scheduling an appt with the ped, finally:what should I ask for?

[waiting2bemommy]

Ds got his progress report from preschool today. Before everyone jumps all over me, this is NOT about academics. He is just turning three next month and I'm not losing my mind about his ability to decode words and understand the pythagorean theorem. lol.

What i AM concerned about, is that on an entire sheet full of lessons (he goes to a montessori school) he only has ONE item mastered. Even though I KNOW he is capable of quite a few others. For example, they say he has only learned 4 letters (I know, academics, this is just the easiest example). While we were reading tonight, without prompting he began to point out letters and tell me their sounds. way more than 4. But at school they think he can't do this, because he is so busy bouncing off the walls. For heavens sake he wasn't even considered to have mastered wiping the table, something he has known how to do for nearly two years! And I don't think their standards are exceptionally high. IT's just that unless you know ds very, very, very well you would not think he can do any of these things, except talk. He talks constantly. But he is a behavior problem. He is a disruption. He steps on other people. He steps on their work. He says things like "I want to be bad. I want to hurt you. If I cut you will you bleed and cry?" THIS IS NOT MY SON. He is a sweet, charming, funny, incredibly infuriating yet the most wonderful little boy I've ever known. I want everyone else to see what I see. His teachers say he is cute and friendly but that he can't sit still, never finishes anything (and Ioi have seen what they are looking for from the kids and imo it is very age appropriate and reasonable, 5-10 minutes doing a hands-on task of his choosing) He has been removed from the morning group time at times because of his behavior.

He chews all his toys. He chews the wheels off all his cars and trucks. He chews his shirt collar. He chews the blinds. It's like having an overgrown puppy in the house. He licks things. He licks grass. He will overstuff his mouth and then let the food just fall out of it while he shakes his head from side to side. He runs up and down the hallway in the house, yelling. sometimes he throws his body against the door.  If he has anything with red 40 in it he will go completely berserk, yelling, screaming, drooling, pooping on himself, banging his head against the wall and stiffening his body. At least, that is what happened the last time he drank hawaian punch. It's not as bad if he just eats some red m & m's or something. It's been a year since our last truly horrible episode, because we are vigilant about avoiding the food coloring. He repeats everything I say. EVERYTHING. but with understanding behind it, but still, he repeats everything I say. he is incredibly sensitive. I used to think my SO played too rough with him until I was with a group of other boys and their dads. All the other dads were tossing the kids in the air, tickling them etc and ds was screaming his behind off. then 5 mintues later he totally switched, as if he is a different character altogether, and is suddenyl very friendly and happy and wants his dad to do those same things taht 5 minutes earlier he was screaming bloody murder for him to stop.

He snores all night long, and sleeps fitfully. he wets the bed frequently and is very upset about this. He refuses to wear a pullup or anything "babyish" so I just change the sheets. It's not that big of a deal to me.

I want to know what I can do to help these issues. I ahve thought of food intolerances, a sleep disorder, some sort of sensory thing (but then my question would still be what is causing ti and how do we treat it). He has never been vaxed and was bfed for 2 years. He had a good start! He has always been high needs but lately the high needs are becoming behaviros taht make him unwelcome in certain places. When something is keeping you from living your life, then I believe it is time to seek help.

I guess this is not even really about school. I could care less in the long term about a 2 yr olds progress report. But it validates my own gut feeling that something is off.

I probably have forgotten something, but before I go talk to the ped, any advice on what  to say/ask would be appreciated. I don't want to subject ds to a bunch of tests for nothing, but I would like to know what is at the root of all this. I can't go to any specialists until we see the ped first.

[Marissamom]

two things pop into my mind. one is that he sounds kind of like an ADHD kid I worked with a while back, though the kid I worked with was a lot older and his behavior was less intense, the other thing is that I know you've been dealing with a changed living situation and stress yourself, and that could be magnifying behavioral stuff. but those are just a couple of possibilities to throw out there, I'm not exactly an expert.

[waiting2bemommy]

the changes/transitions have a lot to do with the severity of the isssues for sure. However, they are always there, just at different levels of intensity.

[eepster]

A lot of that stuff sounds sensory.  I would see if you could get an OT evaluation.

[deditus]

Definitely sounds like some sensory issues to me. And with the bed wetting and snoring, I would think some food intolerance, also. They pretty much go hand in hand. Many of the therapy centers here are knowledgeable about both. I'd see what you can do to get an evaluation. Many insurances require a referral for OT evals so I'd start with your child's HCP and go from there.

