Socialization at school

[kathymuggle]

This is a discussion thread.  I do not need help knowing what to do, I am not up in arms, nothing drastic is going on.  I just like to discuss things.

With that said....DD is in school for the first time in years (since grade 2).  She is in grade 7.

 She has had 8 assemblies, guest speakers, etc that are devoted to social topics.  Here is the run down:

2 sessions on being kind and fair (including a "being fair" essay)

1 session from the police on cyberbullying

1 session from Ontario Students against Impaired Driving, on , you guessed it, impaired driving 

1 session on anti drugs

1 session on anti smoking

1 session (health unit) on why these diseases are bad and why these drugs (vaxes) we intend to inject into your arm are good.  She went to lectures, we declined the vaxes.

1  (the latest)  the health unit sent home a form asking  permission for  kids in grade 7-12 to fill out forms on "at risk behaviour" concerning such things as cutting, smoking, sex, exercise, etc.  Due to concerns with confidentiality, we declined.

They have also discussed bus safety, fire drills, and what to do in a code red emergency (including telling all the kids that if they were out of the room when a code red happened - too bad, the door would be locked and they would be left to deal with the shooter or whatever. Why it may be true, it so so cold and callous.

I am undecided what I think about all of the above.

The pros:  great springboard for conversations at home

                some kids may not have positive messages around this issues, so the school is at least making sure some messages get out

Cons:  I do not agree with how they handle many issues (almost moot because I can discuss things with her at home and give her another POV)

          It takes up so much time!

          Due to the volume of it, it feels a bit like social engineering - let's make sure they all have the same messages on the same issues!  

         Lastly, a lot of it is negative....it seems to be saying teens are oh so prone to making bad choices and need so much guidance.  Individually many of the messages are fine - but 7 or 8 lessons on "do not do this" by November????

Ok.  I got that off my chest.  What do you think?

Edited by kathymuggle - 11/25/10 at 9:21am

[sewchris2642]

It's a knee jerk reaction to events that are out of our control and are reported by the media almost instantaneously as if it was happening in our own back yard/school.  So the parents watch the news about a school shooting and insist that their local school board do something so it doesn't happen at their schools.  Same with drugs, preventable diseases, drunk driving, cyberbullying (very much in the news right now), etc.  Also some of it is directly related to NCLB and other state and national educational mandates and funding.

[Drummer's Wife]

Well, I do think that in 7th grade - so middle school - socialization is more important that academics, for the most part.  I think young teens are learning how to interact with their peers and the world around them, so I would, personally, be okay with that amount of time (8 assemblies) being devoted to social awareness.  A lot of these issues are truly problems for teens and young adults: drugs, violence, cyber bullying, cutting, etc., so talking about them is important.  It's great that your DD has a home and family she feels safe enough to bounce these things off of, but as you acknowledged, many other kids do not.  They may have already experienced these things, or will so in the future, so taking time away from math and history is worth the awareness it will bring to them. 

I think as long as every event is optional - you know, plenty of parents are opposed to DARE, for example - then there's no harm in hosting these topics in a middle school arena.  I would just keep the communication open with my teen so that if she was given wrong information - or taught something that didn't mesh with our family's values, we could discuss it. 

[joensally]

Some of it is to protect against liability - see, we addressed it.

Some of it is to advertise all they're doing to keep kids safe - give the city, parents and staff a sense of comfort that they're addressing stuff.

Some of it is because some kids in that age group are engaged in high risk behaviours and/or are vulnerable.  Some kids will be engaging in high risk behaviours in the next few years, and this is giving them information for the future when faced with these decision points.

It's also low cost - it's cheaper to herd classes of kids into the gym/auditorium and have a speaker present than it is to have sufficient numbers of positive, supportive adults to connect meaningfully with the kids with real risks and vulnerabilities.

