Banning computer play for 16 yr old?

[Lisa1970]

My 16 yr old does have some learning issues. He is in the same school as my daughter, which I have complained about for her, but he loves it. I was unsure if I should have posted this under teen parenting, special needs parenting, or general so I just put it here.

He is a smart child, but has a low processing ability. He frequently lies to us. Not drugs or anything, but if he gets asks if he did something, he automatically says yes when he did not really. He does not even give it thought. We have been getting him to where he is finally doing his school work, for now. But he has lied repeatedly and claimed he did the work and turned it in and the teacher is the bad one, only to find out he was lying. He is currently caught up on all his work except for 2 assignments. 

Problem is, the math education at this school is so horrible, that we agreed we would study math outside of school. He gets out early 3 days a week (12:45) so there is no issue with him not having the time. His chores are very small considering his age. I only ask that he empty the dishwasher and take his own dirty clothes off his floor and put it in the laundry. He is also expected to put away his own clean clothes, but that rarely happens. I need to get on to him more on this. Back to the math, I asked that he do a little math out of a math book that he picked out. I spent a fair amount of money to get him the book he wanted rather than making him use the same his sister uses. He kept telling me he was working out of it. But I became suspicious lately so I told him there would be a test this week, given by me, on Saturday night, over the first 4 chapters. Fine. When the time came, he completely lied to me and said he had studied a ton. I had him do 12 problems from the end of chapter 4. He missed 9 of them. Then he said it was just graphing. I explained that graphing is what the entire chapter was on. I decided to back up and go to chapter one and asked him to do the algebra review on the first page. He did it, and missed 50%!!! That is al algebra 1 review! He is in Algebra 2! Plus, it became clear he had never opened the book before as he did not even realize the answers were in the book. Page 1 was the algebra review, page 2 and 3 were answers and explanations. 

This is a child, whom every single time I come in to his room, is on the computer playing games. Now before you say anything about the computer being in his room, we do completely monitor every single thing he does on there, and his school requires a laptop to be brought to class and his work is done on the computer. Also, because he has adhd, having him keep the computer in the main living area is impractical because he says he cannot concentrate.

My dh and I are frustrated over the fact that he seems to find hours each day to play on the computer, but not enough time to keep up with his school work. He continues to lie to us. He is considering not going to college, but does not even do his own laundry or such so it is not like he has life skills to take care of himself, despite graduation being only 2.5 yrs off. The recurrent lying about stuff has gone on for years. We have dealt with constant lying from him. Plus, he just got his drivers license and I do not trust him to drive because I know how he lies all the time. What if he got in to an accident? I am afraid we would never get the truth out of him.

Anyway, I am thinking I should tell him no computer play until Christmas, assuming he gets caught up by then. What do you think?

edited to add: I am trying to say, it is not that he is below grade level in math. He is actually on the accelerated track. However, he is a bit immature and has attention problems. His teacher is a joke at his school. He claims he wants to go to college in computer science, so I do not think it is good to let the math go by the wayside due to a bad teacher. So we are home schooling the math on the side. He is doing fine in the class at school. But the class at school is not really teaching the subject. They don't even have textbooks. So my son has been playing these video games all the time and claiming he does not have the time to keep up with his responsibilities at home or his home work. Since I made this post, I got an email from a teacher saying he has turned in none of his school work for the last two weeks. Not the math teacher, it is a different class. So he is not falling behind in the math class in school.

Edited by Lisa1970 - 11/29/10 at 9:00pm

[lilyka]

Ok so he has not received adequate math instruction at school and has problems following through with school work.  but you expect him to sit down with a book and teach himself math?

Would banning him from the computer help him with math or will he just grump around about not being allowed on the computer.  My guess is the second. 

I am not saying you shouldn't limit computer time.  But I don't think limiting will address the school work problem.  But perhaps there are some better solutions.

First for math i would hire a tutor. Find a tutor who works with kids who are behind grade level even better if they are trained to work with kids who have learning issues.  They will be a neutral party.  without any parent child drama.  Also if you can do it in a neutral location is will enable him to focus in on learning time without the distraction of the computer or other things fighting for his attention.

If you want to limit his computer time how about letting him get a job.  It sounds like his life is pretty idle.  a job would help with that leaving less time for computer.  and when he does have computer time it will be time well earned.  Having a job will also help with math skills like managing time and money (far more important than algebra anyway).  he might need a lot of parent involvement at first (helping him fill out applications, making sure he got his schedule and gets to work on time every day.  Eventually the paycheck will be motivation enough for him or not but i think it is ok to hold their hand for a while if they need that.  These are skill they may not be born with and it is fine to teach them.)  

