Is this where GD and AP have gotten us? - Page 2

[mom2happy]

LynnS6,

I totally agree with all of your tactics and ideas on how this could have been more peaceful. This is exactly how everything would have gone if I wasnt busy nursing, diapering, and holding a 7 month old who was scared of a giant black lab the whole time.

Out of all of this, the things I am most upset with are; DD saying she hates her brother in front of everyone. This has been going on for about a year at home. She knows it's not ok and we have discussed this day in and day out. She has no self control for keeping terrible phrases to herself when she is angry. That is what I mean for "expressing anger in inappopriate ways".

The other and more important issue is that I have been working so HARD for 7 years to raise my children gently and with words. It requires SO much work and energy.

For DH to get so angry about a situation like this makes me very upset.

I did a lot of thinking this weekend and there is some work to be done.

He needs to figure out a way of communicating with the kids that he is serious. He doesnt know how to be firm and gentle. He goes from Ok guys, go to bed in a non serious tone to a whine and after about 5 times a yell.

Silly part is..... that he can think that's my fault!

He needs to come up with a better way of handling HIS children himself and cant rely on me to do everything.

He thinks they should just simply listen. What kids or even adults just quickly simply comply with every order given?

I can get them to go to bed every night by myself and with a baby.(DH works during the week till 9 pm)

I dont need to yell (well, sometimes make a really angry face and say I feel like Im going to yell on really hard nights)

We do a nice bedtime routine, I allow for a few extra kisses/ blanket tuckings and then say one last and serious time that I dont expect anyone to get out of bed unless they are sick or have to use the bathroom. Then I do into my room or back into the kitchen and Im done.

So maybe it's HIS lack of proper discipline that is the problem. He doesnt want to be the bad guy, so just blames everything on me.

Guildjenn,

I also thing stating the expectations would have helped a lot with this day.

The secret signal thing is an awsome idea.

It doesnt work for DD and her temper, but DS is a lot easier when it comes to this stuff.

He just gets obnoxiously silly. We came up with a great code word for when we are out and he is doing that. He loves it.

I actually think it might work!

[NellieKatz]

Originally Posted by PreggieUBA2C 

The following is exaggerated to make my points clear, but not intended to imply anything about you, op, or your family. I've written principally, but used your info as data for the arguments I'm making. I also understand that you are struggling and you and your dp are not at this point very clear about how you want to communicate as a family about conflicts that arise between your members, so this is not meant to indict you at all; it's just the most accurate way I could think of at the moment to express it.

What I don't understand is the unnamed alternative when gentle discipline isn't "working." What are you going to do? Anything you choose to do to or with your children is going to require at least as much consideration, analysis and understanding from your children in order to "work", but the less opportunity you afford your children to work through your life together, gently, the longer you will have the same issues. So, for example, you could punish your child instead of explaining why it's not okay to act obnoxiously in company, but this still requires that the child recognise specifically the behaviour that you deem obnoxious (by what means? Are you really not going to explain it to him?), then reason that if he does it, you will hit him/put him in his room/take away things he values/etc....

You are no further ahead by not engaging your children: the same processes and mechanisms are required for them to determine whether or not they are behaving in a beneficial way, what you approve, and what the consequences are. Without gd, though, you just make their options and, consequently, their world, a little or a lot smaller.

My favourite question to people who punish is: "Does it work?" Inevitably, they say, "Yes, of course." My reply: "So you only had to do it the once, then."

The point is that punishment is a false economy (except in specific circumstances and only pertaining to adults, not children). What you punish, you have neglected to adequately or clearly identify as a problem and then to add insult to injury, you also neglect to solve the problem. So the children behaved in a way you didn't enjoy. Then they are forced to stay in their room all day, apart from you, feeling rotten and unloved. Problem solved? Hardly. You could do this until they're grown, but it still wouldn't ever become the solution to a problem. But the worst part of this is that no problem has been clearly, rationally defined. "I don't like how you behaved today" is not even close to adequate for the conclusion of a discussion, let alone instruction in what to do and not to do, which doesn't even address the underlying issues related to reasonable expectations according to realistic standards for either the children, or you and your dp.

