My parents vax'd DS (long, sorry)

[smeep]

My parents have joint medical custody (I forget the technical term for it)...I signed it three years ago when I went out of town for a week and a half and left DS with them. I left it that way for various reasons. I've been staying with a friend since my ex basically kicked me out (will be moving back in with my family soon) and in the meantime DS has been staying with them since he goes to the school my mom works at, it's just how it's worked out.

Yesterday I touched DS's leg and he goes, "Ouch! Be careful, I got shots on my legs." I asked him about it. He seemed slightly reluctant at first but when I asked him to describe it he said he got two shots on his legs and that it didn't hurt but the needles were big. I asked him if he got it at school, he said no. Then I asked if he got it at the doctor and he said yes. I didn't even know that they took him to the doctor recently...clearly they had no intentions of telling me. I confronted them. My mom said he got vax'd for the flu and tetanus (DS did say it was only two shots, so I have a good feeling my mom wasn't lying)...my dad says that he hasn't been vax'd before that. I'm leaning towards believing him, but I can't be sure (I will be requesting his medical records as soon as I can to make sure). 

I couldn't make a big deal out of it (even though it IS a big deal) because I'm so close to moving in with them and with a baby on the way and no job or money, I don't really have a choice. We have many, many issues so the fact that they're willing to let me move in with them is a tremendous step. When I confronted them I listed a few nasty chemicals, the deaths and reactions from the vax being higher than that from the diseases, so on and so forth. I didn't spend too long on it because I didn't want to (I can't) piss them off.

I told my dad I felt completely violated. I have let SO many other things slide (including the fact that I recently found out they've been feeding him meat for who knows how long and I said nothing because I have to pick my battles right now). This is the exact reason why at the beginning of the pregnancy I wasn't sure if I would have them at the birth (they were at DS's), why I was concerned about them being around the baby, etc. I told my dad that. He even said he had some "misgivings" about the vax, so I strongly believe it was my mom's idea and that he just went along with it (she, also, was the one who was a little concerned about my decision to not vax; primarily tetanus and polio, whereas my dad was a little more trusting and even told me he wished he'd had access to all that info when we were kids). I told them that if they had at least COME to me about it, if my mom had said, "I feel he needs these vax's because [insert reason here]," I could have presented the information on why I decided NOT to give those vax's...and that I would have been willing to compromise if I had to.

So, I will be giving them some basic info on the two vax's, which is where I need help from you guys, please. (Oh, and, seriously...the FLU?! She vax'd him against the FLU?!?! I told them, point blank, they injected him with tons of chemicals purely for convenience.) Anyways, so here is what I need. I need basic simple info on the risks of the diseases vs. the risks of the vaccines, as well as the occurrence of the diseases, so on and so forth. And how exactly tetanus is contracted, the likelihood of that, etc. And the effectiveness of the vaccines. And anything else you can think of. 

Thank you if you've read this far...haha... I just had to get it out. 

ETA: The way DS talked about it, it seemed like they told him not to tell me...and, if that's the case, I think his "ouch" reaction to my touching his legs was really just an excuse to tell me. On the other hand, the way he was about it could have just been because he knew I wouldn't take it well (obviously I didn't take it well, but I made sure not to show it to DS). He's a very smart child and has always been very good about detecting feelings and acting appropriately. 

[dakotablue]

No advice I am so sorry though. It sounds like your in a tough position.

[Ravensong13]

If you have joint legal( I'm thinking this is what you mean by medical) then they should not be able to have him vax'd without your permission. Is there a time limit on this agreement with them? Can you have it changed back now? I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this. I'd talk to your son's ped office and tell them they are not to give any more shots without your okay from here on out.

[caned & able]

Whatever you do, do it before your new baby comes.  You will be too busy then.

[Xerxella]

I'm so sorry you're in this position.  I would defintely contact your child's doc and explain your position.  Also, send a letter saying no one, but you, has the right to X.  Ask them to put it in the file.  I would also be very concerned about the idea that they're putting your son in such a "don't tell mommy" position.  It's toxic for all around. 

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

Get the medical thing reversed so this cant happen again.

[grahamsmom98]

Forget trying to explain the ingredients of vaccines or the risks of the diseases.  That isn't relevant to the discussion.

They violated your parental rights.  They violated your trust.  They encouraged your son to lie to you (who knows what threats or fear-mongering they used on him?)  And, it sounds like you are unwilling to confront them about any of this. 

You said, "I couldn't make a big deal out of it..."..."..."...."..."

WHY NOT?!  If you really feel this passionate about your child's safety, why wouldn't you confront them soundly and strongly??  There is no way in hell I would let this subject drop.     

