, this may be a case of "agree to disagree," because I'm guessing I'm not going to convince you all, and I'm sure not going to stop empathizing with people since my experience has been that it's respectful, fulfilling for both parties, and effective in forging true connection. 

I think it will have to be. Because we do empathize but what I've said (and many people have said) is that it does not help our kids past a certain point. Trust me, I live with my son and care for him and I can tell you that if two sentences of empathy do not work, there is no point in continuing. He does not want a verbal discussion at that point; he's in a more emotional, less language stage of upset and continuing just makes him incredibly angry.

And frankly as an adult I've felt the same way. I don't always want empathy. "My contest is not working right." "You must be so frustrated." Okay but fix the darn thing, or else tell me you can't. Don't empathize.

If it works for yours, that's great. If it works as a nanny/caregiver/teacher/whatever - that's great too; but the relationship is different and kids will often meltdown more with their parents at home (or out) than they do for other caregivers. There is not always a one-size-fits-all solution to parenting problems.

[lizajane30]

Originally Posted by LemonPie 

Originally Posted by lizajane30  (bold italic my response, still having issues. . .)

I think my words are being misunderstood still. I'm going to try again to explain my point of view.

It's clear that the great majority of you involved in this discussion think it is "feeding," "encouraging," and "indulging" bad behavior when I suggest empathizing with an upset child. On the contrary, I've said very clearly that I would not fix the problem for them (in the OP's case, re-doing the waffles) but let them know that I hear them and we could work on solving it together. 

I understood clearly that you weren't saying that you would give into the tantrum.  Respectfully, I think you continue to misunderstand that some of us have children who operate differently.  In this discussion, I don't find YOUR words empathetic.  I very much sense an attitude of "well you must not be doing it right then!"  Perhaps that is not how you mean to come across, but it's what I'm getting from you.  I found this statement especially offensive:

I've never seen a child do what you're describing.  I wonder if there could be something else going on that keeps them from connecting?

If I  attempt what you describe with *my* daughter, the situation magnifies.  She gets angrier.  The tantrum escalates.  It doesn't mean that I don't empathize or 'connect' with my daughter.  It's just that I've learned that in the heat of the moment is NOT the time or place for THIS child.  My older son can sometimes be talked down this way.  My daughter has to cool off and regroup before we can address the problem. 

Maybe part of the difference between my perspective and other posters' is that I don't think of my children's behavior as good and bad.  It is simply human behavior that is used to meet a need. Yes, some behaviors are ineffective and some of them meet my needs (for calm, love, appreciation) more fully than others.  But I don't think my children are trying to "get away with bad behavior" when they lose it over something big or small.  I think they're young and inexperienced and need help remembering which behaviors we'd like them to use.  In the end, though, I firmly do not believe that I can control someone else's behavior (much as I would like to at times!), only my own.  My children are no exception to that.  I can control them in the short term by using some means to "extinguish undesirable behavior" but the cost to our relationship, and their emotional growth, is too high for me.

I suppose this is where we differ, because I do find certain behaviors unacceptable, and I see it as part of my job to teach my child how to appropriately negotiate the world.  I'm *contributing* to their emotional growth and to our relationship when I treat them with respect and expect respect in return. 

And again, I don't think anyone here was expecting perfect adult behavior from a (almost) 5 yo kid--several of us merely agreed that his response was over the top for the situation.

I'm always willing to hear new information, including someone's feelings about my decision, and change my mind) and I will say so to him: "I'm not willing to go make you another waffle right now, but [fill in another suggestion that might be acceptable to child]."  I don't believe that negotiating is giving away authority, and I do believe that negotiation is a useful skill for my children to learn.

But again, some of us here have children who don't wish to negotiate, at least in the throes of a tantrum. In that moment, there is no 'acceptable' alternative suggestion--they just want things they way they wanted them, and if that doesn't happen, then they're just going to be angry about that for a while.  The way I empathize with and respect my kid is simply to accept that fact.  We all know adults who don't want to discuss a problem in the heat of the moment, who need to retreat and cool down before they can discuss.  Why is it so UNBELIEVABLY CRAZY that a child might operate this way?

