How to talk circumcision w/ a husband who is pro-circumcise - Page 3

[eclipse]

Originally Posted by mrsberman 

We aren't finding out what we are having, but when we were TTC I brought up the issue. DH wants the baby to be circ'ed if it's a boy and I don't. I know that the big hospital around here won't even allow parents in the room when it's being done and I'm COMPLETELY against that. My friend had a boy and she thought he was going for his nb shots (yea, I know) and he came back without a foreskin. She and her husband wanted it done, but I couldn't get over the fact the hospital would go and do it without saying that's what the baby was leaving the room for.

I'm not sure how I can get to DH about not circumcising but I think if I insist that we both have to be there, the baby has to have some sort of numbing done (my mom drove 2 hours to find a dr who would do this on my little brother and he still cried) and he has to completely research the pros/cons then he might change my mind, but we both know that won't happen.

But would you actually go through with it if he met all your demands? If you won't, then it's a bad idea to try to manipulate him into agreeing with you. I think it's more effective to say "Over my dead body" as many times as necessary.

[TyrantOfTheWeek]

I just can't imagine gawking over my adorable newborn baby and saying "Aww, he is perfect. Well, except for that. We need to cut that off."

[arihillfarm]

Originally Posted by TyrantOfTheWeek 

I just can't imagine gawking over my adorable newborn baby and saying "Aww, he is perfect. Well, except for that. We need to cut that off."

Sadly, my sister in law said just that. My poor nephew had to not only go through circumcision (after a week long stay in the NICU) and being home for another week, he had to go through a revision when he was almost a year old because "they didn't do it right".  When I saw him being changed after the second surgery, he almost looked intact.  Poor kid had to go through all that pain for basically nothing.

-Astrid

[rabbitmum]

Wow, I'm so glad I have never had to deal with this kind of discussion .

As a European I have been shocked again and again by this practice. Needless to say neither of my two sons (22 yo and 4 yo) is circumcised, and obviously neither has had any problems or worries with their foreskins. The same goes for everybody I know. I don't know a single person who would even vaguely consider doing this to their child, and I have never heard anybody mentioning any foreskin problems, UTIs in boys (they are really rare, you know!), or any hygiene worries. It is a non-issue. We don't even "wipe like a finger". The only cleaning that happens with my 4 yo's penis, is that he sits in the bath with it every two or three days. This was also true when he used diapers, except when he got poo everywhere. (But I am assuming that the idea of not even washing the penis might sound extreme to people who are used to the thought that the foreskin is unhygienic, and that the least one should do is to retract it and clean underneath it, so perhaps it is better to stick with the "wipe as a finger" idea to not sound completely crazy and lose prospective non-circumcisers that way...? )

I'm sorry, but I think the "idealistic" argument that no one but the owner of the penis has the "right" to decide, is a bit construed. Why isn't it a good enough reason that circumcision is a painful, horrible, unnecessary procedure done against a small defenceless child? It is no better than torture. Plus it can potentially kill the baby, or do lasting damage. What other reasons do you need?

I am wondering whether a person who can think it is ok to strap a baby down and cut their most sensitive part without sufficient anastheisa, has actually ever experienced any real pain that they can remember. If they do understand what it is like to feel horrible pain that you can't escape from, and they still want to do it, I have no words that can describe how cruel I think this is.

It is illegal in my culture to slap, pinch, pull hair, or do anything else that causes unnecessary pain to your child. And to think that the US, which believes itself to be among the most civilised and advanced countries in the world, performs this kind of torture on newborn babies! Look at which other countries have a high circumcision rate. They are not the kind of developed countries that the US thinks it is similar to. But, actually, many of those other countries have the excuse that they have a population that is less educated, poor, misinformed, etc. The US has no excuse, you have access to all the information in the world.

You moms have the responsibility for protecting your babies. It doesn't do to leave the decision to anybody else, including your husbands. Since you are the one who knows that circumcision is painful, pointless, and wrong, it is your responsibility to make sure it doesn't happen to your baby. In the case of circumcision there is actually one side that is right and one that is wrong. It is not possible to compromise.

Just say no.

Sorry if I'm being harsh, but this is how crazy routine circumcision is from a European point of view.

[TyrantOfTheWeek]

Originally Posted by rabbitmum 

Sorry if I'm being harsh, but this is how crazy routine circumcision is from a European point of view.

