Normal? How do I handle these situations?

[seaheroine]

Lately I've found myself in several situations involving DD1 and other children, and am not sure how to navigate them, and if it's normal, age-appropriate behavior I can expect to run into with my own children in a few years.  Since my eldest will be three next month, I just don't have a lot of interaction with other, much less older, children.

My niece is 5, and a friend's daughter is 4.  DD isn't around either very often, only very occasionally.  I recently watched the 4yo while her Mom went out for a lunch with some friends.  There is a squirting water toy that both my DD and the 4yo really like -- they used it once in the sandbox this summer and her friend hasn't been over since then, but the friend remembered it as soon as she arrived and asked to play with it.  Remembering the squabbles it caused last summer, I told them that since it was noisy we weren't going to be playing with it, since the baby was sleeping.  I put it up on my dresser in my bedroom.  About ten minutes later, DD's friend came and asked again if they could play with it, and I repeated that since the baby was sleeping, it wasn't a toy that could be played with right now.  Another ten minutes pass and I hear the 4yo whispering to DD to go get the toy off my dresser.  I hear DD respond that she can't reach it, and came around the corner to find DD looking uncomfortable. 

A similar situation happened earlier in the week with her cousin.  My niece tortures their cat, chasing it around, pulling its legs and tail, and generally trying to irritate it.  I've brought it up several times but it seems like no big deal to her parents.  So 5yo niece kept inviting DD to chase the cat, and I told them several times to leave the poor cat alone, that they might hurt her leg, etc.  Then, as soon as I left the kitchen, I hear my niece whisper to DD to come find and chase the cat with her.  Again, I return to the kitchen and repeat that they need to leave the cat alone, and again, DD is standing there looking somewhat confused and uncomfortable.

How do I handle situations like this?  I am not used to "disciplining", or correcting - for lack of better terms - other people's children.  When I tell DD not to do something, she generally listens.  I know she is only 3, but what do you when the other children continue to implore your child to do something?

As soon as we came home, our big friendly cat wandered up and DD smacked him, completely out of the blue.    We had a long talk then and there about treating animals kindly (as she always has), but ARGH!

When the 4yo friend was over, there were a few other things.  They fought repeatedly over DD's big, favorite pillow.  First I suggested they take turns sitting on it, which they did, but then the friend went and hid the pillow.  (!)  When DD realized it was gone, I asked the friend where she'd put it and she told DD it was gone.  DH asked the friend too, and the friend laughed and told DD -- by now a sobbing, hysterical mess -- that she'd taken the pillow to her house.  DH found the pillow stuffed in the linen closet and brought it back out to the living room, where he told them it needed to stay, but again --- is this normal?  Do kids usually hide things that belong to others?

The friend also asked me if she could take multiple toys and clothes of DD's home, which upset DD.  They then fought over DD's books, and when DD offered the friend a different book, she threw it and said it was stupid, which upset DD quite a bit (again).

I know most if not all of these things are normal behaviors, but DH was really bothered by the hiding and the "stupid" incident. We're just not around other kids very often, and I'm hoping some of you experienced mama's can give us some pointers on how to handle things like this in the future.

[BFandHS]

I'm afraid that is pretty normal behavior for children who are raised in a punitive and shaming environment. 

As far as how to handle it, that is tricky.  I would keep a close eye on her when she is with other children and be ready to gently intervene.  You seem to be doing a good job, so far. 

[Juvysen]

I find that the louder my DD wails over something, the more fun other kids have keeping it from her :(  i haven't found DD doing too many of those things to kids besides her brother, though.

[chattyprincess]

Originally Posted by BFandHS 

I'm afraid that is pretty normal behavior for children who are raised in a punitive and shaming environment.

As far as how to handle it, that is tricky.  I would keep a close eye on her when she is with other children and be ready to gently intervene.  You seem to be doing a good job, so far. 

??? really, I mean your children have never done something crazy, acted and done things that you have not modeled in your own home and basically shocked you with the crap they just tried??? Sorry, I do believe this falls into a normal behavior policy. My dd turned 4 the end of July and is going through some crazy behviors at the time, and on top of that is a normal, smart, intelligent child who is developing normally by testing her boundries and learning in her own way what is right and what is wrong.

you asked if certain behaviors are "normal" or "average" or not, I find children of this age range are show offs, enjoy mimicking, pretend play and "living" in thier worlds (which means that sometimes they tell you stories that aren't true but sound so darn close to it that you are shocked at the imagination and thought that went into the pretend story)

The first child you said you only see occasionally and you watched her without her mother around. She was probably, nervous, scared, missing mom and who knows? Hungry, tierd etc...I find nothing odd about the asking to get the toy incident, if the caregivers in her life don't mean no when they say it then she knows that "no" is negotiable enough that if she gets it down she can play with it. Asking for it 2x is not out of the ordinary at all, especially if that works at home. You were watching her for a short time so really its not about teaching new behaviors, its about providing a termporiry safe, happy loving enviroment for the child to be comfortable in. Obviously her "joke" of hiding the pillow didn't go over well, if it was my dd she probably would have gotten nervous seeing your child upset and either continued with the lie scared to get in trouble or become upset and sobbing her self that her joking/teasing/being silly hiding things didn't go over well. Our dd is VERY articulate, thoughtful and knows how to get her point across, there are still times when she will scream/squeal get horribly upset that she didn't get what she wanted. Not getting the book you want and getting anotherone you had not intrest in would make dd LIVID, that is such a strong emotion and they are such little kids that they need help working through it. She lashed out(not right, but hey even adults do this) and called a name and threw the book. I would have said firmly "I know you are hurt but we do NOT call names or throw things in our house. You need to tell dd that you are sorry for namecalling, thats not kind." its  hard to on your dd to share all of her things and to be asked if they can be borrowed, maybe this is common practice with other friends of this lttle girl, who knows. I would be more intrested to hear what the mother said about the incidents. Was she shocked? upset? or did she laugh and say it happens all the time...that will be your true indicator of whether this behavior is the average every day or if it was because of the unfamilar situation.

  the Cat incident is insanity in my opinion but obviously it seems to me just a lack of thought on the parents part  of choosing to teach thier dd to treat the animal with respect. Children tend to model what they see and since you mentioned this is a freqently occuring incident I think the parents probably throw the cat around a bit (either off furniture, push it with thier feet out of the way, maybe even spanking it if it misbehaves..) so  the dd just learned it from there.