[GuildJenn]

Kathy's in my province so we don't have NCLB or DARE. :)

I would actually call it a bit differently...I know when I was working in a school board, every time a child died or was sick or injured because of something, teachers were kind of galvanized to "do something" and that resulted in a lot of similar type activities. I agree that it sounds excessive...but then I think of how I got AIDS education in grade 9 or 10 that no one's parents were giving out (it was still pretty new) and I'm grateful for that.

[MusicianDad]

Having graduated from a public high school in Canada with in the past ten years, I would say the only thing I would have issue with is the anti-drug programmes, some were good, some were very DAREish.

I know you all ready declined the survey, but I took something like that (or very similar) in high school, the kids were all mixed up so there was no way to even tell which class the specific survey came from. It was administered by someone from outside the school who didn't know the kids and they basically just sat at the front of the room and made sure we didn't talk to each other. It was all fill in the bubbles and there were no names. The only alpha-numeric numbers you put in were your age.

As for the code red... If there is a student outside of the classroom when it happens in real life, how is the teacher going to know that that student isn't the one that instigated the code red?  Let someone back into the classroom, it could be an armed student who then has a room full of hostages. That is why they don't let anyone in or out of the rooms during a code red.

Most of it though, is set up to placate the parents. They get all fussy if their kids aren't sat down every few weeks and spoken too about things they think are evil.

And yeah, it tends to be all set up as if teens aren't capable of making the right decision. Because of course, people tend to think teens can't make their own decisions. You see it everywhere, even on MDC, parents who can't seem to comprehend that their teens are more aware of themselves then they are given credit for and who are fully capable of knowing what is best for them.

As for the time... When it comes down to it, it doesn't feel like that much time to the students, but it is still often a nice break from the monotony of classes. Heck in my school. if there was an assembly of any kind, school was over once the assembly was over. 1:30pm at the latest every time.

I don't know a single person who was harmed or brainwashed by any of these assemblies, and quite frankly some of them were pretty fun to sit through. At least there, there is, well I don't want to say valid something like that but not that (I have no idea what word I'm trying to come up with you know "good to have, but still pretty useless in the grand scheme of things" sort of word)...

Anyway, probably better than having to sit through a half-researched assembly on epilepsy (yes, we had an assembly on epilepsy when I was in high school. It was interesting, but as someone who was diagnosed with childhood epilepsy I found it to be liberally peppered with miss information.)

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by GuildJenn 

Kathy's in my province so we don't have NCLB or DARE. :)

I would actually call it a bit differently...I know when I was working in a school board, every time a child died or was sick or injured because of something, teachers were kind of galvanized to "do something" and that resulted in a lot of similar type activities.

     Agreed.  I bet some of these things take on a life of their own - and I know numerous groups have their own agendas, and are anxious to get the word out.  I think in all cases they are well intentionned.
 

Originally Posted by MusicianDad 

I know you all ready declined the survey, but I took something like that (or very similar) in high school, the kids were all mixed up so there was no way to even tell which class the specific survey came from. It was administered by someone from outside the school who didn't know the kids and they basically just sat at the front of the room and made sure we didn't talk to each other. It was all fill in the bubbles and there were no names. The only alpha-numeric numbers you put in were your age.

That is fine.  Hers might have been handled similarly - but the note home did not say if the info was anonymous.  I could have called the health unit for clarification - but did not feel like it.    The burden is on them to tell me if it is anonymous, and they failed to do so.

As for the code red... If there is a student outside of the classroom when it happens in real life, how is the teacher going to know that that student isn't the one that instigated the code red?  Let someone back into the classroom, it could be an armed student who then has a room full of hostages. That is why they don't let anyone in or out of the rooms during a code red.

Oh, I know why code reds are handled the way they are.  I even agree with it-sort of. I have lots of feeling on this subject and they are muddled.  I think the act of telling kids they will be left in the hall or where-ever if a shooter comes is really cold. The statistical liklihood of a code red happenning is so very, very small...I am not sure kids need to know  the cold "you are on you own if there is a shooter in the hall".  OTOH, it is info and people need info to make decisions.  She is in grade 7, not 2, so that is a factor.  I would be downright ticked if someone told my 8 yr old they would not rescue her - a grade 7, though, probably should understand.