Additionally, I'm all for cooperation and negotiation when there is respectful dialogue going on.  But a screaming, kicking, hyperventilating-on-the-floor tantrum is not respectful dialogue, and YES, I expect better from my 5 yo daughter because she has demonstrated that she is capable of doing so.  She's highly verbal.  She can express to me exactly what she wants.  But she gets caught up in her anger and drama and that's it.  Show's over folks.  She simply isn't approachable or negotiable until she has calmed down--and she doesn't calm down until I disengage.  

You continue to insist that empathizing will neutralize the tantrum because then the child will feel 'heard' and 'understood'.  And yes, there ARE kids who work that way.  I think the point many of us are trying to make is that this doesn't work for EVERY child or EVERY situation.

Lemon Pie,

I'm sorry my words have come across as un-empathetic to you.  It was not my intention to imply that "you're not doing it right." I merely wanted to add to what I had already said so that I could be clear about what empathizing looks like in my family.  I also never said that it's "UNBELIEVABLY CRAZY that a child might operate this way."  I said that I've never experienced it and I was genuinely wondering if there's something else going on for the child which could keep them from connecting with a parent, which I think is a good question to ask since the point of this thread is to brainstorm coping methods for dealing with tantrums.  I'm sorry you found that offensive--my intention was to gain more information so I can understand what might be going on in that situation.

I'm not sure where you read that I "continue to insist that empathizing will neutralize the tantrum because then the child will feel 'heard' and 'understood'."   I did say that empathy can often head off a tantrum, but I do agree, once the tantrum is going empathy will not "neutralize" it.  But what I am insisting is that giving empathy does not equal encouraging tantrums.  I don't see empathy as a "reward for bad behavior."  Again: I'm not against teaching children to speak respectfully and calmly.  My methods are different; I believe they will learn it if I remind them of how to do it (in this case by "translating" for them), rather than telling them that their current words and actions are "unacceptable."

Actually, in my last post I was not addressing the issue of kids whose parents say they don't respond well to empathy in the throes of a tantrum (though I did say in an earlier post that the point of my empathizing during an upset is not to solve the problem or even discuss the problem at that moment, but to connect with the child).  From post #31: "Wow, it really does sound like some of your kids are really very different than mine."  This was meant to read as "I get it that your kids don't respond the way mine do." I guess it wasn't clear--sometimes I think something is so clear in my head and I don't realize it's not clear to others. 

In my last post, I was addressing those who think that empathizing is feeding, encouraging and indulging bad behavior.  I explained why I don't believe that is true.  I also addressed why I don't believe empathizing is disregarding my own desire for respect and love; and how the power dynamic works best in our family.  I'm offering support for my point of view, which has been roundly criticized by others participating in this discussion.  I thought I was clear in my last post that this is how things work best for MY family and how things have been in MY experience.  I find it useful to hear what other families do that works for them, to see how it could work for our family.  And in my understanding, this is what motivated the OP to start the thread in the first place.
 

[GoBecGo]

Originally Posted by lizajane30 

Lemon Pie,

I'm sorry my words have come across as un-empathetic to you.  It was not my intention to imply that "you're not doing it right." I merely wanted to add to what I had already said so that I could be clear about what empathizing looks like in my family.  I also never said that it's "UNBELIEVABLY CRAZY that a child might operate this way."  I said that I've never experienced it and I was genuinely wondering if there's something else going on for the child which could keep them from connecting with a parent, which I think is a good question to ask since the point of this thread is to brainstorm coping methods for dealing with tantrums.  I'm sorry you found that offensive--my intention was to gain more information so I can understand what might be going on in that situation.

I'm not sure where you read that I "continue to insist that empathizing will neutralize the tantrum because then the child will feel 'heard' and 'understood'."   I did say that empathy can often head off a tantrum, but I do agree, once the tantrum is going empathy will not "neutralize" it.  But what I am insisting is that giving empathy does not equal encouraging tantrums.  I don't see empathy as a "reward for bad behavior."  Again: I'm not against teaching children to speak respectfully and calmly.  My methods are different; I believe they will learn it if I remind them of how to do it (in this case by "translating" for them), rather than telling them that their current words and actions are "unacceptable."

Actually, in my last post I was not addressing the issue of kids whose parents say they don't respond well to empathy in the throes of a tantrum (though I did say in an earlier post that the point of my empathizing during an upset is not to solve the problem or even discuss the problem at that moment, but to connect with the child).  From post #31: "Wow, it really does sound like some of your kids are really very different than mine."  This was meant to read as "I get it that your kids don't respond the way mine do." I guess it wasn't clear--sometimes I think something is so clear in my head and I don't realize it's not clear to others. 