As far as my disipline of other children goes, in my own home it is MY rules. I have no problems if another child was hitting the cat to get down to thier level and say in a very firm voice "NO we do not hit animals in this house, that is NOT acceptable. You need to apologize to the cat." then I would redirect and find a new situation for the child. This applies to most situations, firm voice stating our house rules. I also say at the begining of play dates that our house rules, are no kicking, hitting, biting or yelling .Use kind voices and if they need help get a mommy. Kids at the age of 3 with other 3 generally play well with no squabbles for 15-20 min then they need an adult to step in and help find a new situation/game. at 4 they are much more time around 30 min and then someonee needs to step in. If it is a mixed age group chances are that for a time the kids will need help in remembering to include the younger ones with lots of modeling and helpful ideas. At the park when dd was 3ish we would go up to a group of kids from 3-5ish age range and say hi introduce dd and then ask what was being played, ask if dd could play, what part she could have etc...ALL children need to be taught/reminded constnatly of how to include others. The will get mischevious if left to thier own devices too long...thats just reality.

The rest of your childs life you will be combating the lovely habits she picks up from others. She will see another child acting a certain way and decide to give it a try, why not it looks fun? On top of this remember that not all parents do the same as you and they will im sure find things your dd does frutrating or annoying and be upset thier child picked it up from yours. This is just the reality of life that everyone does it different. Be forgiving and understanding where you can so that hopefully people will do the same with you.

[motherhendoula]

I dont think the question should be "is this normal behavior for a 4 and 5 yo"  but rather,  "is this typically the way they they behave?"  and the answer to that question is NO.   At some point, all parents get dragged into 'play dates' with one child or another who makes our lives far more difficult...rather than having a playmate for DD - now you have to constantly monitor these kids and make sure the cat, pillows, books etc  have a safe place to go and hide when the older girls are over.  I do not think this is 'good' behavior on the part of the older girls - and im sure you will find other friends for your DD who already know the cat is not a toy and have empathy for how someone else feels about their toys/books/pillows etc...

I also think the older girls could have been behaving worse than normal because your DD is young - testing boundaries, thinking a three yr. old would 'do their bidding' - that sort of thing - id bet another 3 yo would be a better match for a play date.

[seaheroine]

A lot of interesting thoughts --- thank you!

CP, my sister and BIL don't abuse their cat or treat it roughly.  They just seem to turn a blind eye to their daughter messing with it, or maybe they consider it normal for kids to chase it?  When I brought it up to my sister, she seemed somewhat surprised and then dismissive.  But man, watching the 5yo tug on it's leg, I about had a heart attack.  Maybe because all I could see was a serious injury for the cat.

I didn't bring the incidents up with the girl's Mom -- didn't see the need too, as all was handled and the girl definitely didn't seem upset about anything.  She bounced right on to the next activity.  That's a good point about her feeling weird about DD's reaction, though.  It definitely could have made her feel uncomfortable.  She is used to being around older kids, maybe it was stressful to be around DD.  That's a good point about negotiation, too -- I hadn't thought of that!

You're right, motherhendoula - that is a better question.  There is definitely an age-related component with my niece -- this isn't an isolated incident with her, unfortunately.  She enjoys bossing DD quite a bit, and their play definitely requires a lot of supervision for this reason alone.  She can be a bit of a bully, truthfully.  This is the first time I've actually caught her encouraging DD right after I told them to stop harassing the cat twice, though --- didn't know what to say to my niece, since I'd just repeated myself twice.

Interesting thoughts about the discipline, too.  My friend doesn't spank but definitely makes liberal use of time-outs and loss of privileges/toys.  My sister is rather punitive, though it usually ends in a back and forth between she and her DD.   I haven't really run in to too many situations with DD where discipline was needed, other than throwing sand, etc.  She just hasn't had too much interaction with older kids -- mostly younger, and limited at that.  Being that, I really just wasn't sure how (if) to handle the discreet moves to get the toy or hiding.  If my parents said something was off limits, that was it, end of story.  Til I was a teenager, of course.  LOL.

[BFandHS]

Originally Posted by chattyprincess 

??? really, I mean your children have never done something crazy, acted and done things that you have not modeled in your own home and basically shocked you with the crap they just tried???

Now that you mention it, I guess they have.    I did not mean to imply that such behavior necessarily means that the child was raised punitively and/or shamed.  I'm sorry to have come across that way. 

[AllisonR]

I think some kids will almost always act like this, some kids will nearly never act like this, and some kids will fall somewhere in between. And occasionally everyone has a bad day. However, this seems like a clearly repeating pattern, and a lot of work for you OP to constantly have to monitor.

My thought is, that if you rarely have play dates, and then these are the play dates you do have, then I can't imagine these being the best learning, or playing, experiences for your DD. So I would look at finding other play dates for your DD. Maybe one or two kids that are also around your DDs age.