C Mason (mostly) "education" and "parenting" -- feeling like a failure

[Momma Aimee]

I have been reading a good amout of C Mason.  I find her "education" to be more of a "parenting" style and also to be very -- "child lead" and the

But I am either confused, or a faliure (or both)

I totally get, and agree, that the mother that takes time when the kids are young to instill in them good habits paves for herself an easier time later -- 100% agree.

I 100% agree that it is a question of consisentcy and never letting things slide "just this once".

But -- uh all her writting seems to assume this is simply done by "expecting it" (in fact in one place she SAYS it is enough to give an instruction and simply expect it to be followed).  OK are my kids just rotten?  i mean, really they seem very loving and kind and attentive BUT they are a constant "battle" to keep on track and just saying "X" and sitting there smiling and expecting it -- LOL there is a good chance a screaming moneky would race past you and bounce on the sofa, NOT got fetch clean socks pre the request.

and also things i have never allowed to slide, even once, they contine to engage in.  no 6 to 8 weeks to a good habit.

i am just wondering if anyone else feels like a failure?

--- reading abotu Montessori or Waldorf -- leaves me feeling the same way.  My boys are loving and generally "good" but they are not peaceful and calm and do not "discover the mysteries of math or the world" or whatever alone -- they can't light candles, or sit in silences or ......

so is it ME? 

Mason, Montessori and Maldoft all SOUND great but in the real life applications -- jsut seem almost like a fairy tale or fake or something --

all the education styles that seem to be "allow the child to learn on their own" jsut seem to be for children that are nothing like mine.

Again C Mason, i love a lot of her stuff, but i read it and I can't help thinking "if you only met mine" (course i just read 2 books by M Monterssori and felt the same -- LOL).

so it is just me?  are my kids the only ones that the quiet and simply "expect obedence and get it" apprach doesn't work?? 

[happy1nluv]

I'm no help... I read along and totally agreed with everything you wrote.  I have boys too (5, 3, 1).  I know they're young... but my answer is... its you and me both?!?  :)  (Alternatively, I was just talking about this with a mom with 2 girls (5, 2) and her kids totally fit that mold - they just "do" according to her... it's nothing she does knowingly - or nothing she was going to share anyway)

[425lisamarie]

I'll be your friend LOL. Seriously, I cannot subscribe to a certain philosophy of anything because we are always drop-outs and I end up feeling like a failure.  I read a lot, but honestly I dropped the help books and just started going with what feels right to me with each kid. 

My 4.5 year old is a little fairy.  A little of this a little of that, always lots of doodling and story telling.  She is happy doing ANYTHING learning, structure or play wise, if I do it with her or tell her to.  :lol she is my perfect little everything and everything is always happy. 

My 6.5 year old literally tells me out loud he does only as much as he has to so I don't get mad at him :lol.  But I go up to take a shower and I find him programing his lego mindstorm, making HUGE addition/subtraction charts on the white board, or making stacks of 2-3 digit numbers and adding them all up.  He is a whiz, has DH's negotiating skills which drives me nuts, and is VERY set in what should happen every minute of the day.  He needs to know everything and gets bored easily and hates "easy" stuff.  He started out running, never crawled even and he is the same in every sense!  ANd he is very sensitive. 

They are SO different, and taking the CM approach to the fullest doesn't work with either of them. It's too scatter brained for me.  I just try to go with them.  I try to make things as interesting as I can and let them lead me to a certain extent.  But I DO need to accomplish a certain amount.

[CCJWGM]

I like some of the tenants of CM but do think it's really important to realize that she WAS NOT a mother.  She never had children.  She was homeschooled but never did homeschooling.  I do not believe Steiner (Waldorf)  had children either.  Also, Charlotte Mason, Steiner, and Maria Montessori all developed their educational ideologies in a world that is not the world we live in today.  So much is different now that they didn't even imagine.  Montessori did have a child but her educational research was focused on teaching the unteachable, which she did very well.  Not many people have children labeled as unteachable anymore because it is a different world.  Their world also had no tv, internet, or the environmental problems we have now. 