All that being said, you live separate from your son (you don't say how long this has been going on).  With your permission, your son has been living with them since he attends the school where your Mom works.  You authorized medical decision-making over to them years ago and never repealed it.  You said there have been many things you have let slide.  You have no idea how long they have been feeding him things counter to your choices.  They took him to the doctor without your knowledge.  There is obviously a pattern continuing with their care of your son and you said you have remained silent about much of it.  Silence generally implies acceptance.  It sounds like they are simply taking over the parenting that you easily handed over to them.    

You say you have no job, with another baby on the way, so you need to move back with them.  Why?  Where is your son's & unborn baby's father to help with the financial aspects of the children's care?   

If you do move in with your parents, then you better get used to the fact they will continue to oversee the care of your son as they see fit.  And, you can bet your life they will do the same to your new baby.  Time to either accept this or find your own place.    

This issue isn't about vaccinating.     

[changingseasons]

Originally Posted by grahamsmom98 
    

It sounds like they are simply taking over the parenting that you easily handed over to them.    

If you do move in with your parents, then you better get used to the fact they will continue to oversee the care of your son as they see fit.  

This issue isn't about vaccinating.     

  Your son is living with them, not you, and you gave them legal authority to make medical decisions for him.  You either need to tack back YOUR right to parent your own child, or let them do it, and make decisions as they see fit.

[smeep]

Originally Posted by grahamsmom98 

And, it sounds like you are unwilling to confront them about any of this. 

You said, "I couldn't make a big deal out of it..."..."..."...."..."

WHY NOT?!  If you really feel this passionate about your child's safety, why wouldn't you confront them soundly and strongly??  There is no way in hell I would let this subject drop.     

It's not that I'm unwilling to confront them, it's that I can't if I want to have a place to live. I have confronted them and I will be discussing it with my mother. I will see what I can do about putting a no-vax note in the file (my dad works at the clinic that DS is seen at, but seeing as he's not gung-ho on vax's I think he may just look the other way and pretend not to notice it). I don't know how long it will take to reverse the medical thing, so I'll do this in the meantime. Normally I would never let it drop and they would not have anything to do with DS ever again until they could prove that I could trust them, but I just have no choice.

Originally Posted by grahamsmom98 

All that being said, you live separate from your son (you don't say how long this has been going on).  With your permission, your son has been living with them since he attends the school where your Mom works.  You authorized medical decision-making over to them years ago and never repealed it.  You said there have been many things you have let slide.  You have no idea how long they have been feeding him things counter to your choices.  They took him to the doctor without your knowledge.  There is obviously a pattern continuing with their care of your son and you said you have remained silent about much of it.  Silence generally implies acceptance.  It sounds like they are simply taking over the parenting that you easily handed over to them.   

I didn't easily hand over anything. It was a horribly tough decision. I literally had NO choice. I am couch surfing right now and have been since September. I couldn't put him through that. I've let the other things slide because there's nothing I can do about it (and, frankly, I have a feeling they've been feeding him meat for a long time; when I was working crap retail hours they watched him when I was working hours that he wasn't in school). It's literally a matter of picking my battles. I hate it, I really, honestly do. It's kind of always been that way. Hopefully I can pull them into counseling with me soon, but with all of this a huge part of me wants to take my children out of their lives' forever, but I can't do that to DS. This baby may not know better, but it would break DS's heart.

Originally Posted by grahamsmom98 

You say you have no job, with another baby on the way, so you need to move back with them.  Why?  Where is your son's & unborn baby's father to help with the financial aspects of the children's care?   

If you do move in with your parents, then you better get used to the fact they will continue to oversee the care of your son as they see fit.  And, you can bet your life they will do the same to your new baby.  Time to either accept this or find your own place.    

The reason why is because, if I don't, I will be on the street. DS's biodad bailed out when I was 3 months pregnant. He doesn't pay child support, he's never met DS, he's totally out of the picture. This baby's father is an abusive alcoholic. I was living with him and the situation became dangerous (he left me stranded in a dangerous area at 4am with no money, no food, no working cell phone, nowhere to go, nothing, and that's just one example of things he did). I had to leave...and that meant couch surfing. I do not trust him to help financially and, frankly, I'm seriously considering just disappearing and not telling him where I am or anything about the baby because I am worried about the baby's safety around him. 

If I had any other choice, I would take it. I only just recently asked them if I could move in. I left it as a last resort. But there's nothing I can do. There's no public housing, I've applied to who knows how many jobs with no luck (and my options are limited because I CANNOT work retail hours anymore; I was barely scraping by before as it was, but if you add in the cost of a daycare that will take a kid on weekends and as late as midnight on any given night....NOT gonna happen). 