And once he is going to tutoring and if he is working and doing chores does it really matter if he is spending time putzing around on the computer?

[Lisa1970]

The book explains the topics very well and he was lying to me and telling me he was doing it and understanding it with no troubles. By learning problems, I am not referring to something that affects his ability to do math. He lied to me and let me believe he was having no troubles doing the math from the books I purchased for him. He actually has been in the accelerated track in math, but his math teacher does not bother to teach. Plus, the school does not even have textbooks! So he is not below grade level, and he is passing the class at the school. He claims he wants to major in computer science in college, but won't study.

But this goes beyond the math, it is the chores and general, everything in his life. He wants to play the computer games all the time, but then cannot seem to have the time to do the minimal chores or school work.

[CherryBombMama]

im interested in why you didnt know he was playing on his computer this whole time? im not trying to be rude, but my parents never let me close the door when my computer was in my room until i was 18 mostly because they didnt trust online strangers. and if you dont trust him with telling the truth, why is he allowed to drive? esp at 16? im really not trying to be snarky, and i dont have any teens yet, but at 16 (which is almost an adult who requires freedom yet still a kid who needs supervision) that would not fly with my parents.

[SubliminalDarkness]

It's a laptop? You need to keep it, and only allow him to have it to do school work. When he can show you he can do school work, he can earn back a certain amount of time on the computer per day.

I guess I'm missing the point, but what is the problem with him not being able to concentrate on games? If he can't get completely immersed in them, maybe he'll play less. 

ETA: I did a similar thing as this when I was in high school. I was home-schooled for a while, but my mom worked part-time, so I was on my own to do a lot of stuff. I lied. I spent my time surfing the internet. I didn't do my work, and it did bite me in the butt later on. It would have sucked at the time, but I wish my parents had taken the computer mouse or something while they were gone. I was also supposed to be doing school work ON the computer, which I'm sure was the reason why they left it as they did, but they should have had me stick to book based work. 

[velochic]

There seems to be 3 separate issues and I'm not convinced they are all inter-related.

1. He lies.

2. He doesn't do his homework or study adequately.

3. He spends too much time on the computer playing video games.

The last one seems to be the easy one.  Don't let him have the computer unless you can monitor that he is actually using it for school work and not game playing.  You say you don't want him playing for hours... um, you're the parent here.  Until he can show that he can concentrate on his schoolwork, he can't play video games.  I know gaming families disagree, but studies such as are explained in The Plug-in Drug by Marie Winn show that video games exacerbate the problems of ADHD because they move fast enough that a kid doesn't have to have an attention span longer than 20 seconds, on average.  Offer other activities that require long attention spans.  It sounds like he is addicted, which is a very real problem.

Not doing his homework is a bit more difficult to handle.  You can't really force a kid to do homework, but you can provide a better environment to get it done.  Not having a computer will give him the time he needs to get it done.  Perhaps you can set up a special area for him to work in that's been "designed" by him.  A study nook or area where the only thing that gets done in the area is homework.  The other thing it seems you'll have to do is supervise him 100% of the time because you can't trust him to get it done on his own.  If he doesn't want to be treated like a child, then he needs to show he can be responsible on his own.  Just as an aside... my 8 yo 3rd grader does all of her homework without any prompting and manages her own time to make sure she gets it done, so I know this is not an extraordinary expectation of a 16 yo.

Lying.  For that, I would get counseling.  If he is a pathological liar, that is an emotional issue that can be helped professionally.  Again, this is typical addictive behavior.  He is lying about other things because he is spending all of his time on an addictive activity... playing video games. 

All in all, I pretty much agree with some of the pps that have said that they're not sure quite what the point is.  It sounds like he needs supervision.  I don't understand why he still has your trust since you know he lies.  And I also don't understand how he can play video games for hours with your knowledge, but you don't want him doing so.  Um... yeah, just take away the laptop and require that its use is with supervision only.