I also know I would try hard to rescue a child left out in the hall during a code red.  I think we lose part of our humanity when we ignore those who are in danger.  

I am not a teacher.  I am not sure I could be a teacher if the requirement was I ignore children in the hall during a code red.

As for the time... When it comes down to it, it doesn't feel like that much time to the students, but it is still often a nice break from the monotony of classes. Heck in my school. if there was an assembly of any kind, school was over once the assembly was over. 1:30pm at the latest every time.

Alas, no, it is a rural school.  They call go back to class until the bus comes. Sometimes she enjoys missing the class, sometimes not.  Depends on the class 

Anyway, probably better than having to sit through a half-researched assembly on epilepsy (yes, we had an assembly on epilepsy when I was in high school. It was interesting, but as someone who was diagnosed with childhood epilepsy I found it to be liberally peppered with miss information.)

My DD got to sit through a very mainstream lecture on nutrition in which she knew a fair bit more than the presenters.  Kind of funny, and kind of sad.

Kathy

Edited by kathymuggle - 11/26/10 at 9:30am

[ollyoxenfree]

I know teachers and administrators who would be happy if they didn't have to deal with any of these topics. They would rather teach their subjects and leave the safer sex, drugs, impaired driving, anti-smoking, etc. to parents or some other entity. They integrate these topics into the curriculum for various reasons - most of them because a lot of parents want and expect it. 

I'm torn about it. I think it makes sense to deal with social skills and anti-bullying, since a school is a community and these are important issues in any community. I think other topics like safer sex, drugs, anti-smoking are all part of healthy lifestyles education, and thus aren't out of place in schools that have physical health and education in the curriculum. If you are going to offer phys. ed., then its odd not to include these topics, since they are major culprits for poor health in many. In addition, unfortunately, many children are still getting really lousy information about these issues. Last year, a middle school principal told me that she overheard some girls talking about safer sex. The girls agreed that a Coca Cola douche was an effective birth control and disease prevention method. Clearly, these girls were not getting good advice or information until they received it at school. 

However, I agree that some programs are not well constructed and/or are poorly implemented. In particular, I think addressing any of these topics as a one-off occasion in an assembly is going to be ineffective, especially social skills and anti-bullying.  There needs to be further information-sharing (with accurate content!), exploration of different perspectives and reinforcement in classes and in smaller groups.  

My dc attended a couple of schools that used routinely scheduled assemblies as a way of reinforcing community spirit in the school. There were performances by various classes or student ensembles, updates on school events, and information-sharing. Social issues were part of the agenda, but not the entire focus, and there were other opportunities to address the issues. Occasionally, there would be a special stand-alone assembly - usually if there was a guest speaker invited. I recall one for anti-bullying, and another for Special Olympics. If the school holds routine "community spirit' assemblies like these, rather than one-off topics, then I don't think 8 by November is too frequent or too many. 

Regarding bus safety, fire drills and code red emergencies - I think having instruction in these things is par for the course for any large organization. Emergency procedures are the first things reviewed at the summer camps where my dc attended. I worked in hospitals for many years and there were annual fire drill and emergency evacuation drills. I've worked in skyscrapers in the financial district of a large city and they did the same. Participation was a lot higher after Sept. 11, 2001, btw. I realize many smaller organizations and workplaces don't bother, but they should - and so should every home. 

My dd's school had a code red (or lockdown) emergency when she was in elementary school. It was unpleasant for the children, but honestly, the worst thing was the behaviour of some of the parents. They were outrageous.  Some parents tried to breach the security and get into the building. They endangered themselves and others and needlessly terrified the children who thought those parents were "bad guys".  It makes me seriously wonder about how some people's minds work.  

