Traditional Food/ Weston Price Wide/Broad Faces?

[Lineymom]

OK, I've been obsessing about this lately.  No, we don't follow a traditional diet.  I've just been really reading about it of late.  I spent this morning reading some old threads on MDC where a lot of people posted photos of their younger kids and discussed their "broad" weston price faces.  Now I am paranoid that my older son has a narrow face. 

Honestly, I can't tell on a baby/toddler.  My understanding was always that the face was chubby then thinned out and elongated as the child aged.  Now I am beginning to think differently about that.  However, all the original Weston Price pics are of older kids/adults, but on the page of their website were people submit pics on their kids, they are all babies/toddlers/pre-adult teeth.  How can they really brag yet?

Basically I am wondering if any of you wanted to post pics of your older kids that follow the diet, or tell me about them compared to you and the other parent.

All of my kids start out asvery big babies/slightly chubby toddlers.  Then they really thin out.  Oldest DS, 8yo is starting to get that "elongated face" I think.  He has adequate space for his adult teeth so far it seems they are straight.

[newcastlemama]

I have a 6yo and almost 3 yo. My 6yo has a narrower face and no space between his teeth and my almost 3yo has very spaced teeth and a wider face and palate. With my 6yo I did the Brewer diet but then only nursed him for 9 weeks due to a medical complication. With my 3yo I did a WAPF diet and worked on my nutrient deficiences with supplements for almost a year before I got pregnant with her and then nursed her frequently for about 2.5 years (until I was pregnant again).

I think the combination of maternal pregnancy diet and extended BFing helps facial structre development. I would not spend too much time worrying about your child having a narrower face--my ds is adorable, healthy, happy and will just need braces for crowded teeth probably.

[spughy]

Yeah, it's really not a good idea to stress about it.  Also, there's a fair bit of genetic diversity to face shape - my DD is inheriting (at least partly) her dad's longer face shape, and although he had to have teeth removed (!!) as a child because they wouldn't fit, I don't think she'll have the same problem, because she was breastfed (weaned at 3) and although her diet is by no means WAPF-approved "traditional", I DO focus a lot on nutrient-dense foods and she eats an awful lot of good stuff regularly.  Her teeth are nicely spaced now and there's plenty of room for adult teeth.  The whole "broad face" thing is really just an external indicator of adequate space for teeth, a broad, shallow dental arch and good space for nasal cavities etc.  It doesn't, IME, necessarily mean a perfect round face.

It is theoretically possible to broaden a child's palate as they grow through adolescence, by encouraging them to eat a lot of nutrient-dense, really chewy foods - like tough meat, jerky, lots of non-tender salad greens, crunchy veg, nuts, etc.  Unfortunately this corresponds with the time in their lives when they just want to hang out with their friends and eat crap, so it may not really be practical.

[tanyalynn]

Originally Posted by Lineymom 

OK, I've been obsessing about this lately.  No, we don't follow a traditional diet.  I've just been really reading about it of late.  I spent this morning reading some old threads on MDC where a lot of people posted photos of their younger kids and discussed their "broad" weston price faces.  Now I am paranoid that my older son has a narrow face. 

Honestly, I can't tell on a baby/toddler.  My understanding was always that the face was chubby then thinned out and elongated as the child aged.  Now I am beginning to think differently about that.  However, all the original Weston Price pics are of older kids/adults, but on the page of their website were people submit pics on their kids, they are all babies/toddlers/pre-adult teeth.  How can they really brag yet?

I can't see it in babies/toddlers, not the faces on the WAPF site, not IRL.  I see issues with my 2 kids, they're 4 and 7 now, but early on?  It was just baby chubby as far as I can see.  I wish Price had taken more baby pics--heck, maybe he didn't because really, it's just not obvious in babies/toddlers. 

I'd agree with the PPs that it's not something to stress about, but I am thinking about dental stuff earlier than I otherwise would. 