ETA: I just thought I'd address the comments about majoring in computer science.  My dh is a computer science professor and I am a former programmer/analyst.  You would not BELIEVE the number of kids that come to dh (he does undergrad advising) and say, "I love video games.  I want to major in CS."  It is one of the biggest sources of frustration for him as an advisor.  The math is intense for CS.  You have to walk into classroom with a good calculus background or you are in the weeds already.  Most kids who will go on to college and major in CS are programming in high school and spending time solving algorithmic problems.  They are studying pre-calc as a junior and calculus as a senior.  They are *not* spending all of their time playing video games.  In fact, dh is quite adamant that our own dd not play video games because he says they are detrimental to logical problem solving.  His worst students are those that play a lot of video games and think that gaming = computer science.  It doesn't.

[SubliminalDarkness]

Originally Posted by velochic 

There seems to be 3 separate issues and I'm not convinced they are all inter-related.

1. He lies.

2. He doesn't do his homework or study adequately.

3. He spends too much time on the computer playing video games.

The last one seems to be the easy one.  Don't let him have the computer unless you can monitor that he is actually using it for school work and not game playing.  You say you don't want him playing for hours... um, you're the parent here.  Until he can show that he can concentrate on his schoolwork, he can't play video games.  I know gaming families disagree, but studies such as are explained in The Plug-in Drug by Marie Winn show that video games exacerbate the problems of ADHD because they move fast enough that a kid doesn't have to have an attention span longer than 20 seconds, on average.  Offer other activities that require long attention spans.  It sounds like he is addicted, which is a very real problem.

Not doing his homework is a bit more difficult to handle.  You can't really force a kid to do homework, but you can provide a better environment to get it done.  Not having a computer will give him the time he needs to get it done.  Perhaps you can set up a special area for him to work in that's been "designed" by him.  A study nook or area where the only thing that gets done in the area is homework.  The other thing it seems you'll have to do is supervise him 100% of the time because you can't trust him to get it done on his own.  If he doesn't want to be treated like a child, then he needs to show he can be responsible on his own.  Just as an aside... my 8 yo 3rd grader does all of her homework without any prompting and manages her own time to make sure she gets it done, so I know this is not an extraordinary expectation of a 16 yo.

Lying.  For that, I would get counseling.  If he is a pathological liar, that is an emotional issue that can be helped professionally.  Again, this is typical addictive behavior.  He is lying about other things because he is spending all of his time on an addictive activity... playing video games. 

All in all, I pretty much agree with some of the pps that have said that they're not sure quite what the point is.  It sounds like he needs supervision.  I don't understand why he still has your trust since you know he lies.  And I also don't understand how he can play video games for hours with your knowledge, but you don't want him doing so.  Um... yeah, just take away the laptop and require that its use is with supervision only.

ETA: I just thought I'd address the comments about majoring in computer science.  My dh is a computer science professor and I am a former programmer/analyst.  You would not BELIEVE the number of kids that come to dh (he does undergrad advising) and say, "I love video games.  I want to major in CS."  It is one of the biggest sources of frustration for him as an advisor.  The math is intense for CS.  You have to walk into classroom with a good calculus background or you are in the weeds already.  Most kids who will go on to college and major in CS are programming in high school and spending time solving algorithmic problems.  They are studying pre-calc as a junior and calculus as a senior.  They are *not* spending all of their time playing video games.  In fact, dh is quite adamant that our own dd not play video games because he says they are detrimental to logical problem solving.  His worst students are those that play a lot of video games and think that gaming = computer science.  It doesn't.

I think your DH would like my DH. My DH majored in computer science at UMD and he HATES video games with a burning passion. lol. 

[Lisa1970]

Originally Posted by CherryBombMama 

im interested in why you didnt know he was playing on his computer this whole time? im not trying to be rude, but my parents never let me close the door when my computer was in my room until i was 18 mostly because they didnt trust online strangers. and if you dont trust him with telling the truth, why is he allowed to drive? esp at 16? im really not trying to be snarky, and i dont have any teens yet, but at 16 (which is almost an adult who requires freedom yet still a kid who needs supervision) that would not fly with my parents.

I knew he played the computer, I was trying to show him trust when he would tell me that he did do his school work. He was warned if he did not keep up with his work, he would lose things. He is not allowed to drive. He got his license last week and wants to drive. But as of yet, he is not allowed. He drives with us present. 

Since he was told he would lose the computer game stuff if he did not keep up on his school work, then if it were just the school work, it would be a no brainer, he would lose it. The parental controls are such that you can set so they only have access to the sites they need, rather than just blocking them from sites. Plus I can see his history. Right now, he is pretty much open on the access he is allowed, but I can see where he has been. 