You are no further ahead by quitting gentle discipline, which just means a willingness to act compassionately while guiding one's children to adulthood. I cannot see how that wouldn't "work", unless there is a faulty underlying premise such as defining "work" as that which gives me veto power and fear-evoked appearance of respect. I am assuming you would prefer the former, which is why you have been gently disciplining to begin with.

Wow! You said this so amazingly well that I am going to print it and keep it and refer to it. Awesome answer! Thanks for that.
 

[mom2happy]

Originally Posted by PreggieUBA2C 

The following is exaggerated to make my points clear, but not intended to imply anything about you, op, or your family. I've written principally, but used your info as data for the arguments I'm making. I also understand that you are struggling and you and your dp are not at this point very clear about how you want to communicate as a family about conflicts that arise between your members, so this is not meant to indict you at all; it's just the most accurate way I could think of at the moment to express it.

What I don't understand is the unnamed alternative when gentle discipline isn't "working." What are you going to do? Anything you choose to do to or with your children is going to require at least as much consideration, analysis and understanding from your children in order to "work", but the less opportunity you afford your children to work through your life together, gently, the longer you will have the same issues. So, for example, you could punish your child instead of explaining why it's not okay to act obnoxiously in company, but this still requires that the child recognise specifically the behaviour that you deem obnoxious (by what means? Are you really not going to explain it to him?), then reason that if he does it, you will hit him/put him in his room/take away things he values/etc....

You are no further ahead by not engaging your children: the same processes and mechanisms are required for them to determine whether or not they are behaving in a beneficial way, what you approve, and what the consequences are. Without gd, though, you just make their options and, consequently, their world, a little or a lot smaller.

My favourite question to people who punish is: "Does it work?" Inevitably, they say, "Yes, of course." My reply: "So you only had to do it the once, then."

The point is that punishment is a false economy (except in specific circumstances and only pertaining to adults, not children). What you punish, you have neglected to adequately or clearly identify as a problem and then to add insult to injury, you also neglect to solve the problem. So the children behaved in a way you didn't enjoy. Then they are forced to stay in their room all day, apart from you, feeling rotten and unloved. Problem solved? Hardly. You could do this until they're grown, but it still wouldn't ever become the solution to a problem. But the worst part of this is that no problem has been clearly, rationally defined. "I don't like how you behaved today" is not even close to adequate for the conclusion of a discussion, let alone instruction in what to do and not to do, which doesn't even address the underlying issues related to reasonable expectations according to realistic standards for either the children, or you and your dp.

You are no further ahead by quitting gentle discipline, which just means a willingness to act compassionately while guiding one's children to adulthood. I cannot see how that wouldn't "work", unless there is a faulty underlying premise such as defining "work" as that which gives me veto power and fear-evoked appearance of respect. I am assuming you would prefer the former, which is why you have been gently disciplining to begin with.

Right, right, and right again. Everything you have here is why I have been doing this from the beginning. It's what I believe and the only way I will be ever be able to deal with my children.

I guess my post should have been, "Is this what happens when you raise your kids GD and your partner doesnt understand it"?

I will never quit the parenting style that comes naturally to me. I feel my kids deserve explanations for everything and I empathize with their feelings always. To change my ways would be to change who I am and that cant happen anyway.

I dont know how a middle ground could be reached. DH would NEVER want to physically punish them (he knows how that feels), but he is big on thinking they should spend more than 10 minutes in their rooms. He is kind of uncreative when it comes to keeping them in line and automatically resorts to ...go to your room. Then they yell back at him and go play with toys or read. That's my fault?

[D_McG]

Originally Posted by mom2happy 

Right, right, and right again. Everything you have here is why I have been doing this from the beginning. It's what I believe and the only way I will be ever be able to deal with my children.

I guess my post should have been, "Is this what happens when you raise your kids GD and your partner doesnt understand it"?

I will never quit the parenting style that comes naturally to me. I feel my kids deserve explanations for everything and I empathize with their feelings always. To change my ways would be to change who I am and that cant happen anyway.

I dont know how a middle ground could be reached. DH would NEVER want to physically punish them (he knows how that feels), but he is big on thinking they should spend more than 10 minutes in their rooms. He is kind of uncreative when it comes to keeping them in line and automatically resorts to ...go to your room. Then they yell back at him and go play with toys or read. That's my fault?