[LynnS6]

Chewing clothing, "oversensitive" sound like sensory issues to me. Now, they often appear with 'other' conditions, like ADHD and autism, but they can and do appear by themselves (our son is an example of this).

Read: Sensational Kids or The Out of Sync Child

[ssh]

A lot of the behavior You descibed is normal for a two year old. Not being able to be dry all night is really normal for age 2. Some 3 year olds are still in pull-ups or diapers. High energy 2 years are all over the place and can't sit still. Many preschoolers don't do well in academic preschools. Some can only succeed in purely play based ones. My DD wasn't ready for preschool until about 3.5. She was just too high energy and wouldn't have been able to listen to some one else before then.  Only a play based preschool would have worked for her at that point.  It's terrible your DS is being labeled as "a behavior problem"  and "a disruption". In my DD's 3's class a child who couldn't sit still during circle time had the option of sitting somewhere else and looking at books. There was never any pressure to complete things. And most of the focus was on socialization and free play time. There were available activities each day but the kids could choose and there was no sigma on not finishing. The negative aggressive behavior could be from the stress of unrealistic expectations.

The snoring and fitful sleeping could be a health problem. The chewing on stuff could be the sign of a problem with one of your DSs teeth. Our DD had a couple of cavities and a chipped tooth and was chewing on her shirts because her teeth hurt. The chewing could also be a sensory issue. Some sensory seeking in toddlers and preschoolers in within normal. Behavior that would be hyperactive in an older child is normal for a toddler and preschooler. If you wanted an evaluation contacting early intervention would be the easiest way to do it.

[shnitzel]

He sounds like my brother who was finally diagnosed with sensory issues after we were convinced he had ADHD my mother has been working with him and seeing an OT and therapist and he is doing much better. It got to a point where everything went completely insane before things got better. Disruptions in his life tend to make it much worse.

[eepster]

Originally Posted by ssh 

A lot of the behavior You descibed is normal for a two year old. Not being able to be dry all night is really normal for age 2. Some 3 year olds are still in pull-ups or diapers. High energy 2 years are all over the place and can't sit still. Many preschoolers don't do well in academic preschools. Some can only succeed in purely play based ones. My DD wasn't ready for preschool until about 3.5. She was just too high energy and wouldn't have been able to listen to some one else before then.  Only a play based preschool would have worked for her at that point.  It's terrible your DS is being labeled as "a behavior problem"  and "a disruption". In my DD's 3's class a child who couldn't sit still during circle time had the option of sitting somewhere else and looking at books. There was never any pressure to complete things. And most of the focus was on socialization and free play time. There were available activities each day but the kids could choose and there was no sigma on not finishing. The negative aggressive behavior could be from the stress of unrealistic expectations.

The snoring and fitful sleeping could be a health problem. The chewing on stuff could be the sign of a problem with one of your DSs teeth. Our DD had a couple of cavities and a chipped tooth and was chewing on her shirts because her teeth hurt. The chewing could also be a sensory issue. Some sensory seeking in toddlers and preschoolers in within normal. Behavior that would be hyperactive in an older child is normal for a toddler and preschooler. If you wanted an evaluation contacting early intervention would be the easiest way to do it.

I missed that he was only 2yo when I first posted. I thought he was older, since he is being given phonics lessons already at his school.  Why isn't he mostly doing practical life works?  Putting stuff in the mouth is very normal for children under 3 yo, that is why toys labeled as safe for children under 3 has to not be a choking hazard.  Plenty of kids under 3 aren't even daytime potty learned, never mind dry at night.

[Petie1104]

Originally Posted by eepster 

Originally Posted by ssh 

A lot of the behavior You descibed is normal for a two year old. Not being able to be dry all night is really normal for age 2. Some 3 year olds are still in pull-ups or diapers. High energy 2 years are all over the place and can't sit still. Many preschoolers don't do well in academic preschools. Some can only succeed in purely play based ones. My DD wasn't ready for preschool until about 3.5. She was just too high energy and wouldn't have been able to listen to some one else before then.  Only a play based preschool would have worked for her at that point.  It's terrible your DS is being labeled as "a behavior problem"  and "a disruption". In my DD's 3's class a child who couldn't sit still during circle time had the option of sitting somewhere else and looking at books. There was never any pressure to complete things. And most of the focus was on socialization and free play time. There were available activities each day but the kids could choose and there was no sigma on not finishing. The negative aggressive behavior could be from the stress of unrealistic expectations.

