the morning/bedtime meltdown saga

[myk]

i'm mom to a 6 year old girl who i'm having a lot of trouble with. she is generally a great kid, very bright, and well behaved in school and church. her difficulties are mostly in the morning and at bedtime. she turns from an angel into Demon Child. sometimes it's because she's tired or hungry (tired because she stayed up too late in spite of me having her on a regular bedtime, hungry because she refuses breakfast half the time). sometimes i really don't know what's triggering it, like this morning.

she woke up half an hour before the alarm, so i suspect she wasn't overtired. we got her to bed nice and early last night. she asked for breakfast, so i got her the cereal she asked for. when it was time to get dressed, she refused. she still wets at night, so she wears pullups. i asked her to come to the bathroom and take it off, go pee, etc. she refused. several times. she wouldn't tell me why (which might have helped me figure out what to do about it). eventually i lost my patience, walked over, and wrestled her out of her PJs and pullups.

then all hell broke loose. she hates it when she's not in control, but the fact is, it was getting late and she HAD to get dressed for school. i'm not getting her to school in a urine-soaked diaper. she went to the bathroom ok but was fooling around and taking forever. when we were at risk of being late, i took charge and wrestled her into her clothing. when she loses it, she doesn't lose it like a 6 year old, she loses it like a 3 year old - kicking, scratching, biting - and i've got bloody scratches on my arm. my husband looks like a cat attacked his head, he's got 3 long bloody scratches too. in her fit, she also tripped over one of her toys and hurt her foot. so she refused to put on her boots (we're in a cold part of canada). she refused to put on her ski pants, hat, mittens.. but she was willing to put on her coat. i grabbed the rest and took her to the car, buckled her in safely, and drove to school with mere minutes to spare.

once we got there she wanted cuddles. i just don't think it was the right thing to do, i was extremely angry and didn't want to reward the bad behaviour.. so i dropped her off, made sure she had her hat, mittens, and boots on properly (ski pants in her backpack for recess). i kept moving her to the other side of the fence where it's safe, and she kept running back to me. eventually she stayed by the fence, i walked away to the sound of her crying and calling me like i was never going to see her again.

it doesn't happen every day, but it happens frequently enough. i don't know how to help her. she needs to gain control of herself.. but that doesn't mean she can make all the choices. when it's school time, it's school time. not her choice. once she gets there she's great, no behaviour problems at school. it's mostly ME she acts this way around, although grandma and daddy get it too.

at bedtime, she wants to stay up all night and read. or she wants me there with her all night. i can't do that. we don't fit in her bed, she can't sleep in my bed at least at the beginning of the night because it disrupts everything for me. i always have cuddles with her, stories, talk about our favourite part of the day, etc. but then she either turns her light back on and reads all night (i've come up and discovered her reading at 10:30 pm!) or she calls me and we do the dance of 1000 excuses why she can't sleep. hungry. thirsty. needs to be tucked in again. needs another hug. needs another toy. whatever.. i try not to give in to that though. i make sure she has fresh water, tucked in, hug and a kiss, and i'm out.

what on earth can i do? when i was a kid, if i even did half of the things she does, i'd get the spanking of my life. i don't want to go down that road but sometimes i feel like my toolbox is empty. i even talked to the staff at the local family centre and they were out of ideas too. someone, please help.. we also have a baby on the way next month, but this behaviour was happening long before that ever came into the equation.

[chattyprincess]

Originally Posted by myk 

i'm mom to a 6 year old girl who i'm having a lot of trouble with. she is generally a great kid, very bright, and well behaved in school and church. her difficulties are mostly in the morning and at bedtime. she turns from an angel into Demon Child. sometimes it's because she's tired or hungry (tired because she stayed up too late in spite of me having her on a regular bedtime, hungry because she refuses breakfast half the time). sometimes i really don't know what's triggering it, like this morning.

she woke up half an hour before the alarm, so i suspect she wasn't overtired. we got her to bed nice and early last night. she asked for breakfast, so i got her the cereal she asked for. when it was time to get dressed, she refused. she still wets at night, so she wears pullups. i asked her to come to the bathroom and take it off, go pee, etc. she refused. several times. she wouldn't tell me why (which might have helped me figure out what to do about it). eventually i lost my patience, walked over, and wrestled her out of her PJs and pullups.

then all hell broke loose. she hates it when she's not in control, but the fact is, it was getting late and she HAD to get dressed for school. i'm not getting her to school in a urine-soaked diaper. she went to the bathroom ok but was fooling around and taking forever. when we were at risk of being late, i took charge and wrestled her into her clothing. when she loses it, she doesn't lose it like a 6 year old, she loses it like a 3 year old - kicking, scratching, biting - and i've got bloody scratches on my arm. my husband looks like a cat attacked his head, he's got 3 long bloody scratches too. in her fit, she also tripped over one of her toys and hurt her foot. so she refused to put on her boots (we're in a cold part of canada). she refused to put on her ski pants, hat, mittens.. but she was willing to put on her coat. i grabbed the rest and took her to the car, buckled her in safely, and drove to school with mere minutes to spare.