It does sound harsh to tell a student that if there is a code red they won't be allowed back in class. I would discuss the code red plan with the school and look for some safe options. At the very least, students should know what to do in that situation. I imagine the best thing is to find a safe place to hide. Perhaps one room in each hallway should be designated as a "safe room" if you are stranded away from your class.  The police or emergency consultants to the school board must have some advice for the best procedure for this situation. I have a hard time believing their advice would be leave a child to fend for themselves without any options. 

[One_Girl]

I don't see any problem with schools doing what they can to get the anti-bullying, kindness matters, don't do drugs or smoke messages out there.  I really think they should be doing more than a few assemblies to try to get these messages out there though.  These topics should be covered in depth in health classes starting at a young age, especially ones that include kindness and conflict (something kids have often and handle poorly frequently).  I also see no problem with assemblies meant to teach kids things even if some of it is boring to your individual child.  I am sure there were many kids there who were happy to be out of class and probably some who benefited from it (I benefited from the don't drink/smoke/do drugs ones as well as the safe sex ones), and I don't think it is the job of the school to go plan assemblies based on each child's needs, it is enough that they plan the education in the classroom that way.  After going through the pain of having two loved ones who abused drugs and alcohol, (x-husband who hasn't stopped and brother who has been clean for a year) I really have to say that I can't imagine being against educating children to avoid drug and alcohol abuse.

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by One_Girl 

I also see no problem with assemblies meant to teach kids things even if some of it is boring to your individual child.  I am sure there were many kids there who were happy to be out of class and probably some who benefited from it (I benefited from the don't drink/smoke/do drugs ones as well as the safe sex ones), and I don't think it is the job of the school to go plan assemblies based on each child's needs, it is enough that they plan the education in the classroom that way. 

After going through the pain of having two loved ones who abused drugs and alcohol, (x-husband who hasn't stopped and brother who has been clean for a year) I really have to say that I can't imagine being against educating children to avoid drug and alcohol abuse.

Do you really think assemblies and such make that much of a difference in choices children/youth make ?   I know you said it benefitted you, but I doubt it is the norm that an assembly makes a lasting effect.

My suspicions on why kids do or do not make good choices:

-family of origin and their influence

-personality  

-having something they are engaged in/passionate about so they do not want to smoke, drink, etc

To be honest, I would much prefer that the time spent in the 8 "character/good choices assemblies" she went to was devoted to something else that builds confidence and passion....strong music programs with mentors, Girls on the run, etc.

I do not for one minute think that the fact that assemblies can be boring for my child means they shouldn't do them...I was simply pointing out to a poster that not all kids love getting out of class for assemblies.

[One_Girl]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

Originally Posted by One_Girl 

I also see no problem with assemblies meant to teach kids things even if some of it is boring to your individual child.  I am sure there were many kids there who were happy to be out of class and probably some who benefited from it (I benefited from the don't drink/smoke/do drugs ones as well as the safe sex ones), and I don't think it is the job of the school to go plan assemblies based on each child's needs, it is enough that they plan the education in the classroom that way. 

After going through the pain of having two loved ones who abused drugs and alcohol, (x-husband who hasn't stopped and brother who has been clean for a year) I really have to say that I can't imagine being against educating children to avoid drug and alcohol abuse.

Do you really think assemblies and such make that much of a difference in choices children/youth make ?   I know you said it benefitted you, but I doubt it is the norm that an assembly makes a lasting effect.

My suspicions on why kids do or do not make good choices:

-family of origin and their influence

-personality  

-having something they are engaged in/passionate about so they do not want to smoke, drink, etc

To be honest, I would much prefer that the time spent in the 8 "character/good choices assemblies" she went to was devoted to something else that builds confidence and passion....strong music programs with mentors, Girls on the run, etc.

I do not for one minute think that the fact that assemblies can be boring for my child means they shouldn't do them...I was simply pointing out to a poster that not all kids love getting out of class for assemblies.