In my last post, I was addressing those who think that empathizing is feeding, encouraging and indulging bad behavior.  I explained why I don't believe that is true.  I also addressed why I don't believe empathizing is disregarding my own desire for respect and love; and how the power dynamic works best in our family.  I'm offering support for my point of view, which has been roundly criticized by others participating in this discussion.  I thought I was clear in my last post that this is how things work best for MY family and how things have been in MY experience.  I find it useful to hear what other families do that works for them, to see how it could work for our family.  And in my understanding, this is what motivated the OP to start the thread in the first place.
 

But it isn't about power for us.  It is simply an ineffective way of dealing with the situation for my child if i empathise.  It isn't about making her talk nicely or meet my need to be loved (!? not really doing parenting for THAT, would be a cold and disappointing trip if i was with my kid LOL!).  It's about there is a person lying screaming and crying and gagging on the floor, how can this be remedied?  I guess another way of looking at it is that out of empathy i do what is needful for my child to feel ok again.  Even though what i do doesn't entail a lot of what looks like active empathising at the time.  Maybe some kids really DO have a massive tantrum because they aren't feeling connected with their caregiver, but mine has them because she was given the wrong shoes, her toast is the wrong shape, she has to have her hair combed (she has full rights over cut and style, i am in charge of care) and or etc. (i could go ON and on, lol).  So in the moment she doesn't want or need to "reconnect" with me, we are not disconnected.  She is upset.  A lot of the time one can't even fix the problem by doing what she wanted first time - in the waffles situation my DD would want the breakfast how she wanted it FIRST TIME, she doesn't want a do-over, she wants a time machine.

As to the previous post:

 I can control them in the short term by using some means to "extinguish undesirable behavior" but the cost to our relationship, and their emotional growth, is too high for me.

i am a bit baffled by that.  Am i to assume my child ENJOYS screaming, sobbing, gagging fits on the floor?  That she likes to feel like that and be in the throes of that?  Because she doesn't seem like she does.  I try to help her be calm and have perspective because it means she doesn't have to go on being terribly terribly upset for hours for something which needn't be a big deal, not because being so upset is "undesirable behaviour" for me and me alone.  Emotional resilience isn't a tool to make OTHER people happy, it's a means to negotiating the world without feeling like one has been torn to shreds every day.  I'm glad you feel you've found a way to keep a happy relationship and help your children grow.  Please don't assume the rest of us have lesser motivations, or lesser results, because we have different methods.

[lizajane30]

It seems like no matter what I say it will continue to be perceived as an attack on others' parenting. I'm not sure how to be more clear than my last post, that this is my experience and I understand that your experiences are different.

The OP asked for advice on coping with tantrums. I gave a different perspective than others and in post #9, OP did say "i do think you are right with the not feeling heard part. he often will say 'you didn't let me talk.'" I took this to mean she wanted more dialogue, so I supported my perspective with more information.  I *think* my last post made clear that I understand that you feel differently, and your family is different than mine. 

It's clear to me now that my perspective isn't welcome in this discussion. I wish you all the best of luck in dealing with this issue.

[EdnaMarie]

Originally Posted by lizajane30 

It seems like no matter what I say it will continue to be perceived as an attack on others' parenting. I'm not sure how to be more clear than my last post, that this is my experience and I understand that your experiences are different.

The OP asked for advice on coping with tantrums. I gave a different perspective than others and in post #9, OP did say "i do think you are right with the not feeling heard part. he often will say 'you didn't let me talk.'" I took this to mean she wanted more dialogue, so I supported my perspective with more information.  I *think* my last post made clear that I understand that you feel differently, and your family is different than mine. 

It's clear to me now that my perspective isn't welcome in this discussion. I wish you all the best of luck in dealing with this issue.

I don't think that we are feeling attacked... I just think a lot of people are pointing out that the empathizing with a tantrum can be really problematic with some children.  Not empathy per se!  Nobody is saying, "Empathy doesn't work, period, I don't listen to how people feel."  We were just pointing out that while it works with some kids, it doesn't with others, to diffuse a tantrum.  I certainly hope it works with the OP's son.

