At the end of our rope with DD (2.75) screaming for HOURS during the night

[Smokering]

ARRGH! I'm writing this in a first-trimester, sleep-deprived-at-the-best-of-times haze PLUS having been awake for two hours last night dealing with DD. So do forgive me if I split any infinitives. :p

OK, in case any of this background is helpful: DD is two years and nine months. We cosleep, have since birth, it's usually worked out OK. I'm 12 weeks pregnant; DD knows and is happy about it. She may be going through a growth spurt right now - we've noticed her eating more. She's generally a pleasant child, although she's been a bit naughtier than usual recently - nothing out of the ordinary for a two-year-old, but whining and throwing the odd tantrum when she doesn't get her way.

We don't know of any allergies she has, but she has been chronically constipated for several months now - we give her prune juice and Lactulose to counteract it. I took her to the doctor ages ago and she didn't seem concerned, but I may take her back at some stage.

We do keep odd hours. We usually eat late, 8 or 9PM, and watch a movie or TV show after that - DD will eat with us and usually fall asleep while we watch. Then we wake her up to do her teeth when we go to bed (often 11:30ish), and she falls right back to sleep. We get up late (DH works from home, so we can indulge in funny hours) - 9 or 9:30 is common. She usually wakes up a little bit before us.

She still naps during the day, but not consistently. I've been spending a lot of time in bed due to first-trimester fatigue (and how!), and she'll often slip into bed beside me and nap for an hour or so. She usually wakes up if I get up, or shortly afterwards.

I've been cutting down on BFing because it hurts due to pregnancy. She's allowed the milks when she goes to sleep at night, and in the morning - at a reasonable hour, not 3AM! Often of late, DH puts her down after doing her teeth and she's asleep by the time I get back from doing mine, so she skips the evening feed.

So, that's the situation - I can't think of anything else that might be relevant.

Right.

So, over the last few weeks, she's started FREAKING out when she wakes up, if she's not completely rested. So after a shortish daytime nap, she'll wake up screaming and run around the house looking vague and inconsolable for some time. If she has a really long nap (which usually requires a few top-ups of the milks) she'll wake up beaming and smug and cute. :p

It's a pain during the day, but at night it's far far worse. She's started doing it most nights (many? Feels like most!)... waking up at 1AM or 3 or 5 or any random time with a whimper which quickly escalates into a screaming fit. It goes on, literally, for HOURS. I've looked up night terrors and it doesn't seem to quite fit, except for one night, but that night had a different "vibe". She's hysterical and kicks her legs against each other - she scratches her calves all to blazes with her toenails - but she can respond to things, usually by shouting "No!"... Sometimes she'll try to "change the subject" by shouting "I want an eggy!" or "I want to poop on the potty!" or "I want some water!" or whatever... but if we give her what she asks for she doesn't want it, and screams just as loudly. Sometimes she'll run around the bedroom, or just lie on the bed kicking at her own legs and writhing and screaming. And there is NO snapping her out of it. Cold water on the face, holding her legs tightly so she can't kick, offering her milks, giving her hugs, threats, bribes, reasoning with her, even locking her in the bathroom with the light off in an effort to shock her into silence (we were desperate) had absolutely no effect.

When she eventually calms down, we can't figure out what triggers that - probably just exhaustion. She'll sort of "break" and when I offer her hugs she'll snuggle up to me, make a weak plea for the milks (which she doesn't get, because we have a "no milks when you've been naughty" rule as well as a "no milks in the middle of the night" rule), accepts my "no" quite happily, and falls asleep within a few minutes. Talking softly and monotonously helps at that point, but not before.

Seriously, we are at the end of our rope. We have a flatmate, who had to come home from work today because he was so tired from her keeping him up last night. I'm afraid our neighbors are going to call the police or something, because it sounds like she's being murdered - and trust me, we've been tempted!! In the morning she wakes up cheerful and seems to remember screaming, and will happily tell you "I mus' be good, not scream at night", but she can't explain why she was sad, and it doesn't stop her from doing it again (although she'll be proud in the morning and say "I was good last night, slept ALLLL night!" if she didn't scream).

HELP! This can NOT go on much longer, and I dread the thought that she'll still be doing it when the new baby's born (we'll probably all be sharing a bedroom, though we hope to transition her to a toddler bed as soon as we can find one).

[rabbitmum]

I think it sounds like night terror. Why don't you think it fits? My youngest DS had a short period with this kind of screaming around that age. We didn't find any solution other than trying to comfort him.