I think it's fun to read what CM and Steiner have to say though.  That way I can pick and choose what works for me and my children.  Although I do have to say that I still carry around a lot of Waldorf guilt.  DD is reading now (self taught).  She just started.  She does letter crafts.  That makes me a big Waldorf failure.  I'm sure if I read more CM I would be a big CM failure as well.  I think my only goal right now is not to be a homeschooling failure. 

[Greenmama2]

Originally Posted by beezer75 

I think it's fun to read what CM and Steiner have to say though.  That way I can pick and choose what works for me and my children.  Although I do have to say that I still carry around a lot of Waldorf guilt.  DD is reading now (self taught).  She just started.  She does letter crafts.  That makes me a big Waldorf failure.  I'm sure if I read more CM I would be a big CM failure as well.  I think my only goal right now is not to be a homeschooling failure. 

Lol @ homeschooling failure. This is good advice thiough. "unschooler with an interest in Waldorf" probably describes me most correctly. Some days I definitely feel a failure at both. On good days (like today) I recognize that it doesn't actually matter. That reading widely and taking ideas that work for my children and I and letting go of the guilt about anything that seems like a good idea but doesn't work for us is enough.
As far as the parenting/discipline side goes, these ideas are from along time ago and (yes, this is the unschooler in me speaking) it might be helpful to replace. "instruct and expect" with "share and trust". If I ask DD to get a clean pair of socks from the bedroom and a crazy monkey runs past and jumps on the couch I might remind her about my request and then remind myself to trust that she actually wants to "do the right thing". Generally she does it eventually

[Lisa1970]

Which Charlotte Mason book did you read? 

I highly recommend taking all you have read, and act like it is a buffet. Take away what you like, leave behind what you don't. Then go for it!!!

[Momma Aimee]

thanks eveyone

i am feeling better remembering

1.  Mason never had children

and

2.  she dealt vith school aged kids

my son is normally a differnt child at ST 2x a veek -- the silly moneky is at home (mostly) so i have to assume that she never deal vith the over tred "late to bed" 3 year old, or the "grandma comes tonight" hyper 5 year -- and thinking abotu THAT makes some of it feel better

Edited by Momma Aimee - 11/20/10 at 7:29am

[LuxPerpetua]

Are you a perfectionist by chance?  I only ask because I definitely am and I find I deal with a lot of guilt and feelings of failure when my child doesn't match up with whatever expectation I've just read about.  I have in my head that if I'm not doing everything perfectly I'm messing up my child who is the most precious possession I have the responsiblity of taking care of.  I go away a lot from MDC feeling like a total failure because my child plays with plastic tinkertoys and blocks, eats sliced American cheese, and drinks undiluted juice.  Are some of her toys toxic?  Probably.  But I grew up with far worse toys and here I am still ticking.  We live in a messy world and we can only give it our best shot.  So, here are some :hug from me to you. 

Like Beezer and another poster, I'm a Waldorfing unschooler at the moment leaning toward being a Waldorfing Classical Unschooler at some point later on.  I love the aspects of Waldorf that give our home more peace and family culture and I loathe those aspects that feel unnatural and contrived.  My dd is the one who announced to the shocked preK Waldorf teacher at the Waldorf Faire that she could already spell her name and proceeded to do so.  Right now dd is obsessed with drawing and writing.  I have tried engaging her in other activities to "balance her out" via the Waldorf method and they haven't worked, so I've just gone with it because one can only resist a river for so long.  And that makes me happier.  I've generally found that learning (and life in general) can't take place according to a linear process.  It's far messier, erratic, more up and down.  I wish my child cherished the $100 custom-made Waldorf doll that I lovingly gave her last year for her birthday, but honestly, she doesn't really like her much and there's nothing I can do about it.  With that said, she does respond well to some aspects of Waldorf so we take what works and let go of what doesn't.  Using the example you gave about the socks, I have learned from Waldorf that I really have to work with dd physically at this age still rather than just "expect."  If I needed dd to get her socks, I'd ask her to get them, and sometimes she might actually do it or she might get distracted along the way.  If she didn't I'd either get them myself or with dd, or I might try and turn it into a story, like "Let's pretend I'm a mama bunny needing to put fur on your paws."  I know you weren't asking for this specifically, but basically I was just trying to say that I think CM's methods, according to how you described her expectations, would be out of line for this age group.  I actually think a lot of Waldorf thought for the under-7 crowd is great, or at least it has worked fairly well with my dd.  I really like how Waldorf stresses imaginative play, nature walks, getting involved in household work, and gross motor skills for this age.  I don't expect more than that for my dd so when she does do something academic it's like icing on the cake and when she doesn't, I'm not disappointed.