once we got there she wanted cuddles. i just don't think it was the right thing to do, i was extremely angry and didn't want to reward the bad behaviour.. so i dropped her off, made sure she had her hat, mittens, and boots on properly (ski pants in her backpack for recess). i kept moving her to the other side of the fence where it's safe, and she kept running back to me. eventually she stayed by the fence, i walked away to the sound of her crying and calling me like i was never going to see her again.

it doesn't happen every day, but it happens frequently enough. i don't know how to help her. she needs to gain control of herself.. but that doesn't mean she can make all the choices. when it's school time, it's school time. not her choice. once she gets there she's great, no behaviour problems at school. it's mostly ME she acts this way around, although grandma and daddy get it too.

at bedtime, she wants to stay up all night and read. or she wants me there with her all night. i can't do that. we don't fit in her bed, she can't sleep in my bed at least at the beginning of the night because it disrupts everything for me. i always have cuddles with her, stories, talk about our favourite part of the day, etc. but then she either turns her light back on and reads all night (i've come up and discovered her reading at 10:30 pm!) or she calls me and we do the dance of 1000 excuses why she can't sleep. hungry. thirsty. needs to be tucked in again. needs another hug. needs another toy. whatever.. i try not to give in to that though. i make sure she has fresh water, tucked in, hug and a kiss, and i'm out.

what on earth can i do? when i was a kid, if i even did half of the things she does, i'd get the spanking of my life. i don't want to go down that road but sometimes i feel like my toolbox is empty. i even talked to the staff at the local family centre and they were out of ideas too. someone, please help.. we also have a baby on the way next month, but this behaviour was happening long before that ever came into the equation.

I have a general rule of gd ap in my house...we don't read the books, never have, we parent in a way that feels right and proper. So forgive me if my response is not by the book or isn't what other ppl do.

I have a 4.5 dd and a 4mth old dd. I can only tell you what I do at night that I find works super well for the late night staller lol.

dd1 has always been the night time child...finally around 3 we worked out a way to get her in her own bed that worked for us and didn't involve cio.  Now that she goes to bed fine and can communicate her needs to me 100% I definetly do a supernanny approach to bed time. We start turning down lights after dinner, no tv on after dinner, quiet activites with no one getting worked up. Bath time, teeth time, lotion, jammies. after jammies go on she has a pee break a drink of water and I make sure those needs are set that way she doesn't have the excuse of needing that later on. We read a story (about 10min or so worth of reading interrupeted by questions so more like 15 min) then I lay with her and she will ask me a few questions I give her some hugs/kisses and tell her I love her and will see her smiley loving self in the am. then I leave. we have 2 storey home so I stay upstairs until she is asleep. If she gets up the first time, (Keep in mind all of this that follows is only if there is not a valid out of bed reason...like vomiting or sick or emergency etc.) I tell her "its time for bed love" I hold her hand nicely, calmly and walk her to her bed tucking her in kiss her head and firmly say "goodnight". The next time up I do not talk to her, just gently take her by the hand and lead her back to bed tuck her in without talking and without eye contact and then leave. I do this step as many times as nessecary. I never get angry/violent or yell. If she throws herself onto the floor and will not walk I gently lift her up and carry her. this is the rule but generally has not escalted except for 2 rare occasions into anything more then 2 times of not talking and being retucked. In your case I would also reccomend 10 min checks. If she is reading I would gently take the book and say "its bed time love, you may read in the morning" kiss, tuck in and leave. If you check again and she is still reading, take the book no talking and tuck her in and leave.calmly lovingly repeat. same with the calling you in.

Im sure some will disagree with me but at 6 this has become a game and a habit. She knows she can get you running at her every whim and so she does. The bedtime routine needs to be reestablished and set into place so that her needs are met and so are yours. She can not be a happy functioning child without good sleep and if she is up too late then she reaches a point of not tierd and physically cannot make herself sleep until her body clock cycles back around. Truly I feel from experience having a new baby is hard and trying to deal with your 1st dd and a new lo at a nutty bedtime will quickly become a 3 ring circus.

Odd question but is there any way you can give anything besides cereal for bfast? Dd1 becomes an unfunctioning mess if given anytype of cold cereal for bfast. I think the carb shock to her system is just too much. She needs fat and protein...We do eggs fried in butter, old fashioned oats with maple syrup, cinnamon, butter and milk, or other hot bfast cereal with butter and milk....really in my experience anything besides cold cereal helps dd tremendosly...even left over dinner...who cares as long as its real food you know?