The snoring and fitful sleeping could be a health problem. The chewing on stuff could be the sign of a problem with one of your DSs teeth. Our DD had a couple of cavities and a chipped tooth and was chewing on her shirts because her teeth hurt. The chewing could also be a sensory issue. Some sensory seeking in toddlers and preschoolers in within normal. Behavior that would be hyperactive in an older child is normal for a toddler and preschooler. If you wanted an evaluation contacting early intervention would be the easiest way to do it.

I missed that he was only 2yo when I first posted. I thought he was older, since he is being given phonics lessons already at his school.  Why isn't he mostly doing practical life works?  Putting stuff in the mouth is very normal for children under 3 yo, that is why toys labeled as safe for children under 3 has to not be a choking hazard.  Plenty of kids under 3 aren't even daytime potty learned, never mind dry at night.

Exactly.  What you are describing is a child who is in a setting he is not mature enough for yet.  That is why his behavior is an issue.  With that said, none of my kids were even daytime potty trained until 3 yrs. old, and it is not anything to worry about if they wet the bed for a while after that.  Chewing, well, could he be getting in some molars? 

Honestly, I thought you were talking about an older child until I looked at his date of birth in your siggy.  I can't believe a preschool would expect a child to learn the ABC's at 2 yrs. old, I mean maybe the song, but wow, that is a tough school.  I would worry more about them expecting more than the children are mature enough to manage.  Sitting still for long stretches most definately is not a skill that any 2 yr. old I know possesses.

[musikat]

The thing that popped out at me about your post was that he snores all night and sleeps fitfully. I have an older ADHD child and some of that behavior was present in him as well (he chewed his shirts and sleeves, was disruptive, etc.). A while back I read an article about how sometimes ADHD can sometimes actually be a tonsil/sleep issue. I noted that because my son has enlarged tonsils (has for years). However, he does not snore or sleep fitfully. In his case I believe it is true ADHD.

No one will diagnose a 2 year old with ADHD (at least they shouldn't!) and I truly wouldn't worry about the academics. My 3 1/2 year old doesn't know as many letters as your son. He is in his first year of Montessori as well. I would talk with your son's pediatrician about the snoring and sleeping issue asap, though. A sleep deprived child looks a lot like an ADHD child.

[Ornery]

Honestly, the majority of that behavior sounds perfectly normal for a two year old.  The words he uses about hurting others would be concerning to me but it sounds like he was exposed to them somewhere and realized they make a big impact.  Heck at 2, my youngest ds barely even spoke and had all of the other behaviors you described (minus the sensitivity to red dye).  He is now a very advanced 4 year old who loves to read and do math completely on his own (I don't believe in pushing academics at a young age).  My dd potty trained herself at 2 1/2 but my boys were both 3 or over.  Expecting a toddler (which is technically what a 2 year old is) to sit still or stay focused for very long is not a realistic goal in my world.

The one thing that really stood out was about him snoring and sleeping fitfully.  Could he have enlarged adenoids or tonsils?  My youngest ds had them and we reduced his intake of dairy products which helped a lot.  Or he might be intolerant to other foods.

I do understand being concerned and I'm sure there are other behaviors that might be concerning you that you didn't post.  I was there with my youngest but we decided to take a wait and see approach and I'm really glad. 

[waiting2bemommy]

will coem back and post mroe later hopefully, but I do hear what everyone is saying about him being just young still and needing time to mature.

As far as him being in a setting taht is not mature enough for, he has these same behaviors at school as well as home otherwise I woiuld also think the same thing.

Also while I agree that kids develop at different rates and that high energy, mouthing things and not knowing letters are pretty typical for a 3 yr odl (I say 3 because he is less than a month from his 3rd birthday), I'm looking at the overall picture. it is so hard to describe online I guess without sounding like a pushy mom. These behaviors have increased, rather than decrease. He still can focus for a long period of time but it is a rare occurrence where it used ti be very common. He's always been high needs and high energy but instead of seeing him  mature, I'm seeing him get worse. Either he is getting worse or he just isn't improving while the environment is expecting mroe of him since he is getting older.....hmmmm....gotta think more about that one.

I have to gently disagree with the posters who said that the expectations at school are unrealistic. I used to teach preschool for high risk children (kids living in shelters/out of cars, immigrant children who spoke no English, children who had been/were being abused)...definitely a group that you would not expect to have the ability to attend to a task or interact in socially appropriate ways etc. I've also worked in a private school with kids who had every advantage (for the most part.) I'vve seen the full gamut of preschool environments and I have to say that what they are expecting from the children is not unreasonable, (although I'm far from an expert on montessori). Theyu do focus mainly on practical life but the children are still introduced to lessons in each area including the alphabet. But his knowledge of the alphabet is not even my concern here.