That is how crazy RIC is to this Midwestern United States born mama point of view too. And the "I was young and dumb" thing I hear a lot doesn't really fly with me either. I was 19 when my first son was born and there was no way in h*ll I would consent to ANYTHING without researching it first. I got through maybe 45 seconds of a video of one and that pretty much made up my mind.

[kawa kamuri]

Originally Posted by TyrantOfTheWeek 

That is how crazy RIC is to this Midwestern United States born mama point of view too. And the "I was young and dumb" thing I hear a lot doesn't really fly with me either. I was 19 when my first son was born and there was no way in h*ll I would consent to ANYTHING without researching it first. I got through maybe 45 seconds of a video of one and that pretty much made up my mind.

I was nineteen when my first was born as well but it was ten years before your first. We didn't have videos or information like there was in 2004. I, personally, didn't even have access to the resources that I do today in 2004. Many parents have done research and have not necessarily made the best choice. They trust their highly educated doctors, are perhaps too poor to afford internet and computers or any number of scenarios. I think your judgement is short-sighted. 

[rabbitmum]

Daisy and Kawa, I do agree that individuals can been misinformed or not informed, even in the US. As such they may have made their choice on a faulty foundation. I didn't mean to blame individuals who do not know better. I was more referring to it on a culture level. US as a culture has all the information in the world, still this custom continues. It is a paradox.

[TyrantOfTheWeek]

And I didn't mean to offend. I have just never been one to follow the *rules* or trust anyone. Bad in a lot of ways, but good in this instance.

[erigeron]

I didn't offer my husband a choice or make it a group decision. I said "No way is this happening to my kid. He can decide for himself when he gets bigger." (This was way in advance of actually getting pregnant.) My husband didn't have strong feelings pro-circumcision so that was the end of it. We did discuss why I felt the way I did. If he had been very pro-circ I imagine it would have been a fight but I would have held at "No way is this happening to my kid".

[malayasmommy]

I don't think "defend" is the right word, as I don't feel "attacked" at all, but rather discuss my views on letting my husband have a say in what is happening w/ the circumcision.  A lot of that is I guess, based on trust that my husband will come to the right (read: "MY" decision ha ha) once he is informed.  I agree that it's probably best to not say "do your research but in the end YOU decide" and I appreciate the feedback I've gotten in regards to that.  I am now planning to phrase it differently (i.e. "do some research and let's come back and talk" instead).  My husband and I are very much CO-parents--I work in the evenings, he works during the day so essentially since my daughter has been 7 weeks old he has shared hugely in parenting responsibilities that have historically been more of a "mother's" responsibilities.  And I LOVE this, I think it sets a wonderful example for our daughter and the son that we will have.  Just like in almost all of our other decisions, this one is about co-parenting as well.  I rarely, if EVER, say "over my dead body" to my husband when he disagrees with my opinion.  I feel that if I expect him to hear ME, then I need to listen to what HE says.  That doesn't mean that I agree with him, but it means that I need to be open to what he is saying.  I feel that if I just say "NO, over my dead body, end of discussion" it also closes us off to discussing WHY it is such a sensitive issue with him and it might open us up to talking about "I love you just the way you are, circumcised or intact it wouldn't matter" and could actually HELP our relationship.  This is a dynamic of OUR relationship, maybe not others, but I don't think it's as cut and dry as "don't do it or we get a divorce".  If he does the info and still says "I still want to do this" then more needs to happen in terms of our discussion, and like I said I am positive that I will not just lay down and say "Well, OK".  Anyway, lots of things have been said in this discussion which is WONDERFUL!  I appreciate all the feedback!  Nonetheless, I felt it important to discuss why I chose to view this from the angle I am.    

[erigeron]

I very rarely pull out the "Over my dead body" line. I save it for circumstances where I believe very firmly that this HAS to happen (or not happen) THIS way and it HAS to happen at this certain time and there are NO suitable compromises... and I think that this qualifies where few other situations do.

But I'm certainly for trying other approaches first.

IIRC, I asked him how he felt and he didn't seem to have strong feelings and that's when I said "Well, I absolutely don't want to circumcise" and he shrugged and said okay. So not quite the same situation.

[eclipse]

Yeah, I wouldn't pull the "over my dead body" line until I felt like I had to. I'm all for letting some one come around on their own time - but if they never come around? Well, then "over my dead body" as its place. Luckily for me, dh didn't care at all in the beginning, and then became at least as pro-intact as I am.