This is not something I take lightly. I am livid. But I have to keep calm as possible. I am bipolar and in the past I was out of control (I would flip out over little things)...just the fact that I pressed the subject at all, they started acting as if it was part of my bipolar coming out. I tried explaining to my dad the next day that it's not a matter of me being bipolar in this case...I'm pressing it because it's a matter of complete disrespect and disregard to the fact that I'M his mother, not them, and the fact that I didn't make those decisions lightly and I didn't waste hundreds of hours researching it for nothing. I reminded him that if my bipolar wasn't under control I would have been screaming, yelling and throwing things. Frankly, I handled it FAR more calmly than most people without any kind of mood disorder! I did it because I had NO choice...but there was no way I was going to let it completely slide either.

I really am livid...and I'm heartbroken. My decision was completely ripped from me. And this also means that I can't let them be alone with this baby. Just when I was finally thinking I might be able to trust them with this baby and now I can't. I'm actually reconsidering even having them at the birth. I wanted so badly to have my parents there, but there's a reason why I was hesitant about it for so long. It really hurts.

[smeep]

Originally Posted by Ravensong13 

If you have joint legal( I'm thinking this is what you mean by medical) then they should not be able to have him vax'd without your permission.

I'm relatively certain this is true, but I need to go look at it and see what I can dig up. But I think this is the case...that they can't make non-emergent decisions without my joint agreement. If so, the pedi is DEFINITELY going to hear about that. I don't care if my dad works with them or not...they are going to get an earful, as is the director of the clinic.

[chaoticzenmom]

Normally, I'd be really upset on your behalf for this.  The thing is though, that they are acting as custodial caregivers to your son.  The other option is for him to couch surf with you.  I think I'd trade some vaccines for my child to have a secure/stable home (assuming that's why you left him in their care).  Now, you're going to have a new baby and move in with them?  I'm wondering why it's taking awhile for you to move in with them?  Why not just let you stay there with your son?

You don't need to get angry or anything.  You really just have to make the decision to either leave your son with them or not.  They're going to care for him the best that they can which means meat and selective vaccines.  You cannot parent him without being with him. 

I hate to even bring this up because I know that avoiding vaccines is a good decision (it's my decision as well), but you haven't shown that you are able to make good decisions in your life.  How are your parents going to trust that this is truly the best thing for your son?  What kind of parents were your parents?  Are they parenting your son the way they parented you? 

On one hand, you cannot get to be a kid and an adult.  If you live with your parents, you have to do things their way.  But, them helping you does not give them ownership over you and your children. You're not being bought, you're being helped.   You're going to have to find a way to get independant real quick. 

Are you not able to get low-income housing?  For how long will your children be with your parents? 

[smeep]

Originally Posted by chaoticzenmom 

Normally, I'd be really upset on your behalf for this.  The thing is though, that they are acting as custodial caregivers to your son.  The other option is for him to couch surf with you.  I think I'd trade some vaccines for my child to have a secure/stable home (assuming that's why you left him in their care).  Now, you're going to have a new baby and move in with them?  I'm wondering why it's taking awhile for you to move in with them?  Why not just let you stay there with your son?

I hate to even bring this up because I know that avoiding vaccines is a good decision (it's my decision as well), but you haven't shown that you are able to make good decisions in your life.  How are your parents going to trust that this is truly the best thing for your son?  What kind of parents were your parents?  Are they parenting your son the way they parented you? 

Are you not able to get low-income housing?  For how long will your children be with your parents? 

It's taken a while because it really was a last resort due to the issues we have with each other. I was looking into everything, trying to find a job...nothing. I didn't even ask until now, and when I first started staying with my friend they wouldn't have let me stay with them even if I asked. But I'm moving in within the next few days.

My mother has issues...control issues, she never totally understood my vax decision (although she was okay with most of it, but had concerns about polio and tetanus)...my dad, on the other hand, is pretty much in agreement with me. He just went along with it to avoid conflict with my mom, I think. (I blame him, but at the same time I don't...it would be like poking a dragon with a stick, haha.) My parents actually parented me VERY similarly. They vax'd us (though, as I was doing the research, my dad did say he wished that he'd had access to all the info that I did)...but other than that, we're very similar. No spanking, no CIO, homebirths, breastfeeding, etc. That's why I don't understand why they would do that.. it's not like I go completely against them with everything! 