So these are outside of school things he has not been doing...the extra math and his chores. I did speak to him about it last night though and he is asking that I make him a list of all he needs to do each day to earn the computer. Then he will make sure he does them first and checks with me before getting on computer games. I have told him what he needs to do and at 16, he should be able to write it all down himself. But I guess he needs this extra help.

Another thing is, I think I need to accept that he will not be ready for a life on his own when he graduates. He is just not mature enough. It is too bad because he is definitely smart enough.

[Lisa1970]

My husband's degree is computer science and math and mine is computer science and economics.

He was seeing a counselor through special education to address these issues basically. I guess I should not have asked the question if I did not want to be more specific about his special needs. I just hate to post that info on public board. 
 

Originally Posted by velochic 

There seems to be 3 separate issues and I'm not convinced they are all inter-related.

1. He lies.

2. He doesn't do his homework or study adequately.

3. He spends too much time on the computer playing video games.

The last one seems to be the easy one.  Don't let him have the computer unless you can monitor that he is actually using it for school work and not game playing.  You say you don't want him playing for hours... um, you're the parent here.  Until he can show that he can concentrate on his schoolwork, he can't play video games.  I know gaming families disagree, but studies such as are explained in The Plug-in Drug by Marie Winn show that video games exacerbate the problems of ADHD because they move fast enough that a kid doesn't have to have an attention span longer than 20 seconds, on average.  Offer other activities that require long attention spans.  It sounds like he is addicted, which is a very real problem.

Not doing his homework is a bit more difficult to handle.  You can't really force a kid to do homework, but you can provide a better environment to get it done.  Not having a computer will give him the time he needs to get it done.  Perhaps you can set up a special area for him to work in that's been "designed" by him.  A study nook or area where the only thing that gets done in the area is homework.  The other thing it seems you'll have to do is supervise him 100% of the time because you can't trust him to get it done on his own.  If he doesn't want to be treated like a child, then he needs to show he can be responsible on his own.  Just as an aside... my 8 yo 3rd grader does all of her homework without any prompting and manages her own time to make sure she gets it done, so I know this is not an extraordinary expectation of a 16 yo.

Lying.  For that, I would get counseling.  If he is a pathological liar, that is an emotional issue that can be helped professionally.  Again, this is typical addictive behavior.  He is lying about other things because he is spending all of his time on an addictive activity... playing video games. 

All in all, I pretty much agree with some of the pps that have said that they're not sure quite what the point is.  It sounds like he needs supervision.  I don't understand why he still has your trust since you know he lies.  And I also don't understand how he can play video games for hours with your knowledge, but you don't want him doing so.  Um... yeah, just take away the laptop and require that its use is with supervision only.

ETA: I just thought I'd address the comments about majoring in computer science.  My dh is a computer science professor and I am a former programmer/analyst.  You would not BELIEVE the number of kids that come to dh (he does undergrad advising) and say, "I love video games.  I want to major in CS."  It is one of the biggest sources of frustration for him as an advisor.  The math is intense for CS.  You have to walk into classroom with a good calculus background or you are in the weeds already.  Most kids who will go on to college and major in CS are programming in high school and spending time solving algorithmic problems.  They are studying pre-calc as a junior and calculus as a senior.  They are *not* spending all of their time playing video games.  In fact, dh is quite adamant that our own dd not play video games because he says they are detrimental to logical problem solving.  His worst students are those that play a lot of video games and think that gaming = computer science.  It doesn't.

[SilverFish]

frankly, i feel badly for your son. the math issue especially, since i can't tell from what you posted whether the lying is extreme or normal. i lied to my parents at least once a day from the day i turned 14 til i moved out at 18. they weren't interested in having a conversation with me, they just wanted confirmation i was doing what they wanted me to, so i told them what they wanted to hear. not saying that it's right, just saying that it's pretty normal.

anyway. you are sending completely mixed messages to the poor kid... first you want him to apply himself in school and do well in all subjects. you also say he has special needs, so realistically, being academically successful by your standards might not even be possible. when he doesn't do well in school, you get upset with him. however, you have just randomly decided that one of his teachers is crap, and therefore he's going to have to do school work outside of school. for what motivator? he's not getting a high school credit out of it, he's not getting a college credit, he's not getting out of his responsibilities in math class at school, either. you aren't giving him any real rewards for motivating himself, and in the same step you're also eroding the respect you expect him to have for his teachers and his school work.