I've only encountered CM second-hand and she didn't speak to me when I did.  I can totally foresee short lessons of a variety of subjects driving both my child and myself nuts.  And narration?  Surely, you jest.  My dd, knowing her personality, would hate hate hate that.   So, even though some methods work really well for some kids, they can totally NOT work well for others.

[PGTlatte]

Whenever I read any book suggesting that a homeschool day begin with circle time and goals for the day, or perhaps prayer and saying the pledge, etc, followed by a morning walk, then writing in nature journals, and then a few quiet hours of bookish study..... I feel .   I am a mom to two little men who tend toward wildness and feed off each other's energy and honestly it is like roping the wind to get them into anything that looks better than lawless chaos.   I feel like a winner if I get one doing something educational on the computer while the other one shreds play doh and pounds glitter into it ..... followed by one doing some work with me at the table while the other runs around in a costume waving a light sabre....I can't imagine them doing anything as civilized as what I read in any of the books about the CM approach (or WTM, or TJEd, or any others).  I have officially stopped reading books on homeschooling.  My kids don't fit and I end up feeling like a huge underachiever.  

I'm better off if I just keep plugging away doing what works for us each day.  What makes me feel better is keeping a notebook of our older son's work, and a log of his progress, and looking it over every few months - then I am impressed with what we are getting done.   I do enjoy taking some ideas from books but not trying to fit our kids into someone else's ideas of how our day should go. 

[AngelBee]

Originally Posted by Momma Aimee 

I have been reading a good amout of C Mason.  I find her "education" to be more of a "parenting" style and also to be very -- "child lead" and the

But I am either confused, or a faliure (or both)

I totally get, and agree, that the mother that takes time when the kids are young to instill in them good habits paves for herself an easier time later -- 100% agree.

I 100% agree that it is a question of consisentcy and never letting things slide "just this once".

But -- uh all her writting seems to assume this is simply done by "expecting it" (in fact in one place she SAYS it is enough to give an instruction and simply expect it to be followed).  OK are my kids just rotten?  i mean, really they seem very loving and kind and attentive BUT they are a constant "battle" to keep on track and just saying "X" and sitting there smiling and expecting it -- LOL there is a good chance a screaming moneky would race past you and bounce on the sofa, NOT got fetch clean socks pre the request.

and also things i have never allowed to slide, even once, they contine to engage in.  no 6 to 8 weeks to a good habit.

i am just wondering if anyone else feels like a failure?

--- reading abotu Montessori or Waldorf -- leaves me feeling the same way.  My boys are loving and generally "good" but they are not peaceful and calm and do not "discover the mysteries of math or the world" or whatever alone -- they can't light candles, or sit in silences or ......

so is it ME? 

Mason, Montessori and Maldoft all SOUND great but in the real life applications -- jsut seem almost like a fairy tale or fake or something --

all the education styles that seem to be "allow the child to learn on their own" jsut seem to be for children that are nothing like mine.

Again C Mason, i love a lot of her stuff, but i read it and I can't help thinking "if you only met mine" (course i just read 2 books by M Monterssori and felt the same -- LOL).

so it is just me?  are my kids the only ones that the quiet and simply "expect obedence and get it" apprach doesn't work?? 

I have so much to say! lol  It may take me a bit to formulate my thoughts. :)

:hug  Hang in there!