No low income housing at all...that's one of the many options I've been looking to in the time that I've been couch surfing. My children will be with my parents until I can get a job and move out. But I will be moving in with them in a few days and at that point DS will be with me 100% of the time that he's not in school. 

[rcr]

Originally Posted by MCatLvrMom2A&X 

Get the medical thing reversed so this cant happen again.

This is not exactly how it works in practice. I have medical POA for my mom and have never ever been asked for it when making medical decisions for her, including a DNR order that would make her die (or continue to die). It's all legal in my case (she has Alzheimer's), but the point is that I would be able to do that kind of stuff anyway because nobody has ever questioned me. I don't even know where the paperwork is right now (under my bed?). Even if the grandparents did not have legal medical authority, they could still take the kid to the doc and get him vaxed.

[cyberfish]

I'm so sorry this has happened to you, mama.  It is a complete violation of your trust.  I think you need to take steps to make your life different so this does not happen again.

You say you cannot work retail hours because of daycare.  If you and your son are already at your parents' can you consider this at least temporarily, since your parents will already be watching your child?  A lot of places are hiring extra holiday workers right now.  And most doctors' offices are closed at night so they probably wouldn't be making appointments at, say, 8 pm if you're working at the mall.  And definitely get the medical custody thing reversed and put copies of it in your child/children's charts.  My mom used to clean doctors' offices at night.  Sometimes we'd have to go with her.  Not fun, but we were with mom. 

School may be the best long term option but Otto is right about the academic fiscal year.  Colleges tend to run July 1 -- June 30, as far as their fiscal years are concerned.  But...now would be the time to get going on financial aid apps for fall.  Even an associates degree would give you more marketability, in theory.  And yes, I have a bushel of higher degrees also and may be facing unemployment in June, so I recognize school is not a fix all.  But think...a degree in accounting might let you work from home, for example, so you could be with your kids.  A nursing degree wouldn't let you work from home but you could probably get a decent paying job easily.

I've been a community college professor and I've had huge numbers of young single moms in my classes, all striving for a better life.  Many of them had good financial aid packages.  A lot of professors will let your kids come once in a while as long as they're not disruptive.  And the single moms formed a community amongst themselves, a support system if you will.  You might visit your local community college and just talk with someone in financial aid and someone in admissions about what kinds of options there are.  These are people who want you to succeed, if school is what you want.  Some community colleges have on campus daycare and some of them are sliding scale all the way down to free for the most indigent.  It might need to wait until the next academic fiscal year but you could get a good aid package that will help you with rent, books, tuition, everything. 

I understand you feel violated and I'm so so sorry for all you've been through. 

[MeepyCat]

On the joint medical thing:  Given the way you describe it (that you gave your parents "joint medical custody" when you went out of town for a week and a half), what they probably have is a letter from you authorizing them to seek appropriate medical care for your son.  If that's the case, it's easy to change.  Write a letter specifying that you no longer authorize them to seek medical care for your son, and send a copy (possibly notarized) to the school and to any clinics or hospitals where they've gotten your son treated.  Done.

However, if you do this, they may no longer be willing to care for your child as they have been doing.  I would be very disturbed to have a kid in my custody who I could not take to the ER or to the doctor if needed.

From the description, it sounds like your folks have been taking your DS for his well-child visits, and making sure that has the necessary medical forms filled out for school and camp and such.  If you have not filed paperwork for a religious exemption from vaccine requirements, and there is no existing medical contraindication, vaccines are required for school enrollment.  They can't just pass up the tetanus jab and the MMR and still send your kid to school.  The flu is optional, but if you didn't discuss it with them, I can see why they may have made that choice.  

Your situation has certain trade-offs in it.  You cannot ask your parents to, essentially, take custody of your child, and still expect to make all the decisions.

[amnesiac]

I have removed several posts from this thread which were either in violation of our guidelines or which were responses to such posts. Please be respectful of each other and do not post to take direct issue with another member's behavior. In order for this thread to remain open here in the Vax forum, discussion needs to remain on-topic regarding the vax issue specifically. If you wish to continue discussing other issues such as education or housing assistance etc., please do so privately or start new threads in the appropriate forum.

[philomom]

Originally Posted by grahamsmom98 

Forget trying to explain the ingredients of vaccines or the risks of the diseases.  That isn't relevant to the discussion.

They violated your parental rights.  They violated your trust.  They encouraged your son to lie to you (who knows what threats or fear-mongering they used on him?)  And, it sounds like you are unwilling to confront them about any of this. 

I agree. I know you are in a tough spot but you need to separate from them if you can't trust them.