Originally Posted by spughy 

Yeah, it's really not a good idea to stress about it.  Also, there's a fair bit of genetic diversity to face shape - my DD is inheriting (at least partly) her dad's longer face shape, and although he had to have teeth removed (!!) as a child because they wouldn't fit, I don't think she'll have the same problem, because she was breastfed (weaned at 3) and although her diet is by no means WAPF-approved "traditional", I DO focus a lot on nutrient-dense foods and she eats an awful lot of good stuff regularly.  Her teeth are nicely spaced now and there's plenty of room for adult teeth.  The whole "broad face" thing is really just an external indicator of adequate space for teeth, a broad, shallow dental arch and good space for nasal cavities etc.  It doesn't, IME, necessarily mean a perfect round face.

It is theoretically possible to broaden a child's palate as they grow through adolescence, by encouraging them to eat a lot of nutrient-dense, really chewy foods - like tough meat, jerky, lots of non-tender salad greens, crunchy veg, nuts, etc.  Unfortunately this corresponds with the time in their lives when they just want to hang out with their friends and eat crap, so it may not really be practical.

Expanding on what spughy said... my kids have very different face shapes, DD takes strongly after DH and DS takes much more after me.  And interestingly (at least to me), the areas of weakness that Price talked about are showing up in different intensities in each of them.  Some of the Caucasian faces that Price had pics of were of a basic face shape that was distinctly rectangular (not round or broad, exactly) but the shape was noticeably different between the two diets--broader noses, stronger, more filled-out jaws. 

That said--to me it looks like nutrition can change face shape even earlier than spughy mentioned.  DD had a crossbite at 3.5yo, the dentist commented on it (I had to look up what it meant, a crossbite is when the top teeth don't all overlap the bottom ones--either they close on top of them or possibly behind), and it was 3 years til we went back to a new dentist--new city, a couple moves--and no more crossbite.  Looking at old pics, I think roughly around her top canines that were probably hitting the teeth under them rather than being on the outside, and now her top teeth clearly come down over the bottom in what looks like an appropriate manner.  It's subtle, but I think I see the change happening.

DS--he's 4.5yo and also has a crossbite (plus a very small lower jaw, lots of crowding), and I'm hoping a combo of diet (including supps, but we've got some overarching health stuff going on) and visits to our DO who does cranial-sacral will help his dental growth and alignment--his lower jaw really is quite small and I foresee serious crowding of his adult teeth if I can't figure out how to get some catch-up growth done.  My fingers are crossed that by putting in the time and money and effort now, we can avoid having to consider orthodontic work at a later date.  Since they're just 4 and 7 now, though, I can't say how it will work out.

I don't think it's worth stressing over, but I'm putting some amount of thought into it since I think both my kids would have orthodontic discussions in their future--no guarantees we won't yet, but I'm doing what I can.

[Smokering]

We don't do hardcore TF, but we're pretty whole-foodsy, pro-good-fats and try to eat nutrient-dense stuff. Honestly, DD does have a broad face and nicely-spaced teeth, but she also looks exactly like I did at her age - and I was the third of three very closely-spaced pregnancies without great nutrition (though I did BF for 2 years). I think my family just has broad faces! My teeth did get a bit more crowded growing up though - I'm hoping DD's won't, and the nutritional differences will begin to show up.

Although, honestly, I have a bit of difficulty seeing the "degeneration" WAPF mentions in some of the photos. Obviously I can tell when there are crowded teeth or obviously narrowed faces, but in some of his photos he was talking about underdevelopment of the lower or middle thirds of the face, and I was thinking "Huh? They look perfectly normal to me". Which could indicate I'm just used to seeing people with underdeveloped faces, or that I'm unobservant, or... I dunno. :p

[naupakamama]

I can actually see this difference really clearly and it was an explanation from WPF that made me have an aha moment.  It is not that the babies/toddlers faces are chubbier or the cheeks are chubbier.  What it is specifically is that the central column of the face (from hair line, between eyes, either side of nose, to chin - so the middle third of the face) is too narrow.  I see it in noticing the placement of eyes.  I have seen so many babies recently who's eyes just look too close together.  I have never seen it on an babies on Mothering's covers though :)  It also means the the sinuses are wide enough so they get clogged easily.  My husband (who was formula fed and had very little nourishing food growing up) has constant breathing problems.  He even needed nasal surgery for it as an adult.