 

[moominmamma]

This reminds me of a discussion I was at way back in the mid-70s when I was about 11, when a group of Japanese Suzuki violin students came and performed at a Suzuki workshop I was part of. Their parents and teachers had come with them, and one of the events surrounding this cultural exchange was a support discussion for North American parents. The Japanese kids were all amazingly precocious, incredible musicians, very advanced and the American parents were keen to pick their parents' brains for all their secrets. One of the American parents asked the panel of Japanese parents "Your kids obviously practice a lot. How do you motivate them to practice?" The Japanese parents didn't really understand the question. There was some re-stating and re-translating. Eventually a somewhat mystified Japanese mom offered up a response of sorts: "I don't understand this problem you're asking about. My son knows it makes me happy when he practices. So he wants to practice. Why wouldn't he?" American jaws fell open around the room.

This was a generation and a half ago when the cultural divide between Japan and the west was almost as wide as the Pacific itself. These days it would be different: I suspect the Japanese moms would understand the question quite well nowadays.

Anyway, it sounds to me like the Charlotte Mason parenting advice is coming across a similar cultural/historical divide. Give yourself a break. It's just not realistic for most families and most kids these days.

Miranda

[crunchy_mama]

sorry my thoughts are jumbled here this new format is frustating!

 I am also of the opinion that you takes what works and leave what doesn't.  The thing is with reading about the various methods there are so many wonderful ideas there is no way to implement them all.  You have to pick what works for you and your own kids.  

I agree with others that I think Mason is referring more to school age children and only having children in a school setting and not at home completely changes the dynamic.  

[Mama Shifra]

Another "fact" that I picked up from Ambelside Online is Charlotte Mason was addressing upper middle class parents in her writings.  People with nannys to take care of their children and presumably maids to take care of their houses (maybe even cooks).  I don't know about you, but I am the maid, nanny, cook and teacher in this household (with a little help from my husband and children).  While we admittedly have things that they did not have, like washing machines, we are working much harder than upper middle class mothers did 100 years ago.

As far as strict obedience is concerned, are you sure that's is really what you want?  After all, Nazi soldiers obeyed their superiors, but were still prosecuted for crimes against humanity.  I, for one, want my children to think and act morally, not blindly follow orders.  We live in a different time period and cannot educate our children just as people did 100 years ago.

As far as Montessori is concerned, I read in The Montessori Controversy by John Chattin-McNichols that children who go to Montessori schools have less creativity than children who go to regular schools.  This was written by a Montessori educator! T that thaSo the  There are disadvantages to a Montessori education that is acknowlegdged even by supporters.  And in this day and age, creativity is vital.  So we cannot just blindly follow educational theorists from a different age and expect it to suit today's educational needs.

Originally Posted by beezer75 

I like some of the tenants of CM but do think it's really important to realize that she WAS NOT a mother.  She never had children.  She was homeschooled but never did homeschooling.  I do not believe Steiner (Waldorf)  had children either.  Also, Charlotte Mason, Steiner, and Maria Montessori all developed their educational ideologies in a world that is not the world we live in today.  So much is different now that they didn't even imagine.  Montessori did have a child but her educational research was focused on teaching the unteachable, which she did very well.  Not many people have children labeled as unteachable anymore because it is a different world.  Their world also had no tv, internet, or the environmental problems we have now.  

[Dillpicklechip]

Aimee, I agree with many of the others here...some of CM's ideas are very helpful in planning our homeschooling journey, but you have to keep in mind that she was writing in a different time altogether, when honestly I think it was easier to expect obedience from children because obedience was everywhere in the culture, which was highly structured. Today things are different. Don't beat yourself up because your home doesn't conform to the standards of 100 years ago. None of us meets those standards, and that's totally okay!

That said, I do like CM in general--I think she had some great ideas, and I love her emphasis on spending time outside in nature especially. But if you read her original writings it becomes clear that her original audience is not people like us, but women who had nannies and maids and had the time to devote themselves entirely to their children's training and education. For example, I think she mentioned going outside with the children for no less than 6 hours a day--well wouldn't that be nice, if the house could clean itself and supper could cook itself while you were gone!

[raelize]

Originally Posted by Dillpicklechip 

Aimee, I agree with many of the others here...some of CM's ideas are very helpful in planning our homeschooling journey, but you have to keep in mind that she was writing in a different time altogether, when honestly I think it was easier to expect obedience from children because obedience was everywhere in the culture, which was highly structured. Today things are different. Don't beat yourself up because your home doesn't conform to the standards of 100 years ago. None of us meets those standards, and that's totally okay!