[buckeyedoc]

Part of the problem in the USA is that medical doctors publicly promote circumcision. Just in the past couple of weeks, people on this forum have pointed out Dr. Oz's pro-circumcision national TV show and a pro-circumcision mass e-mail from WebMD to expectant parents. For me, circumcision never sat quite right, because I can't believe all newborn males need genital surgery in order to be healthy, but some other parents hear about all of the "health benefits" of circumcision from MDs and figure that must be the objective truth, so they don't think they need to do any more digging for information. Anyone anti-circumcision must be a wingnut. On top of their fear of having a kid that is somehow "different", the doctor's advice is taken as gospel. It's very frustrating, because we all know that most doctors do have a dog in this fight and an interest in believing that circumcision is not harmful (they are personally circumcised, perform circumcisions, and/or have circumcised sons).

[Lit Chick]

With DS1, I assumed he would be circed b/c his father is, and I thought that was something the man should decide.  But while prepping for the birth and doing all my homework about my options, I thought, what the heck?  I'm not even thinking about that?  So, I did my homework and went totally anti-circ. 

My husband found the Penn and Teller Bull$hit video upsetting, and thus it was helpful to me.  I also bombarded him with articles and such, most of which he refused to read.  As a circed man, he was sensitive to anything that said or implied he had been harmed, or that his penis was now damaged.

I found that Circumcision: A History Of The World's Most Controversial Surgery was the most helpful book, because it was not emotional.  I copied passages, or read bits aloud to him, and basically just wore him down. 

For quite a while, he would make remarks that let me know he would have preferred DS1 to be circed, but it was not worth fighting me.  I was a little irritated, as I hoped that he would be anti-circ rather than indifferent, but my boys are intact and that's the important thing.  BUT - two of my friends have boys.  One has 2, the other 3.  All of them are circed.  And each of them has a son with a botched circ.  One boy needed an extended hospital stay and a tranfusion because he lost so much blood.  I had to change that poor little guy's diaper a few weeks after he was home, and it looked like they took way too much off (I've seen dozens of circed newborns).  My other friend's boy had an uneven job that caused lots of pain - and then her ped told her to retract the remaining skin with every diaper change - the poor child was in agony (and my friend was horrified when I told her what she was doing).  He ended up having a second circ to correct the mess, but he's also not "normal" anymore.  After my DH saw the one little boy and heard about the other, he stopped making stupid remarks.  He might still not be anti-circ, but I think he's glad our boys never had to go through that.

[mrsberman]

Originally Posted by eclipse 

Originally Posted by mrsberman 

We aren't finding out what we are having, but when we were TTC I brought up the issue. DH wants the baby to be circ'ed if it's a boy and I don't. I know that the big hospital around here won't even allow parents in the room when it's being done and I'm COMPLETELY against that. My friend had a boy and she thought he was going for his nb shots (yea, I know) and he came back without a foreskin. She and her husband wanted it done, but I couldn't get over the fact the hospital would go and do it without saying that's what the baby was leaving the room for.

I'm not sure how I can get to DH about not circumcising but I think if I insist that we both have to be there, the baby has to have some sort of numbing done (my mom drove 2 hours to find a dr who would do this on my little brother and he still cried) and he has to completely research the pros/cons then he might change my mind, but we both know that won't happen.

But would you actually go through with it if he met all your demands? If you won't, then it's a bad idea to try to manipulate him into agreeing with you. I think it's more effective to say "Over my dead body" as many times as necessary.

I'm not sure if I actually could go through with it. I could never manipulate him into getting what I want, but I can stick to my argument that if the baby is a boy he can always get it done when he's older, but it can never be put back on. I did bring up FGM when we first discussed circumcision and he was appalled and said that is wrong. I said what if it were DD and that was the "norm?" He hated that too and said it was different. After explaining that to me it's not different and that circumcision takes away nerve endings and feeling I could see he was thinking about it. We're at 20 weeks now so there's still a lot of discussion to be had.
 

[TyrantOfTheWeek]

Originally Posted by erigeron 

I very rarely pull out the "Over my dead body" line. I save it for circumstances where I believe very firmly that this HAS to happen (or not happen) THIS way and it HAS to happen at this certain time and there are NO suitable compromises... and I think that this qualifies where few other situations do.