what would be the real consequences of him not doing extra math outside of school? if he gets decent marks in his high school classes, no college will know he had a terrible math teacher, and if math is required for what he wants to study, he will find a way to catch up once at college. if he doesn't get decent marks because his teacher can't teach, then offering to find him a tutor is reasonable. if he doesn't care about math and doesn't want to go to college, no convincing, cajoling or bossing on your part will convince him to change. he will find his own way, and it might not include college at all. he is really at the age where only he can take responsibility for his education... you should be guiding and offering resources, not breathing over his shoulder every step of the way.

as for the video games, again, i can't speak to that from your post. it doesn't necessarily seem excessive, except in that he doesn't seem to have many other responsibilities so obviously he has plenty of time for games. some people don't do well with vast quantities of free time, me included. i would think a part-time job would be an excellent thing for him to have. with his early dismissal time, he could easily find a great position doing something he's really interested in, that might lead to some great opportunities once he is done high school. 

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by Lisa1970 

So these are outside of school things he has not been doing...the extra math and his chores. I did speak to him about it last night though and he is asking that I make him a list of all he needs to do each day to earn the computer. Then he will make sure he does them first and checks with me before getting on computer games. I have told him what he needs to do and at 16, he should be able to write it all down himself. But I guess he needs this extra help.

Another thing is, I think I need to accept that he will not be ready for a life on his own when he graduates. He is just not mature enough. It is too bad because he is definitely smart enough.

If he's got learning issues, then no, he may not be able to do this on his own yet. He still needs the external scaffolding  that a parent can provide. A lot of kids aren't ready for life on their own at 18. That's why a lot of smaller colleges are designed to provide a lot of support.

One thing that you may have him do is to look up the degree requirements for CS at a number of different schools (maybe 2-3 schools a week). He'll see then how important advanced math is.

[Tigerchild]

I would be reluctant to have a draconian reaction over the video games.  It seems that you place no value on them at all, but I hope you will consider that your son might feel differently.

I think that he has definitely broken your trust, and therefore the computer should be removed from his room and he can use it only when in direct supervision.  I think that alone might improve getting work done first, although admittedly it's a real pain in the butt for you.  BUT--when he has completed his work in a specified period of time, I think that it's okay to let him blow off some steam with games.  For a lot of people it's like playing solitaire or whatever, brain candy to unwind.

I think too that perhaps you are thinking way too far ahead here as well.  I'm a little concerned about some of your expectations as well.  IME, when a parent has sky high expectations (you're disappointed because your son who has some attention issues/other problems is not going to be ready to be self-sufficient independent at 18?  A lot of kids aren't, esp. if they have not had to fend for themselves, which I hope your son has not.) and the kid knows they can't meet them (esp. if there is a sibling that does) they often just give up.  I think it's good that you've noticed the imbalance between work and play on the computer--this is a very common problem even amongst adults (tell it true, MDCers, how many of us are farting around on MDC when we should be doing something else?  Hmmmm?  Oh yeah, what we're doing is valuabe, more valuable than blowing up aliens.  Honestly.  We'll get to that laundry/term paper/dishes/whatever as soon as we finish with this important arguement with people on the internet!).  This is an excellent time to help him learn how to do that and to acknowledge how hard that is for MOST people.  Maybe not you, OP, but obviously your son is different.  You can research together ways to stay on task and to experiment.  Timer?  Reminder?  Other strategies?  It's going to take some time for him to be able to do it.  I am 36, have been online since I was 17, and I STILL get sucked into wikipedia for hours if I don't set three timers, it's even worse than my book reading.

So.  No, I would not ban the computer play 100 percent.  If you caught your daughter reading a forbidden novel, would you ban her from reading until after Christmas?  It's not likely to have the effect you want.  I might consider removing all games from the school laptop if he's downloaded some, again, direct supervision, timed space to get work done after which if he has extra time he can play something on the family computer, ect.  If you have been allowing him to play MMOs or MU*s I might reconsider that though, at least until he earns some trust back.  There is something about the human interaction combined with computer gaming that has many good aspects but may just be too intense if he's already having time management problems, and it will only serve him in the long run to learn time management before/if he gets into those.

I think though that you have to be careful about being overly punitive about a hobby that you don't care for.

[UnschoolnMa]

 I think banning the computer would be the worst thing you could do in this situation. IMO, it's probably one of the things he feels he has any "say" over. I also think that 16 is plenty old enough to use the computer without being monitored. If you feel the time spent on the PC is interfering with the studies I would begin a conversation about that, being careful to keep it calm and non-confrontational. Perhaps come at it with a "This is what we're seeing happening... this is how we feel about it... how do you think we can make it better?" POV?