That said, I do like CM in general--I think she had some great ideas, and I love her emphasis on spending time outside in nature especially. But if you read her original writings it becomes clear that her original audience is not people like us, but women who had nannies and maids and had the time to devote themselves entirely to their children's training and education. For example, I think she mentioned going outside with the children for no less than 6 hours a day--well wouldn't that be nice, if the house could clean itself and supper could cook itself while you were gone!

yours doesn't cook itself? well, if you read blah blah blah by charlotte mason, you will see that if you politely, but firmly ask the chicken, it will fry itself...

seriously, i have an almost 5 y.o. dd who is truely Queen Elizabeth reencarnated.  not in terms of the regal bearing, but the demands and expectations for others to cater to her every whim...well, i can't explain it any other way.

i love a lot of charlotte mason, but i don't know how to force dd to do the work.  and honestly, i don't want to learn to force her to do anything.  i actually want to encourage her independent attitude.  NOt so that she is rude, but i want a kid who is able to stand up for themselves.

we are heavy into CM, but i agree with others, you have to take what works for your kids. 

 

[Reebekah]

just want you to know that you are SO not alone...i have boys (5, 3, 1) that are the same way.  that's why i consider myself an eclectic homeschooler....i use whatever i think will work best, and if it doesnt work then i just try something else instead. 

[Momma Aimee]

thanks again ladies -- all good point.

more later.  :)

[PreggieUBA2C]

Aimee, I've read all the books and then some. I thought I do classical home-ed., then Charlotte Mason, but it turns out that due to my own philosophical worldview, I have created a bunch of free-learners. All of my insistence on freedom of the individual from coercion and force has really ensured that there will never be a mama-imposed methodology for my dc, lol. I am completely happy with that. I'm an autodidact, so why shouldn't I assure the same freedom for my children?

Pop over to the unschooling board if you're interested. Lots of us ended up there from where you are now. :)

[newcastlemama]

I can relate...I love CMs ideas but just seem them as ideas....What I take away from it is: lot's of outside time, do you best work, short lessons, living books, and focus on character...But I feel like our life is mostly unschooling (I like to call it Spirit-led learning  )

I can't force my kids (myself!) into a pardigm either. I think that is the weird thing about the interenet and reading books about people's lives....I don't know anyone in real life "perfectly" lving out any great philosophy in parenting, food, education ect. even if they are really into it.  I think we picture other families doing everyhting "right" and our family is a "failure".         

[Lillian J]

The main thing that strikes me is their ages - I see that one turned 5 within the past month, and the other is 2 years younger than him. So it seems to me that, in addition what others have mentioned, expectations put on them and yourself are somewhat unrealistic at this point.

I can't imagine having asked my son to keep on any sort of "track" at that age. He had a couple of hours a day at a Waldorf kindergarten, but the most demanding part of his time there was sitting still to hear a fairy tale. There were some little girls there who sat during art time and drew lovely little pictures of fairies and flowers and things, but he'd take those beeswax block crayons and build little trains with them - he would also crawl under or across the table. He never meant to be uncooperative at all - he was always the kind of polite and mild mannered child who meant to please - he was just doing the best he could under the circumstances. But he was able to fit right in when he attended a different kind of school at age 7 - and the bottom line is that he went on to learn quite effectively, to do well in community classes in his teens, and to be a very capable student in college. He's exceptionally mature and responsible in his young adult years, and is making a great life for himself.

So - what I'm getting at is that it can help to glance ahead from time to time to ask oneself what the point is of various expectations in those early years. I used to worry about all sorts of nonsense, and none of it was realistic! At those ages, I'd suggest just enjoying and delighting in the spontaneous play they come up with, and adding in your own fun suggestions and leadership as you go along - it can take unnecessary stress off of everyone, and those few years of early childhood will fly by into ages when more focused activities will fit. Those few years will fly by anyway, but you might as well fully enjoy them instead of feeling they should be spent in some other way.  ;)  Lillian