But I'm certainly for trying other approaches first.

IIRC, I asked him how he felt and he didn't seem to have strong feelings and that's when I said "Well, I absolutely don't want to circumcise" and he shrugged and said okay. So not quite the same situation.

Yep.  This has no compromises. You can't half circ.

[sosurreal09]

before i ever got married i gave DH all the info on why i never want to circ our sons (future) he still feels like they will be made fun of and wont look like him...now 68% of Americans didn't even circ last year and i think hes becoming more confident that it will be "ok". I explained to him that cutting ANYTHING off of any of my children period is grounds for not getting married or getting a divorce. i would never do anything to a daughter down there and i will never to a son. its that simple. IMO circ is not only wrong but a disgusting and horrific act to force on anyone let alone a newborn baby.

you have to research. "look at this hunny, i found info on how to properly clean a a penis that hasnt been circ'ed" "oh and look most men have problems from being forcibly retracted as babies, that explains a lot of issues that men may have if they werent circ'ed, possibly even my brother, so as long as we properly care for our intact son and make sure ANYONE who changes him, even his Dr knows NEVER to RETRACT his penis he will be fine."

i saw a onsie the other day that i loved it read "If boys were meant to have foreskins they'd be born with them"

so basically bombard him with info about how its sooooo much better for the baby not to be circ'ed. all of the benefits he will reap in life. i mean really whats more important for him to look like DH or for him to be happy, whole, and have all his nerve endings?

i know my DH has a huge scar on his penis from his circ and he can't have a really big O no matter what...i dont think thats fair. im pissed for him even if he thinks its fine. \

also my nephew was circ'ed and they messed it up he has like half of a crooked foreskin now...

AND if you plan on Breastfeeding circ can interfere with that big time.

http://www.drmomma.org/ lots of info on staying intact and a mothers apology to her son for circ'ing him

[mattemma04]

If you birth at home it will be easier to not circ. What happened to your brother was the norm in a time when circ rates were very high. Are there any other cases of amputation to treat an infection? Unless your flesh is rotting off doctors generally try to save all parts. It has not been till recent times that there was even an acknowledgement that circumcision damaged the male(and female for that matter) genitals.You lose a lot more than a little flap of skin.

When you consider the reasons-really consider them-you realize how silly they are.My dh wanted to do it for similar reasons-he was,it was a religious/cultural/social thing. Sorry no go for me and I don't need a penis to say that no one is cutting my boy or girl anywhere on their body.My ds is 8 now and never had an issue with his gentials.He can always cut himself later,but hopefully he will not do it until he gets to experience sex with his  normal penis.

Best wishes for your little one whatever you decide to do!

[NewSolarMomma]

I agree with the OP about husbands feeling like they're penises are inadequate because you don't want to circ your son. Many men are very sensitive over their penises- understatement of the year- so it might help to remind him that his is "perfect" for you, but that the next generation of women will be used to intact men instead. If he feels like his is GREAT, it will make your success convincing him more likely. For this reason, don't mention mutilation or other negative terms.
Edited by NewSolarMomma - 1/3/11 at 10:46pm

[Pirogi]

Originally Posted by rabbitmum 

As a European I have been shocked again and again by this practice. Needless to say neither of my two sons (22 yo and 4 yo) is circumcised, and obviously neither has had any problems or worries with their foreskins. The same goes for everybody I know. I don't know a single person who would even vaguely consider doing this to their child, and I have never heard anybody mentioning any foreskin problems, UTIs in boys (they are really rare, you know!), or any hygiene worries. It is a non-issue. We don't even "wipe like a finger". The only cleaning that happens with my 4 yo's penis, is that he sits in the bath with it every two or three days. This was also true when he used diapers, except when he got poo everywhere. (But I am assuming that the idea of not even washing the penis might sound extreme to people who are used to the thought that the foreskin is unhygienic, and that the least one should do is to retract it and clean underneath it, so perhaps it is better to stick with the "wipe as a finger" idea to not sound completely crazy and lose prospective non-circumcisers that way...? )

This was/is how we dealt with DD's cleanliness too.  I figure it's a lot harder to keep a little girl's parts clean than an intact little boy's parts.  I never even wiped inside her labia with a wet wipe.  If she had poo in her folds, she went into the bath for a few minutes to just flush it out.  But I agree with you re: not "losing" folks who would prefer more invasive genital cleaning.