Finding a math helper that he really clicks with may be very helpful. Also, does he seem to handle studying better at certain times of day? With music? After eating something? Those things can help too.  Maybe the two of you can set up a way for  a casual homework reminder? My son used to prefer working on something difficult in small increments of like 20 min at a time. :)

[waiting2bemommy]

as someone npot far removed from teenagehood myself, I think you are sending your ds mixed messages.

If you want him to be self sufficient and independent (in whatever capacity he is able to, based on his maturity and abilities) then you have to back up that goal with your actions. It sounds like you are kind of micromanaging him while still expecting him to behave maturely.

He needs more chores. My 3 year old has more chores than your 16 year old.

Some ideas:

have him do the grocery shopping. I empathize with his desire to drive but I also udnerstand that you can't trust him at his point. grocery shopping is a concrete errand with a set purpose and a set amount of time. You can hand him a list, a reasonable amount of money, a cellphone amd give him a time to be back. if you wnat to throw in some practical math skills, tell him that whatever money is left after he's bought everything on the list is his to keep. let him compare prices and look for deals.

make him cook dinner at least once a week! nothing is worse than a man who can't feed himself!

he should also be doing his own laundry and cleaning his own bathroom.

As far as the computer goes, just compleletely banning it is probably going to lock you two into a power struggle. Maybe just do a major overhaul of how things are being run at home. dont' tie it into his math work, or his lying or any of your issues so that he doesn't feel attacked. Just say something like, "I feel overwhlemed bby all the work in the house and I feel like you guys aren't learning the skills you need, so here is how it's going to be." Lay out the new "expectations" -not rules, and include computer use in them. something like "I will need to see written proof of your math work before I let you at the computer." and then the onus is on him to make that happen. I don't see why it matters where he uses it as long as you can see what he's doing (like popping your head in his room) and he takes care of his priorities first.

he needs a job too. I am one of those people who think that teenagers should have jobs. I earned my own money from the age of 11 or 12 and I have a good work ethic now. A lot of my peers who did not have to work until college couldn't figure out how to get a job (partly because they had NO job experience/interview experience/resume). They had no concept of money management because they knew next week's allowance would still be there if they blew this week's allowance. they didn't value the money as much because they hadn't worked for it. And they lacked the interpersonal skills needed for success at a job.

now I don't have a teenager, so I might be totally off,  but I think that is what I would have responded to at that age. hth!

[Gucci&Granola]

Originally Posted by waiting2bemommy 

as someone npot far removed from teenagehood myself, I think you are sending your ds mixed messages.

If you want him to be self sufficient and independent (in whatever capacity he is able to, based on his maturity and abilities) then you have to back up that goal with your actions. It sounds like you are kind of micromanaging him while still expecting him to behave maturely.

He needs more chores. My 3 year old has more chores than your 16 year old.

Some ideas:

have him do the grocery shopping. I empathize with his desire to drive but I also udnerstand that you can't trust him at his point. grocery shopping is a concrete errand with a set purpose and a set amount of time. You can hand him a list, a reasonable amount of money, a cellphone amd give him a time to be back. if you wnat to throw in some practical math skills, tell him that whatever money is left after he's bought everything on the list is his to keep. let him compare prices and look for deals.

make him cook dinner at least once a week! nothing is worse than a man who can't feed himself!

he should also be doing his own laundry and cleaning his own bathroom.

As far as the computer goes, just compleletely banning it is probably going to lock you two into a power struggle. Maybe just do a major overhaul of how things are being run at home. dont' tie it into his math work, or his lying or any of your issues so that he doesn't feel attacked. Just say something like, "I feel overwhlemed bby all the work in the house and I feel like you guys aren't learning the skills you need, so here is how it's going to be." Lay out the new "expectations" -not rules, and include computer use in them. something like "I will need to see written proof of your math work before I let you at the computer." and then the onus is on him to make that happen. I don't see why it matters where he uses it as long as you can see what he's doing (like popping your head in his room) and he takes care of his priorities first.

he needs a job too. I am one of those people who think that teenagers should have jobs. I earned my own money from the age of 11 or 12 and I have a good work ethic now. A lot of my peers who did not have to work until college couldn't figure out how to get a job (partly because they had NO job experience/interview experience/resume). They had no concept of money management because they knew next week's allowance would still be there if they blew this week's allowance. they didn't value the money as much because they hadn't worked for it. And they lacked the interpersonal skills needed for success at a job.

now I don't have a teenager, so I might be totally off,  but I think that is what I would have responded to at that age. hth!