I think they do make a difference because kids are hearing for the most part a lot of the same things that parents are telling them in school.  I think they reinforce the good choices and make them a social norm.  There are also some incredibly powerful speakers at some of the assemblies and that has a deep impact on many students.  I think that music programs, mentors, and physical activity should be a part of what schools offer, but that isn't an economic reality.  It is very hard to get volunteers to mentor and music programs cost a lot of money.  Girls on the run sounds nice, but there are also boys in this world and they need a way to be connected too (plus you have to get volunteers who are willing to be a mentor and a coach).  Assemblies are typically free to cheap or sponsored by outside groups in our area and that is a more viable option.  Where I live they offer a wide variety of music and art classes in the public junior highs, they have required PE in most grades until high school, the after school offerings in extra-curricular clubs and activities are wonderful and fit a wide variety of student needs, and they have the musical assemblies as well as the other ones so I don't see it as an either/or situation.  I would be very upset if my child was only getting the serious social talks and not being offered creative social outlets along with them, but I don't think that means that we should trade one for the other.

[One_Girl]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

Originally Posted by One_Girl 

I also see no problem with assemblies meant to teach kids things even if some of it is boring to your individual child.  I am sure there were many kids there who were happy to be out of class and probably some who benefited from it (I benefited from the don't drink/smoke/do drugs ones as well as the safe sex ones), and I don't think it is the job of the school to go plan assemblies based on each child's needs, it is enough that they plan the education in the classroom that way. 

After going through the pain of having two loved ones who abused drugs and alcohol, (x-husband who hasn't stopped and brother who has been clean for a year) I really have to say that I can't imagine being against educating children to avoid drug and alcohol abuse.

Do you really think assemblies and such make that much of a difference in choices children/youth make ?   I know you said it benefitted you, but I doubt it is the norm that an assembly makes a lasting effect.

My suspicions on why kids do or do not make good choices:

-family of origin and their influence

-personality  

-having something they are engaged in/passionate about so they do not want to smoke, drink, etc

To be honest, I would much prefer that the time spent in the 8 "character/good choices assemblies" she went to was devoted to something else that builds confidence and passion....strong music programs with mentors, Girls on the run, etc.

I do not for one minute think that the fact that assemblies can be boring for my child means they shouldn't do them...I was simply pointing out to a poster that not all kids love getting out of class for assemblies.

I think they do make a difference because kids are hearing for the most part a lot of the same things that parents are telling them in school.  I think they reinforce the good choices and make them a social norm.  There are also some incredibly powerful speakers at some of the assemblies and that has a deep impact on many students.  I think that music programs, mentors, and physical activity should be a part of what schools offer, but that isn't an economic reality.  It is very hard to get volunteers to mentor and music programs cost a lot of money.  Girls on the run sounds nice, but there are also boys in this world and they need a way to be connected too (plus you have to get volunteers who are willing to be a mentor and a coach).  Assemblies are typically free to cheap or sponsored by outside groups in our area and that is a more viable option.  Where I live they offer a wide variety of music and art classes in the public junior highs, they have required PE in most grades until high school, the after school offerings in extra-curricular clubs and activities are wonderful and fit a wide variety of student needs, and they have the musical assemblies as well as the other ones so I don't see it as an either/or situation.  I would be very upset if my child was only getting the serious social talks and not being offered creative social outlets along with them, but I don't think that means that we should trade one for the other.

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

          Due to the volume of it, it feels a bit like social engineering - let's make sure they all have the same messages on the same issues!  

Originally Posted by kathymuggle

My suspicions on why kids do or do not make good choices:

-family of origin and their influence

-personality  

-having something they are engaged in/passionate about so they do not want to smoke, drink, etc

To be honest, I would much prefer that the time spent in the 8 "character/good choices assemblies" she went to was devoted to something else that builds confidence and passion....strong music programs with mentors, Girls on the run, etc.

I do not for one minute think that the fact that assemblies can be boring for my child means they shouldn't do them...I was simply pointing out to a poster that not all kids love getting out of class for assemblies.