[waiting2bemommy]

ok so I'm back to post a couple more things I forgot to mention. I kind of want to have my thoughts in order before we talk to the ped so I'm using you all as a sounding board....

1) ds's bio dad has severe emotional/mental health issues. I'm no expert but if I had to guess I'd say he's got that narcissistic thing going on, is probably quite depressed, and is very, very emotionally stunted/immature. Even people who like him (and there aren't many) deal with him as though they were dealing with someone who was 12 or 13 yrs old. He is very intelligent, has an incredible memory. Gifted even. Very, very manipulative.

This is probably a bit of me projecting these fears onto ds but I see behavior patterns in him that frighten me. The "I want to hurt you" talk. He goes on and on about it. I try to be silly with him because he seems to love it, and so we will say stuff like "throw me in the garbage truck. OK i'm going to throw you in the garbage truck. No, I want you to throw me in the choo choo train." And so on. Very common for us to talk like that. then when he gets mad he will say, "I'm gonna throw my sister in the garbage truck mommy and squish all her insides out. I'm gonna cut off her head. Will that hurt? I want her to hurt. Will she bleed?" the detail and level of understanding is incredible but also very scary because he clearly understands that it is beyond the realm of "silly talk." I could give examples all day but all I can say is that he...."gets" things. He works things out in his head. He is very articulate. prime example he was playing with his dad happily until my mom came in the room. the minute she came in, he started crying. she asked him what happened and he said, "daddy pinched me." Which he did not. I was right there. MY mom looked at where he pointed and said, "well, I don't see anything," and was beginning to back away. He quickly said, "oh no, grandma, it was just a little pinch. You can't see it. But see these scratches? he did those too. He's mean to me." The scratches were days old, but my mom didn't know that, and she beleived him, and told my SO off, and ds rode happily off in her arms to go get a treat.

Ds'bio uncle who is about....12 or 13 now, is so much like ds it is crazy. ds looks like him, talks like him, laughs like him, even finds the same things funny even though they were only around each other for about 6 weeks in ds' whole life. his uncle is a great kid. but it scares me because he has been asked to leave classrooms before, has been in special ed classes mainly for behavior issues, is hyper, cries SUPER easily, like ds, very skinny and can't keepweight on, again just like ds, reacts to food coloring and sugar, like ds, still was wetting the bed nightly when he was 11, don't know if he still does. people like him, but they don't want him in their class, or their boy scout group, or as their kid's friend, because he is just so much work. None of his needs have been addressed and I'm sure that is part of it. Even on meds he is difficult at best. can't focus on anything but the tv, but will hyperfocus on his shows to the point that he cries if you jsut call his name while he's watching tv.

so that is the biological bit that makes me wonder. But I dont' know if a ped would think I was crazy for connecting all these thigns?

The other thing is that we have lived a couple places with very old paint and stuff and I sometimes wonder if ds has lead poisoning. They've never mentioned screeming him before at his well visits although I guess they could ahve done it without telling me.

[Marissamom]

I would be greatly surprised if your mom hasn't been saying stuff to him like "does daddy hurt you? I want you to tell me if daddy hurts you" I doubt he thought that up on his own. 

[waiting2bemommy]

i'm sure she has.She can be pretty toxic. I just was amazed at his ability to very articulately manipulate the situation. Which I guess could be a good trait, just.....not like that.

[pregnant@40]

Another board that discusses violent talk in young kids:

http://parents.berkeley.edu/advice/schoolaged/violent.html

[cjam]

Look up "obstructive sleep apnea" and see if any of the symptoms fit.  Snoring is a big symptom and behaviour and growth issues are the result.

[waiting2bemommy]

Originally Posted by cjam 

Look up "obstructive sleep apnea" and see if any of the symptoms fit.  Snoring is a big symptom and behaviour and growth issues are the result.

 I'm putting the link I found here just in case anyone who reads the thread can use it.

http://www.stanford.edu/~dement/childapnea.html

It saounds a LOT like my ds. thank you so much! I will definitely bring this up wiht his doctor.

[nextcommercial]

I expect those same things in my daycare.  The school doesn't have high expectations.  Especially if the rest of the class is able to do these things without much problem.  My two year olds can set the table AND get the cups, forks and napkins out themselves.  

The snoring sounds like it could cause many problems.  If he's waking frequently through the night, even if only for a moment to catch his breath, he's not getting a good night's sleep.  He can't function properly without sleep.  Snoring is not really natural, especially in children.  Some kids just can't breath properly when they are lying down.   He may need to be seen by an ENT.   This  may be adnoids and tonsils.

If you can get him sleeping right, you might notice a huge improvement in everything he does.