I hope that helps explain it.

[velcromom]

I usually have a hard time seeing it in babies and toddlers but in older kids and adults, I see it frequently. I also observe the effect Price describes of the youngest child having the worst problem with it, due to maternal depletion and too short a space between babies. There was a family I noticed today with three teens, and the youngest sure enough had the narrowest facial structure especially in the lower half.  I've noticed that often the narrow crooked teeth come with a receded chin and underdeveloped jaw so that there's a straight line from the earlobe to the chin. It's almost like there is some of the jaw/chin missing, once you notice.

I never really noticed before I read Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, I do think as a pp said, so many people have this structure that it seems normal to the average person. I'm sure it has been common enough through most of the past, that many people grow up seeing it and not thinking anything of it, and with so many generations being affected and passing on the deficiencies, it makes sense that people would just think it was genetic in origin.

My third child is actually the one with the best facial structure and good dental arch. Time will tell how that plays out, but in my own 3 kids I can see how my diet went from SAD (child one, narrow face, moderately crooked teeth at age 19) to mostly whole foods (child two, fairly wide face, very slightly crooked teeth) to mostly TF (third child, fairly wide face, quite straight teeth). The last two are still very young (3 and 7) so it will be some time til I can see the final results!

[Smokering]

What it is specifically is that the central column of the face (from hair line, between eyes, either side of nose, to chin - so the middle third of the face) is too narrow.  I see it in noticing the placement of eyes.  I have seen so many babies recently who's eyes just look too close together.

Ahhhh, right! I misunderstood the "middle third" terminology - I was looking at the middle third of the faces from top to bottom, not side-to-side. I was wondering if I should be seeing sunken noses and malformed ears, and couldn't spot it. Heh. Now I'll have to go look them all up again!

[tanyalynn]

Originally Posted by Smokering 

What it is specifically is that the central column of the face (from hair line, between eyes, either side of nose, to chin - so the middle third of the face) is too narrow.  I see it in noticing the placement of eyes.  I have seen so many babies recently who's eyes just look too close together.

Ahhhh, right! I misunderstood the "middle third" terminology - I was looking at the middle third of the faces from top to bottom, not side-to-side. I was wondering if I should be seeing sunken noses and malformed ears, and couldn't spot it. Heh. Now I'll have to go look them all up again!

I think what Price was referring to _was_ the middle third in the horizontal direction.  Not doubting what the PP described, I'm going to look for it and see if I can see it myself--but I think Price's middle third would affect stuff like narrow noses, high arched palates, sinus congestion (snoring/breathing difficulties, mouth breathing), cross bites in the teeth, like that--basically stuff that would be lessened if the horizontal middle band of the face were a bit farther out and a bit wider. 

[deditus]

I agree with Tanya. I think it refers to the horizontal middle. It took me a long time to see it, but I can now. The best way I have of explaining it would be to say make a nice head out of playdough. Hold it with the thumb under the chin and pointer on top of the head. Now squeeze these points together slightly and you can see how it affects the middle of the face, pinching it.
 

Originally Posted by tanyalynn 

Originally Posted by Smokering 

What it is specifically is that the central column of the face (from hair line, between eyes, either side of nose, to chin - so the middle third of the face) is too narrow.  I see it in noticing the placement of eyes.  I have seen so many babies recently who's eyes just look too close together.