[Smokering]

Well, I didn't think it was because she didn't seem scared, just full of blinding out-of-control rage; and there was one night where she did seem really scared and not properly conscious, so I assumed that's what a night terror looked like. But I just read a few threads about night terrors via Google, and it sounds like you're right. (Why do they call them terrors when anger, not fear, seems to be the predominant symptom?) Unfortunately, I read a whole bunch of posts saying "My child did this nightly from the ages of three to five" - um, yeah, super. We CANNOT function like this as a household.

I did glean one piece of advice, to get her to sleep more (apparently overtiredness can cause it). So we'll try that. But if it doesn't work, well... I dunno. Is it unethical to shut one's child up in a padded soundproof box? I mean, she's screaming anyway.... (she asks, not entirely joking). Our house is very un-soundproof.

[TulsiLeaf]

Have you thought about maybe switching her schedule?

I'm just offering this up, so take it as you will.

TV before going to bed is sometimes to much for me (when we had it).  I always find that falling asleep while TV being on gives me strange dreams, dreams that I have trouble coming out of and sleep paralysis.  I don't get restful sleep because there isn't enough peace and quiet around me.  So I would imagine your daughter falling asleep to the TV having some of the same problem.  Honestly, it's not healthy to let them do that.  Their minds need quiet and relaxation so that they can properly fall asleep and gain the benefits of sleep!  Also, maybe try moving her bedtime back a few hours, gradually.  I know that for some families it works out better, but I can't really understand why keeping children up later in the evening and allowing them to sleep in later is ok.  Maybe it's because I was brought up with an early bed time and I do that with my daughter.  Hmmm. 

But I would try more rest, a quieter and less distracted transition into sleeping (maybe snuggling with her in your bed) and earlier bedtime.  Good luck.

Ohh and with the night terrors.  Generally trying to wake them up or fix them does nothing.  They don't remember it, it's something they can't control and it just happens.  It's a phase and it does end, but there really isn't a cure for them.  When my daughter would get them I would just put her back to bed and not try to talk to her, reason with her, wake her up or anything.  I would seriously let her get on with them.  She's not awake and won't be traumatized by them.  The less noise I made about them during the easier it was for her to go back to sleep.

[*MamaJen*]

Ugh, that sounds awful, and it definitely sounds like it could be night terrors. DS had a couple of night terrors that went something like that. Both times, they happened on nights when he had stayed up exceptionally late, so being overtired is definitely a trigger.

I would honestly recommend trying to put her down at an earlier time, like 8:30 or 9, and seeing if that does it. If she's going to bed at 10 and waking up at 9, that should be enough sleep, but maybe missing naps is pushing her into over-tired territory.

Also, I agree that not falling asleep in front of the TV could help.

Try a super relaxing early bedtime routine tomorrow...no TV, long hot bath, read a couple bedtime stories, nurse, and head on the pillow by 8:30. It might do the trick.

[Smokering]

Well, we just had a three-hour nap, from 3 to 6PM. (At least, part of my nap was reading Terry Pratchett, but hers was all sleep!) She woke up about an hour in and strted to scream, but I gave her the other side and she went back to sleep. When she finally woke up she was beaming and perfectly happy - like I said, if she wakes up refreshed she's fine. Obviously I can't do the three-hour nap thing every day, or always be on hand to prevent any early waking with the milks, but for now I'm pregnant and exhausted so it actually works quite well. :p

I can't really do an early bedtime tonight - we have choir practice and then a late dinner with a friend over while we watch Mad Men, and she won't be willing to miss it (or able, really - our flatmate cooks dinner while we do choir, and it isn't even in existence until about 10PM). I guess on other nights we could try an earlier bedtime, though. I sort of hate the idea, because we are NOT morning people and I'm afraid if she goes to bed at 8 like a normal kid, she'll wake up at 7 like a normal kid and demand to be parented. :p So I'd rather supplement her sleep with naps. But if it must be done, it must... I guess we could eat at the table like civilised people, try to eat earlier, and then put her down before watching our show. DH likes to watch something to unwind at the end of the day, but I've never been crazy about her watching TV anyway, and she wouldn't miss it if she were asleep! So I'll consult with the other members of the household and see what they think.

As for just letting her "ride out" the night terrors - I agree in theory that it's better than us all getting worked up and shouting and trying to snap her out of it, but from what I hear online they can go on for hours even when they're being ignored. Do we really have to just grit our teeth and listen to her bellow for an hour a night for the next however many months? That's a LONG time. I don't think our flatmate will be too keen on that. :/  If it were just for a few minutes we'd all understand, but an HOUR of screaming? We just can't function that way! But I guess we don't really have a choice, as stopping it seems to be impossible anyway. Gah. Seriously, why does drugging children get such a bad rap? Wouldn't we all be happier with a little dose of laudanum? Hmm, maybe we should all drug ourselves instead...