I think you  need to talk to your DH and figure out exactly what his issues are.  My husband has one more than one occasion told me I was not strict enough with our kids *and he was right*.  Once I listened and agreed to a higher set of standards, more consistent and immediate consequences...we were all happier in the longer term.  Are you sure it's not something like that?

You say 'they yell back at him and go play with toys'.  Well ok - I hope you are stepping in there and letting them know that that is absolutely unacceptable behavior?    I don't know. It 'feels' like (and I could be wrong!) that maybe you are not being strict enough and your DH is frustrated.  But maybe I'm just projecting from my own house :)  Some earlier posters gave good examples of appropriate consequences for the dinner examples in your OP.  What did you think of those?

 

[madskye]

Reading your posts, it seems to me that the problem isn't particularly what they did, but that they're not listening in general and your DH is not feeling respected.  And that was particularly embarassing in front of his relatives.  I don't think it's unreasonable for your DH to go from mellow to losing his temper if he has to ask the kids something five times and it's still not happening.

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

He goes from Ok guys, go to bed in a non serious tone to a whine and after about 5 times a yell.

Maybe not listening/being respectful is the root of the problem here and you could all work on that together?  I have pointed out to my DD, 5, that she feels pretty bad if she asks me to do something and I just don't listen to her.  And that I very seldom just don't do what she asks me to do--and when I don't, I have the courtesy to discuss it with her.  We talk a lot about how cooperation makes our house work.  And sometimes I point out to her when I'm doing something for her dad, because he asked me to!

Their behavior doesn't sound so bad-but maybe your DH was a little triggered because he knew there was no way he could get them settle down if they crossed the line?

Holidays really bring out the best in all of us, don't they?  I had a good Thanksgiving, but am dreading Christmas with the other side of the family.

[mom2happy]

Originally Posted by D_McG 

Originally Posted by mom2happy 

Right, right, and right again. Everything you have here is why I have been doing this from the beginning. It's what I believe and the only way I will be ever be able to deal with my children.

I guess my post should have been, "Is this what happens when you raise your kids GD and your partner doesnt understand it"?

I will never quit the parenting style that comes naturally to me. I feel my kids deserve explanations for everything and I empathize with their feelings always. To change my ways would be to change who I am and that cant happen anyway.

I dont know how a middle ground could be reached. DH would NEVER want to physically punish them (he knows how that feels), but he is big on thinking they should spend more than 10 minutes in their rooms. He is kind of uncreative when it comes to keeping them in line and automatically resorts to ...go to your room. Then they yell back at him and go play with toys or read. That's my fault?

I think you  need to talk to your DH and figure out exactly what his issues are.  My husband has one more than one occasion told me I was not strict enough with our kids *and he was right*.  Once I listened and agreed to a higher set of standards, more consistent and immediate consequences...we were all happier in the longer term.  Are you sure it's not something like that?

You say 'they yell back at him and go play with toys'.  Well ok - I hope you are stepping in there and letting them know that that is absolutely unacceptable behavior?    I don't know. It 'feels' like (and I could be wrong!) that maybe you are not being strict enough and your DH is frustrated.  But maybe I'm just projecting from my own house :)  Some earlier posters gave good examples of appropriate consequences for the dinner examples in your OP.  What did you think of those?

 

Yes we do need to talk. I know what his issues are though. He thinks kids are small adults that are supposed to just listen. He remembers asking no questions when his father told him what to do.

Well, that's because he was afraid he would be hit, not because he was such a perfect being.

This is the thing, I cant always step in. Even though I do everything in this house and with the kids 24/7 from Mon- Fri, I still feel that a hot shower on Saturday evening is something I deserve. He needs to figure out how to handle them. They are his kids too. Why should I have to step in every second and not even go to the bathroom?

He feels like he doesnt want to be the "bad guy". Heck, Im the bad guy all the time. I have to say no to candy sometimes, icecream, tv shows........... thats life. Im not trying to be bff's with my kids. Im trying to guide them, and unfortunaltely that means being in charge.

We definitely need to figure this out.

I think I'm strict enough- he doesnt, but he doesnt have any good ideas besides blaming me or to yell.

What immediate and consistent consequence would you have for a child saying something terrible in front of people she barely knows?