But simply saying that your advice may not work is not feeling attacked or thinking you aren't welcome.  You later posted that it's always worked for you.  Great!  It hasn't worked for me with my kids, not *in the tantrum mode*.  I do think that all children need empathy even when it's not verbalized.  Nobody's suggesting not to be empathetic in general, LOL.  Obviously... this is the GD community.

We are just saying, yes, might work, don't worry if it doesn't.

In my last post, I was addressing those who think that empathizing is feeding, encouraging and indulging bad behavior.  I explained why I don't believe that is true.

You mean, with 100% of kids, 100% of the time?  Surely you're not prepared to make a statement like that.  And a lot of us have the experience that with a certain type of child, at a certain time, this really can feed or encourage the counter-productive behavior. 

[GuildJenn]

Liza, just a few points
 

Originally Posted by lizajane30 

My son is just about a month older than yours, and we deal with this sort of situation all the time.   They're still young, still learning how to navigate in a world where they often don't have power or choice!  The only difference is, my son doesn't need to escalate his behavior because rather than seeing it as a power struggle or thinking of him as being manipulative, I make sure I've heard clearly what the upset is about, and give him the tools to express himself in a different way.

I see a lot of PPs have advised not "giving in" to the tantrum.  In my experience, this only makes a stressful situation worse.  Basically you're telling an upset child that you don't care about what they're crying about, that their feelings and needs are less important than your need to "control" your child's behavior.  I don't see my methods as "giving in."  I see them as working together to meet everyone's needs so we can all be less stressed and have a better time of it.

I found all of this a little problematic but particularly the bolded. It does depend on the definition of "giving in" but I almost never give in to tantrums in the sense of trying to fix them or continuing to talk when it's not productive...and I don't think it gives the message that I don't care about them at all.  I find it a bit upsetting that you would leap to that conclusion. It's great that your perception is that it works for your child, but I can assure you that mine just wants to, as someone said, roll the time machine back, and none of the empathy in the world is going to help with that at that point.

And sure I'd say "tomorrow I'll try to remember to ask before the syrup," but I won't treat the syrup as a huge big deal, no. I do believe part of my role as a parent is to give consistent, caring signals about what is a big deal and what is not, while still respecting that my child's emotions and views are different.
 

Originally Posted by lizajane30 

Maybe focus more on hearing him, rather than on talking with him about it?  Sometimes when I want to have a talk with my son at a time when emotions aren't running so high, he thinks he's "in trouble."  When I asked him once what that means, he said "You're going to talk and talk."  So, he thinks a talk is being in trouble and thus doesn't want to participate.

I start by asking him if he's worried he's going to be in trouble, and reassuring him that he's not; that I want to talk because I love him and want us to be able to understand one another. I bring the subject up in a way that lets him know I'm firmly on his side.  For instance, "You were so sad this morning when I brought your breakfast and it wasn't the way you wanted it.  Do you want to tell me about it?"  Or, "I want to be sure we can get your breakfast right tomorrow.  Is there anything I should know before I start making it?"  That way the ball is in his court, so to speak.  He gets to "go first" and let out everything he has festering or express needs that are still unmet.  Once you've reflected back to him what you heard and made sure you heard him correctly, you could ask him if he's ready to hear how you feel about it.  If he's not, respect that and ask again if there's something more he wants to say. 

When it's your turn, focus on needs and feelings.  "I felt so frustrated this morning because I wanted to help you but I didn't know how.  I feel yucky when I'm being yelled at.  When I hear yelling I want to cover my ears--and then I feel sad because I can't hear you and help make things better.  Now that you've told me what was wrong, I'd like to try again tomorrow because I want everyone in the family to get their needs met if possible."

Of course this isn't a magic bullet or an instant cure.  Like anything we do with our kids, it takes time for them to get it and be able to implement it themselves.  As I said in my earlier post, if we can model compassion we will eventually see it in our children too.  If we refuse to hear their requests because they're not expressed the way we want them to be, we're modeling that trying to express your needs will only cause others to isolate you and withdraw their love--and it will never teach them what we really want them to learn.

Again, same thing. This is really judgmental language. I do this with whining ("I can't hear that tone of voice") and I don't think we're modelling withdrawal of love at all.  Instead I think it is a healthy boundary. Not appropriate at 18 months, but certainly at 5.