[MamaMem]

My mom told me that  my great grandma always said to give children more calcium when they have night terrors. It seemed to help when my oldest ds went through that stage. Also, I might look for a homoepathic remedy. Try Hylands Calms Forte` and Nerve Tonic.

[madcap150]

We are in similar situations; we keep late hours, my DS is the same age and I'm also 12 weeks pregnant, and he's done something similar to these night terror/screaming fit things, though not lately. The big change we made is that when I got pregnant and exhausted, I reinstituted mandatory naps (which he had started skipping). So we still stay up late and get up late, which works better for our family, but he and I nap from 3 - 5 or 6 every afternoon. If for some reason we don't nap at that time, I would rather have him nap starting at 5 pm (and thus stay up later) than not nap at all because he gets so overtired. And he does better taking a late nap and then staying up somewhat later than skipping nap.

So maybe if your DD naps daily, it will help her not be so overtired. I've also discovered that my son does better if he knows he's going to bed--- i.e. if we get in bed, read books, turn out the light, rather than if he just falls asleep and we move him.

I hope things get better soon!

[Cutie Patootie]

My ds had night terrors.  They were awful and I don't remember him acting scared for the most part.  Really, the key is more sleep and *consistency*.  If you want your hours to stay the same, I would axe the falling asleep to the tv and just put her to bed at the time she normally falls asleep after a bath and book, etc...and then do that every night at the same time.  Naps at the same time, too.  That is what helped us.  When we had an off day I knew for certain what we would be dealing with that night.  It just wasn't worth it for us.  Plus, broken sleep is never good.  If you are waking her to brush her teeth at 11:30 after she is sound asleep, even if she falls right back to sleep, it's disrupting her deep sleep pattern.  I would definitely give a consistent bedtime routine a try, even at late night and see if it doesn't help a lot. :)

ETA:  I know it's been said, but the more "hoop and holler" you do frantically trying to get her to stop, the longer it will go on.  :(

[GoBecGo]

I had night terrors.  I didn't grow out of them until i was 17!  And with me it was definitely terror, i used to wet the bed in fear during them (even when i was 17).  I'm not sure if that's what's going on - i could not respond during a night terror, so i wouldn't talk, couldn't have walked anywhere, wouldn't have tried to change the subject etc.  I would scream and scream, my parents would find me usually sitting up in bed with a look of abject horror on my face and i would be totally unresponsive and screaming and screaming while they talked to me.  Eventually i would somehow "wake" a bit, then become lucid and calm down.

Things that helped:

Having a regular, fixed bedtime (it doesn't need to be early, it just needs to be consistent) with a routine before it which helped my body and brain to know that sleep time is coming.

Not having tv for a good hour before i began the bedtime routine.

Having a milky drink helped me settle down.

Sleeping in a dark quiet room (no bright lights on or tv on while i slept).

Another thing which worked for a time (i tended to have spells of them and then none for a few months) was for my parents to pay attention to when i was having them (easier with a regular bedtime as it was usually 3.5 hours before i fell asleep) and then wake me just before they predicted i would have one, get me to go to the toilet or something, and that seemed to stop me having one that night.

[heathenmom]

This may or may not resonate with you, but I'll offer our experience.  DD was never a great sleeper, but started having "night terrors" at about 18 months or so.  The episodes got progressively worse and more frequent, until I was nearly insane from lack of sleep ... I was about 3 months pregnant, dd#1 was just over 2 y/o and she was waking every hour on the hour.  She'd scream for 30-45 minutes, sleep for 15, then wake screaming again.  I posted in this forum in sheer desperation and some dear, dear mama suggested that it might be a food issue:  she specifically mentioned dairy intolerance.  At the time, dd was obsessed with dairy products of all kinds.  Every meal and snack involved some sort of cheese, milk, or yogurt.  I couldn't imagine how we'd take her 100% off dairy but we were desperate enough to try.  Literally, within 24 hours of being completely dairy-free, she was sleeping peacefully through the night.  It was like a miracle for our family.  About a week into our elimination diet, we had a brand of sausage that I didn't normally buy and she had a terror that night.  I checked the ingredients and yep ... casein.

We kept her dairy-free for a good 6 months, then began to cautiously add it back in very limited amounts with no recurrence.  She was eating dairy normally again by the time she was 4 (maybe sooner).