I took her into a spare bedroom and told her when she was ready to act properly to come back out.

She came back out and didnt do that same thing again, but was still rather yucky.

[mom2happy]

Originally Posted by madskye 

Reading your posts, it seems to me that the problem isn't particularly what they did, but that they're not listening in general and your DH is not feeling respected.  And that was particularly embarassing in front of his relatives.  I don't think it's unreasonable for your DH to go from mellow to losing his temper if he has to ask the kids something five times and it's still not happening.

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

He goes from Ok guys, go to bed in a non serious tone to a whine and after about 5 times a yell.

Maybe not listening/being respectful is the root of the problem here and you could all work on that together?  I have pointed out to my DD, 5, that she feels pretty bad if she asks me to do something and I just don't listen to her.  And that I very seldom just don't do what she asks me to do--and when I don't, I have the courtesy to discuss it with her.  We talk a lot about how cooperation makes our house work.  And sometimes I point out to her when I'm doing something for her dad, because he asked me to!

Their behavior doesn't sound so bad-but maybe your DH was a little triggered because he knew there was no way he could get them settle down if they crossed the line?

Holidays really bring out the best in all of us, don't they?  I had a good Thanksgiving, but am dreading Christmas with the other side of the family.

Yes, this is the root of the problem. With our family meeting we are going to take this whole problem and all work on it.

There are a lot of reasons he was triggered that day. He just wanted to eat and relax and the kids were wild. That really ticked him off too.

He wants instant compliance.

NOT gunna happen. They are not robots.

Fortunately the rest of our holiday season is spent with the non stressful family

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by mom2happy 

LynnS6,

I totally agree with all of your tactics and ideas on how this could have been more peaceful. This is exactly how everything would have gone if I wasnt busy nursing, diapering, and holding a 7 month old who was scared of a giant black lab the whole time.

Ah... that explains a lot. So, he expected to be able to go to a family dinner, have his kids sit quietly until spoken to, hang out with the adults and not pay any attention to the kids unless he wanted to? You're right, ain't gonna happen. If you've got 3 kids, he's got to be more proactive. They now outnumber you, and they outnumber the hands of any one parent. (Any chance that the baby is some of the cause of the stress among the older kids?)

Since he clearly works very long hours, it sounds to me like he doesn't have a realistic sense of what to expect from children. I would actually recommend 2 things: Joint parenting classes (if nothing else so you can talk about these issues on a neutral turf) and leaving him alone with the kids more often. You can't get better at something you never practice.

Originally Posted by mom2happy 

I dont know how a middle ground could be reached. DH would NEVER want to physically punish them (he knows how that feels), but he is big on thinking they should spend more than 10 minutes in their rooms. He is kind of uncreative when it comes to keeping them in line and automatically resorts to ...go to your room. Then they yell back at him and go play with toys or read. That's my fault?

Can you help him reframe this? Ask him what specific thing he wants them to learn. Then follow up with "How is spending 3 hours in their bedroom going to help them learn that? What would you do if you were sent to your bedroom for a long period of time?" Personally, I'd be steaming about the great injustice of it all, not learning a thing.

Originally Posted by mom2happy 

I took her into a spare bedroom and told her when she was ready to act properly to come back out.

She came back out and didnt do that same thing again, but was still rather yucky.

Let's view the glass as half full -- she didn't do that again. It is working. The next step then is to see what makes sense to add to your repretoire to curb this behavior at home. I haven't got any really good ideas, since my kids just don't say this (don't worry, they're not perfect, but this isn't one of their vices!).

[Viola]

Originally Posted by mom2happy 

DH kept saying he is so disgusted, I treat them like babies, they have no real consequences........ what I am doing is clearly NOT working. He said they need to think twice about what they say and do and the only way to ensure they do that is to come up with real consequences.

My husband says this all the time, and it's really frustrating when you feel like you have spent a long time talking with them and working with them, and it's the same old thing sometimes.  I figure we're working on the long haul, but my husband would probably spank a lot more if I weren't around. It just feels like such a defeatist thing when he goes on this rant, however, especially since sometimes I really feel like I could put up with their screaming and silliness way more easily than I can put up with his being mad about it.  I want to send him to his room--he'd probably go. :)