Originally Posted by lizajane30 

Wow, it really does sound like some of your kids are really very different than mine.  It's interesting to me because as I mentioned, I've seen adults and children of all ages respond quite well to empathy!  I worked as a nanny for 15 years before starting my own family, so I feel like my experience is fairly broad; but I've never seen a child do what you're describing.  I wonder if there could be something else going on that keeps them from connecting?

One thing I forgot to mention which is really key, is that the empathy must be given solely for the sake of connection.  When I give empathy to someone who's upset, my goal is not to avoid a tantrum but to deepen my understanding of what they're going through.  Sometimes I have to think a bit to figure out exactly *what* they might be feeling and why.  My kids for sure can tell when I'm "phoning it in" and not really feeling empathy toward them--which lets them know they should SAY IT LOUDER because I obviously didn't hear them. :-)

The first bold just makes me laugh. I worked with kids for about that too - and I was such an expert on getting them to sleep! Funny thing how my son goes to bed pronto for sitters - and stays up with me. :)  But more seriously I don't think conversation goes well when you try to establish your expertise as a nanny in the face of kind, plugged-in parents who have said that your approach wouldn't work for their kids.

Hopefully by sharing this you won't be so frustrated with threads in the future. I certainly did not get from your posts that you were talking only about your family; instead I got the impression that you really think you're right -- and I wouldn't say you're wrong overall, but I almost want to film my son's and my next conflict/meltdown for you and empathize with him just so you can see what happens.

[sapphire_chan]

I assumed that Lizajane was talking about how to respond to the crying and carrying on that can often proceed a tantrum. When the child is, comparatively, in control, but is just having trouble expressing wants and needs.

And by responding in that window between fine and tantrum, hopefully averting the total break down into tantrum.

Ｌｉｚａjane, please let me know if I'm totally wrong!

[Juvysen]

My dd's been doing the same thing.  She'll be 5 in January.  Today I asked her if she wanted a whole pb sandwich or a half (usually she only wants half).  She said whole.  I even double checked "you sure you want a whole sandwich?  She was very clear.  Out comes the whole sandwich to the table and she FLIES OFF THE HANDLE.  Crying and flailing and doing the "poor me!" routine.  Seriously, it's half a sandwich too much.  If you don't want it all, don't eat it all!  She starts telling me that I misunderstood her and it's all my fault. 

My routine response lately has been "you have X choice or Y choice.  Pick from those."  So for instance with the sandwich situation "you can eat half of it, or you can eat all of it, but please calm down and pick one."  *sigh*  She also had a fit today because she wanted me to help her take a shower today (she is capable of doing it herself) while I was busy with something else... my reply was "ok, well, I'm busy right now, so you can either wait til I'm not busy or you can do it yourself, but those are your available choices."

I see it as her trying to figure out where her control is and where the boundaries are... just like she did as a small toddler, but now she has a more sophisticated vocabulary to go along with it. 

[EdnaMarie]

I worked with kids for about that too - and I was such an expert on getting them to sleep! Funny thing how my son goes to bed pronto for sitters - and stays up with me. :)

Can I just thank you for saying this?  I wish it were in your signature, heh.  My pet peeve is people who think they know about kids because they were nannies.  They may know about a lot of kid-related stuff the rest of us have to learn from scratch... but it's the EASY stuff, somehow.  The hard stuff, the babysitter rarely deals with.  Even the nanny.  There was a great article I read about a woman who'd trained tens if not hundreds of children to use the toilet.  She had a 100% record for training before 2 1/2, as they were in her care throughout the day.

She had her own two close together, though... and she had two in diapers for two years (one ending after the age of three).  The nanny curse, LOL!  Except, not laughing.  Eeek!

[lizajane30]

So if someone has worked as a nanny they shouldn't ever draw on that experience to talk about what they find useful in certain situations when someone has specifically asked for advice?  I'm a parent just like you, but because I also worked as a nanny I'm no longer qualified to consider someone else's situation?  Wow.

Originally Posted by EdnaMarie 

I worked with kids for about that too - and I was such an expert on getting them to sleep! Funny thing how my son goes to bed pronto for sitters - and stays up with me. :)

Can I just thank you for saying this?  I wish it were in your signature, heh.  My pet peeve is people who think they know about kids because they were nannies.  They may know about a lot of kid-related stuff the rest of us have to learn from scratch... but it's the EASY stuff, somehow.  The hard stuff, the babysitter rarely deals with.  Even the nanny.  There was a great article I read about a woman who'd trained tens if not hundreds of children to use the toilet.  She had a 100% record for training before 2 1/2, as they were in her care throughout the day.