This may not fit your experience at all, but because it helped us so much I always  offer it as a possibility when I hear of a family struggling with sleep issues that sound like night terrors.  Take care.  :hug

[plantnerd]

Could she have growing pains in her legs?  I remember how awful those hurt.

[Smokering]

She had two "episodes" last night. The first one I managed to stave off with the milks (somewhat reluctantly, as I REALLY don't want to go back to all-night snackathons - but it's marginally more restful than the screaming, at least...). The second was pretty "full-blown" and lasted maybe 20-30 minutes? We didn't engage - actually, I think DH might have been asleep through sheer exhaustion! - and she didn't get to the same fever pitch of screaming on previous nights, so.... yay? :p Eventually her wailing started to flag and I was able to calm her down by singing to her. She rolled over and hugged me and went to sleep.

I'm wondering if I should get her a cal/mag supplement? The calcium thing might be worth trying, and someone on another forum mentioned leg cramps too - magnesium helps with those, right? (I need to get a cal/mag for me anyway, in a possibly futile effort to prevent a recurrence of pre-eclampsia.)

Today we'll try another long nap (maybe a bit earlier than yesterday's) and an earlier, no-TV-beforehand bedtime. I think we'll try that for a few days... and if it doesn't work, maybe I'll have to look into the casein thing. Ack. I REALLY hope it isn't allergies. She absolutely loves dairy (yes, she is eating a fair bit of it at the moment - we're on a smoothie kick and she loves cheese), and we're TF so I use a lot of butter and things in cooking. (Sadly, I don't have a source for raw milk at the moment, which I know can be less allergenic, although I think that's for lactose-intolerance, not the casein thing...)

Thanks for all the advice! I really wish there was an easier fix for this...

[Smokering]

Bought a cal/mag powder (dairy-free, just in case!) yesterday, and gave DD the maximum recommended dosage for her age just before bed. We didn't get an early nap in after all due to running errands in town, but she had a LONG 3.5-hour nap from 5 to 8:30, and woke up very cheerful. Ate dinner sans TV, went to bed at 10:45 (which is semi-early for us, sad to say - DH was working and didn't join us until 12:30!).... and no waking!

She made a couple of preliminary whimpers a few times, but that was it. Thank goodness (although, darn it all, I still didn't sleep well - I think I was waiting for her to wake up!)... I dunno if it was the nap, the cal/mag, or what, but I hope it lasts!

[heathenmom]

That's fantastic!  Fingers crossed for you that it works long-term.  :)

[Smokering]

Well, so far it's still working! And that's without the cal/mag (not intentionally, we just forgot a few times). Thank heavens... she may yet live to see the age of three.

[widemouthedfrog]

My dd went through this around the same age. It lasted for 2-3 months. I agree with a pp - when it happened, I actually found I had to completely wake her up, walk around the house carrying her, read a book at look out at the dark. After about 20-30 minutes she would come back to the real world and willingly (albeit not easily) go back to sleep. 

And getting her to bed "early" (we are also late go-to-bed-ers) also helped.
 

[MrsBone]

Does she have her two year molars yet? I don't know exactly when they are supposed to come in, but DS I think is teething (I don't see anything in there) but he has been drooling and chewing on stuff more (DS is almost 2) and occasionally wakes up inconsolable in the middle of the night. The other night he was up from 1:50-4 am. I tried to let him sleep in our bed but he just rolled around and kept crying randomly. Finally I gave him some ibuprofen and took him back into his room. He fell asleep pretty quickly after that. I don't know if it was the ibuprofen or being in his own room, But for the past week we had been working on a pretty strict schedule. Dinner at 6, bath at 6:30, books at 7, laying down in his bed with a sippy and he is usually out by 8. Did that all week, but that one night he was up till about 10(I got home late with him) and that's when he woke up alot. Not sure what caused it. I don't have any real advice, I just wanted to commiserate with you a bit, although it doesn't seem nearly as bad over here as it does with you guys! I weaned ds 1 month ago, so i don't have that milk back up! :) I was dreading pushing the bedtime back too, as I'm not a morning person, but since I've done it, he's slept longer at night..like 12 hours instead of 10. So, I don't know..maybe there's something to it!? She could also try to be giving up naps, but is not quite ready. I know my nephew went through this for about 6 months before he finally gave them up. He'd go days without a nap, then be so overtired that he'd go to bed at 5pm and sleep till 7. So yeah..it could just be a rough time for awhile, sorry hun!