Ahhhh, right! I misunderstood the "middle third" terminology - I was looking at the middle third of the faces from top to bottom, not side-to-side. I was wondering if I should be seeing sunken noses and malformed ears, and couldn't spot it. Heh. Now I'll have to go look them all up again!

I think what Price was referring to _was_ the middle third in the horizontal direction.  Not doubting what the PP described, I'm going to look for it and see if I can see it myself--but I think Price's middle third would affect stuff like narrow noses, high arched palates, sinus congestion (snoring/breathing difficulties, mouth breathing), cross bites in the teeth, like that--basically stuff that would be lessened if the horizontal middle band of the face were a bit farther out and a bit wider. 

[velcromom]

Yes, it is the middle third on the horizontal plane. In some cases when referring to two different "thirds" Price will call them "middle" and "lower". If it were the vertical middle third, he would be saying "right" or "left".

In the faces he says show good nutrition, the cheekbones are wider than the jaw, and the jaw is square, the chin prominent with the teeth meeting well. He talks a lot about underdevelopment of the lower third of the face (receded chins with overbite, underdeveloped jaw) as well so I am sure it's good to keep in mind that nourishing foods affect the face/dentition as a whole.

I have no doubt that the close-set eyes a pp mentioned are part of the picture; there are a set of "irregularities" that are referred to as "midline defects" - one of the most common is tongue-tie and the accompanying effect on the teeth. They don't seem to be of any concern to MDs, who seem to simply accept them as "something that frequently happens".

But like all things TF, it's possible to get too caught up  in the details - I really think once we've learned the information we need to just do the best we can and not expect perfection from ourselves (which I know is tough to do when it comes to our kids, isn't it!).

[naupakamama]

My mom said that she always thought it was the horizontal third until she got back from the recent weston price conference.  She said that she learned there that it was the vertical middle third.  Check out the weston price logo and short explanation (under the logo) on wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weston_A._Price_Foundation

I will get more information from her from the conference and let you know.

Interesting conversation no matter what is "correct"!

[Smokering]

I have no doubt that the close-set eyes a pp mentioned are part of the picture; there are a set of "irregularities" that are referred to as "midline defects" - one of the most common is tongue-tie and the accompanying effect on the teeth. They don't seem to be of any concern to MDs, who seem to simply accept them as "something that frequently happens".

But aren't midline defects anomalies along the vertical middle of the body? I thought they could include heart issues and so on.

Naupakamama: Fascinating! I've gotta say, the vertical middle makes more sense to me, given the deformities he described - sinuses, palate etc; and the narrow eyes a PP mentioned. To cover all those things, the horizontal "middle third" would have to be significantly more than 1/3 of the face, surely?

I do recall WAP writing about the "lower third" of the face, but he wasn't necessarily contrasting it to the "middle third". I mean, whichever he meant by "middle third", the only way you can describe the lower third is "lower third" - you know?

Edited by Smokering - 12/21/10 at 11:23pm

[velcromom]

Originally Posted by Smokering 

 

But aren't midline defects anomalies along the vertical middle of the body? I thought they could include heart issues and so on.

Yes, that's correct, I was just throwing in that they seem to come along with the whole scenario. I should have been clearer - I believe you are right about the heart issues - I meant to refer to the less serious effects by using the word irregularities, sorry I wasn't clear enough! :)

Ok, if it is the vertical middle third, then - it is a bit confusing with all the terms - however, that goes along with what Price says about the narrowing of the pelvis and narrowing & deepening of the chest  - the entire body is affected in a narrowing, lengthening way. That does seem more congruous, that the face would be affected in the vertical plane same as the body.

Whew, glad we got that one hammered out!

[Smokering]

Yeah, that's what I wondered - if midline defects might just be another symptom of the narrowed vertical third thing. I do vaguely remember reading somewhere that midline defects might be a lot more common than we know - as in, they're not usually diagnosed unless they're fairly significant, but lots of people have them. If so, well, that's... interesting. (Heh. I'm not scientific enough to dare say anything more definite than that!)