Yes to all of that.  Jobs, consequences, reasonable expectations, responsibility, and consistency are all so important to the maturation process.

This might be slightly off topic, but my husband and I both worry about the state of males in this country and what it will entail to raise a responsible and healthy boy.  I found this article about the growing gender gap interesting.  Do we as a society have lower expectations for our male children, is it affecting the men they grow up to be?  It sounds like you really care about your son, hang in there.

[mamaofthree]

i see nothing wrong with shutting down the computer for a period of time if he can not get his other stuff done. sitting for hours and hours in front of a screen is just not good for the brain. this whole idea that he needs to fill his spare time with hours on computer games is just silly. what did bored teens do 100 years ago? no texting, no computers, no phones... egads! maybe a job would help him out, or having more things to do around the house. learning to cook, do the wash, work in the yard. i mean all of these are life skills, being able to beat your high score is not. 

maybe that math book isn't speaking to him, maybe seeing if you can get another math book on line that is cheaper and you can test out a few to see which one works best for him. you can get used text books on amazon for really cheap. encourage reading in his free time, even just magazines (like computer magazines or ones on cars or cooking or whatever lights his fire) maybe doing some charity work to have him think outside the box as to what he wants to do when he is out of high school. 

you might want to have him talk to a counselor about his lying. although i know most people tell an occational lie, if it seems like too much to you, maybe you both should see someone. why does he feel the need to lie all the time about certain thing?

h

[GuildJenn]

First I think at 16 he needs to be involved in the problem-solving around this. So anything I say, he might come up with something better.

I think there is a lot of room between "no computer at all" and "any gaming he wants." I would sit down with him and come up with a plan, probably that he doesn't use the computer on his three short days of school, or any school days.  But at 16, I would reserve the "no privileges ever again" for something more serious than not applying himself to extra math work on his own.  I think it's more likely to demotivate him than motivate him.

I would supervise the studying (like, after dinner in the kitchen or something) if it is that critical. Although I do think that it would be better to find him a class or even a tutor, to give him structure with it (since not having it hasn't worked).  If you don't want to go that way I think your expectations have to be a bit clearer...obviously HE is the one who blew it, but springing a 4-chapter test on him is something that as a teen I would have felt was unfair and not respected.

I agree that he needs more responsibility for other things too.

For the lying - that seems like a deeper issue in some ways. I lied as a teen because my parents were never willing to hear anything that wasn't what they wanted to hear. But it would have taken a lot of counselling to fix.

[mamaofthree]

ok, this is coming from a homeschooling mom who does not believe in testing... BUT since when is it wrong, if you believe in testing, to expect a child who has said he is studying and doing the work and getting it (per him) to do well on a test. that is sort of what a test is, to test your knowledge. why do we need to have them know all that is going to be on a test, anything could be on it, hence it is a test. i never understood that logic. when i took tests in HS and college i assumed that it could be over any and all the stuff i was taking the class on and studied for it. i didn't expect the teacher to spoon feed me all the info that would be on the test. maybe part of his issue is he doesn't know how to study, some methods are more effective then others. and if you have troubles studying learning how to study is really helpful.

h

[littlest birds]

I sympathize.  My dd has done similar things although she is homeschooled full time.  (She had gone from an A/B student to flunking when we committed to homeschooling two years ago and actually had a weird, similar experience with a math class.)  She used to be home on her own a fair bit, which ended quickly as I saw that she was not doing the schoolwork agreed.  My dd will not ask for help, she doesn't want input, she will skip or guess at problems instead of asking.  She also lies frequently and gets caught at it regularly.  She was finding answers in the back of her books, also would sneak calculator for problems involving easy computations even though she desperately needs to practice this.  Trust issues are related to many topics and we have our ups and downs as we work on this.  Honesty seems to be part of a selective extreme self-centeredness which does seem to be a constant theme among teens I encounter.  With maturity and a lot of "feedback" from me I am seeing this begin to resolve and a tendency to take responsibility for the fairness of her actions toward others.  It is getting better.