I tend to agree with you about the overall effectiveness of character assemblies. My view is that assemblies are supposed to be a little like a family meeting - giving a consistent positive message so that everyone understands the standards that apply. I think that's the positive view of your take on the "social engineering" that's happening. The problem is that the "family meeting' doesn't allow for a two-sided (or multiple-sided) conversation about the issues. It's all one-way. When a conversation is one-way, and there is no real discussion, then of course the other side tends to tune out and the message isn't as effective. That's why assemblies shouldn't be the only attempt to deal with these issues. 

[plantnerd]

A lot of children don't get this information at home AT ALL.  You have to remember that schools are teaching to the lowest common denominator.  So yes, it is social engineering, but in a good way.  In your case it is a good conversation starter to discuss these issues with your children...for some it's the only education on why to avoid harmful behaviors they will ever get.

[VisionaryMom]

My son is much younger than your daughter, but I've been appalled at the info he's brought home. For starters, he mixes up the messages. He told me he got a "sticker for free drugs," which was a sticker that said, "I pledge to be drug-free." My child is bright and generally attentive, and that's what HE came away with. I mentioned it to his teacher, and she said oh yeah, those messages get all screwed up. (It's the guidance office who plans the presentations, not the teachers.) She said they've made the guidance folks aware that the kids don't really understand what they're being told, but you know, we've GOTTA teach it. I also have problems with things like the guidance counselor who told my son's class that they should leave the room if there are adults drinking beer or wine. WTF!?! It was only our first week at school, or I would've gone in about that one.

I don't really care for the school to talk to my children about the school administrators feelings on sex, drugs, etc. I can guarantee we just have to undo what they say in many ways. That's annoying to me. At the same time - and this is a major soapbox for me - many parents let the schools practically raise their kids anyway. They eat breakfast, lunch, and after-school snack at school (and that's not healthy food, I can tell you) and then they accept coats, shoes, single-serve food sent home on the weekends (!), medical/psych/therapy provided by the school. It's no wonder the schools really step into social engineering. They are responsible for these kids. Kids like mine, though, get stuck in that trap of being given these one-size-fits-all messages that are intended to help keep everyone safe.

[mattemma04]

I mentioned your schools code red rules to my own kids 2 days ago.The part about kids being out of class get locked out during a code.Led to quite a discussion.Then yesterday I saw the news about the boy in Wisconsin hold his class hostage.That same day the school did a lockdown drill perhaps in response to the recent events.Dd raised her had to ask about being locked out. Kids would be let in,but ofcourse it  is a concern when you don't know if that KID is the one with a gun.

Being a private Montesori I don't think the school covers sex and drug topics.I doubt the kids really even know why a lockdown would occur.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by One_Girl 

After going through the pain of having two loved ones who abused drugs and alcohol, (x-husband who hasn't stopped and brother who has been clean for a year) I really have to say that I can't imagine being against educating children to avoid drug and alcohol abuse.

Educating children about drug and alcohol abuse it fine. However, I've seen little or no evidence that classroom/assembly stuff accomplishes much, if anything. I did drugs in high school (mostly just pot, but not entirely). Our drug "education" caused me to dismiss everything teachers, police officers, etc. said on the subject, because it was riddled with misinformation and propaganda. When you're trying to educate, educate. But, the propaganda I was subjected to was totally counter-productive. I hope things have improved in the last 20+ years, but what I saw of ds1's "planning" homework wasn't very reassuring.

[oaktreemama]

 Our drug "education" caused me to dismiss everything teachers, police officers, etc. said on the subject, because it was riddled with misinformation and propaganda. When you're trying to educate, educate. But, the propaganda I was subjected to was totally counter-productive. I hope things have improved in the last 20+ years, but what I saw of ds1's "planning" homework wasn't very reassuring. 

No worries-it hasn't improved at all.  The propaganda is still present as is the desire to turn children into little tattletales. I find that apect partuclarly dangerous because as a PP said, children mix up the message all the time and families get hurt.

Education is one thing-sadly I don't see a lot of actual education when it comes to drug and alcohol use.