She had her own two close together, though... and she had two in diapers for two years (one ending after the age of three).  The nanny curse, LOL!  Except, not laughing.  Eeek!

[lizajane30]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan 

I assumed that Lizajane was talking about how to respond to the crying and carrying on that can often proceed a tantrum. When the child is, comparatively, in control, but is just having trouble expressing wants and needs.

And by responding in that window between fine and tantrum, hopefully averting the total break down into tantrum.

Ｌｉｚａjane, please let me know if I'm totally wrong!

Yes, you're right.  Thank you.

[LemonPie]

Thank you Lisajane for your words above.  Apology accepted. 
 

Originally Posted by lizajane30 

So if someone has worked as a nanny they shouldn't ever draw on that experience to talk about what they find useful in certain situations when someone has specifically asked for advice?  I'm a parent just like you, but because I also worked as a nanny I'm no longer qualified to consider someone else's situation?  Wow.

Again, respectfully, for me part of the problem is that you HAVEN'T said, "Hey here is what  I found useful in this situation" or "here is what has worked for me with my kid (or the kids I worked with)".   What I saw repeatedly was an insistence that your way was the right way, extensive directions for doing things your way,  and criticisms for those parents who said that they found that disengagement worked better for them (for example, calling disengagement CIO for older kids, and implying at we were stunting emotional growth in our children).  In fact, you made sweeping statements like the one below:

Quote:

I worked as a nanny for 15 years before starting my own family, so I feel like my experience is fairly broad; but I've never seen a child do what you're describing.

I don't think anyone is denying that your experience as a nanny is useful.  I think the problem came in when you used it to back up your own position that ALL of us were wrong because it contradicted ALL your 15 years of experience.  There was no respect for the fact that these are OUR children who live in OUR homes and that we know them intimately.  And again, respectfully, children behave differently for their parents than they do for nannies and babysitters.  They just do.

[lizajane30]

Originally Posted by LemonPie 
you made sweeping statements like the one below:

Quote:

I worked as a nanny for 15 years before starting my own family, so I feel like my experience is fairly broad; but I've never seen a child do what you're describing.

LOL, this isn't exactly what I'd call a "sweeping statement."  I said I've never seen it in my experience, which includes time as a nanny.  That's a statement of fact.

[EdnaMarie]

I assumed that Lizajane was talking about how to respond to the crying and carrying on that can often proceed a tantrum. When the child is, comparatively, in control, but is just having trouble expressing wants and needs.

My understanding was that the OP and a lot of us deal with sudden, flash-flood type tantrum situations that just appear out of nowhere.  It's pretty uncanny, in fact, LOL!  So while this is great, as many have noted, for a rational child, it does not apply when you have a 3 - 6 year old creating drama literally at the drop of the hat.

Originally Posted by lizajane30 

So if someone has worked as a nanny they shouldn't ever draw on that experience to talk about what they find useful in certain situations when someone has specifically asked for advice?  I'm a parent just like you, but because I also worked as a nanny I'm no longer qualified to consider someone else's situation?  Wow.

"no longer"

"shouldn't ever"

These are all emotionally-charged, absolute phrases that I did not use anywhere in my posts.  My posts were not about you, or whether or not you should or could offer advice.  My posts--and most of the posts here, if you re-read them--are about the specific advice you offered, and how it may not apply, based on the poster's personal experience.

I suggested that nannies may feel their experience applies to parenting much more than it actually does.  That doesn't mean they can't join in the discussion, just that nannying experience isn't always relevant.  You think it is.  Okay.  We disagree.  :shrug:

I think that somewhere along the line, you felt like you were being attacked, and you are responding emotionally to that.

Nobody is disregarding your experience, or suggesting that you not comment.  Your experience, like mine, is what it is.  I thought we were all sharing our own perspectives and experiences here.  Yes, people disagree with language that implies that expressed empathy can always work, because "always" is a very strong word.

That is okay, they can disagree without you feeling like they want you off the board, right?

Don't take it so personally and you will see it's really an ongoing discussion here, where everyone is welcome.