With not doing her schoolwork as agreed, we had let her be on her own too much.  The appearance of maturity deceived us into thinking she would follow through on agreements, when she really wasn't able.  She needed to be too sustained, when her inclinations were to be impulsive.  We started to supervise more.  She accounts for her activities in a planner.  We seek out materials that work better for independent work.  She is super smart but has trouble with math concepts as well.  She has ultimately learned to be fairly diligent on her own. 

Computer is fairly restricted for us.  She has had certain hours of the day when the computer is available for quite some time.  This started because she was getting on facebook in the middle of the night even after we talked to her about it several times--she kept sneaking.  She was getting plenty of access in the daytime but was on it as much as she could get away with.  For a little while, she would get into my account and reset the security for herself so she could still sneak on the computer in the middle of the night.  Eventually, in part because she has continually had trouble with getting up in the morning and in part for other reasons, we made her account available 8-10 AM.  She can use the computer in the daytime, but we have to sign her in.  She probably gets on an average of half an hour daily now.  Partly this is because she got very busy with a class and gymnastics club she's been doing.  The sign in has been good--not suitable for a laptop of her own though.

If she had a laptop computer, I would probably have her keep it on a shelf in the living room until she had completed her basic responsibilities for the day.  If she had them partially done and wanted to do something for a little while I would also be open to that but it would not be assumed.  With a history of abuse of that particular privilege, I am willing to restrict heavily.  I am also willing to gradually release those restrictions again and test things out.  Not a static rule but a responsive one.  Unfortunately, computer has been an addictive activity for dd that has caused significant harm to her ability to function along with other problems.  When she was smoking cigarettes and maneuvering every which way to do so, I did everything I could to restrict her ability to get them and after many months I succeeded in making it not worth it to her to continue.  Family should get in the way of addiction IMO.  Especially parents.

FWIW my dd wants a job but since she is so constantly tired, has trouble keeping up her basic chores, and won't get out of bed in the AM, we have so far said no.  Although if she can manage her time better, we would like to consider it.  She is taking a college class with some extra outside participation and wants to take 1-2 classes next semester.  It looked like she truly would not have time for job plus her home-school activities plus classes plus social life plus some family life as well.  DD does actively participate in cooking (once/week or less), cleaning, laundry (she does her own and helps with about 1/5 of family laundry) and pet care.  (That sounds like a lot but it's not--only pet care is daily and she adds a cleaning or laundry chore on 2 days/week)  I taught her to cook some of our regular family meals gradually, when her help was simply needed.  She enjoys the cooking and it might be a good place to start for you.  I notice that dd does better with family chores like getting towels folded and put away, sorting family laundry, etc. than personal chores like putting away her own laundry or getting the dirty dishes out of her own bedroom.  Somehow, if her help is needed for others it's not the same "mind your own business" kind of thing as her own stuff and space.  She has done a lot of babysitting jobs and some petsitting--I also have a business that she has done odd jobs for--but she isn't doing these very often this year.

Anyhow, I don't know if this helps but I want you to know that other kids have similar challenges.  Some teens have huge issues with motivation.  Also, we can believe in the value of honesty all we want and our teens may still simply consider it less important than getting their way.  We work on it, talk about it, I draw those boundaries again and again and again.  My dd has inconsistent life skills and and lacks plans or ambitions.  She has amazing gifts I think she will use somehow, and I have offered ideas, but for now she's not jumping on anything and I think that is okay.  I wish I didn't fear for her letting opportunities slip by and all but she needs to figure herself out.  We've been through a lot already, I am glad I intervened a lot, and I am seeing many things getting better now.  I hope you will too.

[GuildJenn]

Originally Posted by mamaofthree 

ok, this is coming from a homeschooling mom who does not believe in testing... BUT since when is it wrong, if you believe in testing, to expect a child who has said he is studying and doing the work and getting it (per him) to do well on a test. that is sort of what a test is, to test your knowledge. why do we need to have them know all that is going to be on a test, anything could be on it, hence it is a test. i never understood that logic. when i took tests in HS and college i assumed that it could be over any and all the stuff i was taking the class on and studied for it. i didn't expect the teacher to spoon feed me all the info that would be on the test. maybe part of his issue is he doesn't know how to study, some methods are more effective then others. and if you have troubles studying learning how to study is really helpful.

h

To me it's more the randomness of the sudden test + consequences of no video games that would impact on the relationship, motivation, etc. I wasn't suggesting "spoon feeding" it and I'm not sure where you got that impression.

I prefer a learning environment -and- a family home where the expectations for everyone are clear and consistent. Otherwise I think some people have a tendency to give up trying & communication breaks down.