[chaoticzenmom]

Originally Posted by smeep 

Originally Posted by chaoticzenmom 

Normally, I'd be really upset on your behalf for this.  The thing is though, that they are acting as custodial caregivers to your son.  The other option is for him to couch surf with you.  I think I'd trade some vaccines for my child to have a secure/stable home (assuming that's why you left him in their care).  Now, you're going to have a new baby and move in with them?  I'm wondering why it's taking awhile for you to move in with them?  Why not just let you stay there with your son?

I hate to even bring this up because I know that avoiding vaccines is a good decision (it's my decision as well), but you haven't shown that you are able to make good decisions in your life.  How are your parents going to trust that this is truly the best thing for your son?  What kind of parents were your parents?  Are they parenting your son the way they parented you? 

Are you not able to get low-income housing?  For how long will your children be with your parents? 

It's taken a while because it really was a last resort due to the issues we have with each other. I was looking into everything, trying to find a job...nothing. I didn't even ask until now, and when I first started staying with my friend they wouldn't have let me stay with them even if I asked. But I'm moving in within the next few days.

My mother has issues...control issues, she never totally understood my vax decision (although she was okay with most of it, but had concerns about polio and tetanus)...my dad, on the other hand, is pretty much in agreement with me. He just went along with it to avoid conflict with my mom, I think. (I blame him, but at the same time I don't...it would be like poking a dragon with a stick, haha.) My parents actually parented me VERY similarly. They vax'd us (though, as I was doing the research, my dad did say he wished that he'd had access to all the info that I did)...but other than that, we're very similar. No spanking, no CIO, homebirths, breastfeeding, etc. That's why I don't understand why they would do that.. it's not like I go completely against them with everything! 

No low income housing at all...that's one of the many options I've been looking to in the time that I've been couch surfing. My children will be with my parents until I can get a job and move out. But I will be moving in with them in a few days and at that point DS will be with me 100% of the time that he's not in school. 

That's good that you'll be re-establishing your roll as mother to your son.  Hopefully, you can gather yourself enough to set some boundaries with your parents and then get you all to a place where you can parent how you want.  it won't do you any good to get stressed out about what you cannot change right now.  

Go to this site and search "anger" or "helplessness" or anything you might be feeling. There may some good articles for inspiration.  i'm not Buddhist but i find so much in this magazine.  You may need some extra "zen" to get you through this next year or so.

http://www.tricycle.com

Also, if you're not sure what he was given, you're entitled to his medical records from the ped, so i'd get ahold of those and see what's in them.  There's nothing to gain from throwng a fit at the dr's office, but defintely get those records and have them add a note of "no vaccines per mother's request" in there. In the future of you leave for a specified amount of time, you can go online and print out and sign a medical release form for your parents and put definite dates and a vaccine exception in it.

Also, there's a good video on youtube of Gary Null speaking to a committee about vaccines.  It's long and in 3 parts, I believe.  Maybe your parents would be willing to watch it with you.

[Dov'sMom]

I haven't read the posts yet, but one thing jumped out at me from your original post even before you get to the rights and wrongs of vaccination.

Your parents told your son to hide something from you.

That is a HUGE problem. Your son needs to know that he can tell you anything, everything. The message for him should be that if anyone tells him not to tell you something he should come running straight to you and tell you immediately. For TWO reasons:

1. (The much more obvious and probably the one to raise with your parents) Abuse. Abusers are always telling kids not to tell, they'll hurt them if they tell, you'll be mad if they tell. If your son has a foundation for thinking there are things he should hide from you, then it will be much easier to convince him to hide something else.

2. Undermining you as the parent. If their message to him is that they can decide certain things are good for him and you don't have to know, that's replacing you with them as the primary decision makers in his life. Or at least giving him unnecessary confusion.

And then there's the more general issue of are they trying to teach him that if he wants to do something he shouldn't it's okay if he hides it well? We spend so much of our parenting time trying to teach kids that we don't resolve disputes by force and trying to help them internalize certain rules of behavior -- and here they are saying oh, it doesn't matter as long as no one knows about it. Huh?

[sosurreal09]

huge . my best friend was in an abusive relationship and she went to a domestic violence shelter. they are everywhere- even if not state funded. can you "prove" his abuse at all? medical records, police reports, that sort of thing? they may even take a letter from someone who witnessed the abuse.

as for the vaxing...there isn't anything you can do. when or if you move in i would explain that you want all parenting decisions b/c he's you're son and they need to respect that. its not an ideal situation...but there isnt much you can do. you are about to have a new baby so i dont see how you will get hired anywhere right now...do you get aide from the state for DS?