 For the am I would also make sure that you have a good routine down. Sorry I do NOT think a child should go to school in pjs or a pullup either. My dh would have a fit and so would I.  In my house that is not a logical consequence. With my dd I make sure she helps me decide what to wear, she will pick a top or bottom and I will help find the matching pieces. Then I sit with her or she comes into my room and gets dressed. Or I help her get dressed if she asks. If dd refused I would tell her calmly and firmly down at her eye level " dd you can either get dressed or mommy can do it. there are no other options here."  As soon as the moment hit that dd thought she would be allowed to violate my or my dh body by hitting or scratching her whole entire world would come to a crashing halt. Physical violence is not tolerated in any means in my household and I mean business. She is 6 yrs old and she KNOWS that this is not a tolerated behavior. There are rules against it in her school, church and everywhere else she goes. when the hitting/scratching started I would IMMEDIATLY WITHOUT FAIL take dd by the shoulders and look into her eyes and in my most firm serious non screaming I mean business mommy voice I would say "EXCUSE ME DD? You do NOT scratch/hit Mommy. This is NOT acceptable behavior. You may be angry but you MAY NOT HIT OR SCRATCH ANYONE." period end of story game over. I would then set her down turn and walk away. if she follows you, fine. If she stays there acting crazy fine. But I would not engage her any more at this piont. She is 6 she is still young enough to need mommy and daddy for help with her emotions but she is old enough to know to not hit and you need to make sure beyond a shadow of a doubt that she understands that in your home this is NOT ok.

In our home we will take away tv privelleges if dd does something crazy such as hitting etc. After a minute I would go back into dds room or turn to her if she followed and tell her " DD, you may not hit/scratch mommy, that hurts me and that behavior is unacceptable in our home. If you continue to act this way you will not have any tv for the rest of the day. You may either finish getting yourself dressed or I will help you or get you dressed."

You may have to start getting ready for school earlier, or you may have to be a few minutes late but in my opinion you definetly need to take the time to adress this or it will just stay the same. After she was dressed I would take a minute to hug her kiss her, tell her how much you love her etc. I would also make sure on the days she gets ready herself without a fuss that you praise her and tell her how great it is that she is dressed and how it makes it nice to have time to drive slowly to school and talk etc....

[NYMommy2007]

Originally Posted by myk 
she HAD to get dressed for school. i'm not getting her to school in a urine-soaked diaper.

Have you tried telling her if she doesn't get dressed then she will have to go to school in her pullup?  I understand it's cold but if you wrap her in a blanket, give her her clothes to hold and put her in the car than she will be warm enough.  Either she'll be embarrassed and never want it to happen again or she won't care, either way she made her own decision.  Getting in a battle of wills with a child is often a losing battle for the parent so do what you have to for her to be safe and let her make her own choice.

[NellieKatz]

First thoughts in a busy, multi-tasking day here...

My son (7) also reacts physically and violently when someone forcibly puts hands on him too. Your daughter's reaction did not surprise me. (If it helps, know that this will serve her well in the outside world, safety-wise. seriously! she takes her boundaries seriously)

When you said she got there and wanted to cuddle, I was not surprised. When you said you refused to, I winced. Poor thing; she was probably trying to make things right again, to feel connected. I doubt it would be construed as a reward; she clearly needed closeness.

You say she needs to regain control of her behavior. You might consider the viewpoint that she will gain control if she maintains connection, feels safe and accepted. She was trying to get what she needed. The takeaway message she could nonverbally, nonrationally take away could be "my needs made mama angry, and when mama's angry, she doesn't want to get close to me. I need that closeness. Better not make mama angry. Better stuff my feelings."

You said "when it's school time, it's school time. not her choice." Of course, that makes perfect sense. That lack of choice is hard for her. She needs help navigating it. The "not staying by the fence" thing said that loud and clear to me. Her continually running to you as you left just broke my heart.

All the things she does, including the nighttime stuff, screams "I am trying to get my needs met!!!!" to me. (closeness-to-Mama needs)  My feelings are that when you guys heal and connect, repeatedly and often, she will be stronger through these transitions. The more we (parents in general) pull away and cling to the demands of the schedule, or outside influences, or "discipline" or a thousand other reasons we can't give our kids the irrational (to us) thing they are crying out for, the MORE they will cling, follow us, act out. Urine-soaked diaper? So what. Bed wetting spells stress to me. Her emotional needs come first; behaviors will follow. That is MY belief and it is my experience.

I say this because I've been there. Done that. Sorry if I hurt you with my bluntness, your daughter's situation touched my heart. I have found (from being spoken to in blunt terms by other mothers) that sometimes you get hurt a little, your feathers get ruffled--this happens the MOST when we are being asked to move out of our comfort zone, and when we realize we might have been taking the wrong approach. (Wrong meaning one that doesn't help further our relationship with our kids.)

Let love and connection lead the way. Long after she's grown up, you won't remember the day you were late for school, but you will probably remember the tears and the look on her face as you walked away on that day which prompted this post.

Darn, that sounded harsh. But it's a harsh business sometimes, isn't it.

[myk]

nelliekatz, i respect everything you have to say. i do my best to stay connected, tell her i love her many times a day, and in circumstances other than what i've described, i always give her hugs and cuddles. but not after she is violent or continually getting out of bed after it's time for lights out. i used to give her a few minutes of cuddles after we got to school to help her calm down, but it seemed to work against me. trust me, my instinct is to hold my little girl and help her feel better, but i'm at the point where i believe it wasn't working toward our goal here. and always, always, always, when i pick her up from school i give her hugs and if i talk about it later, it's in a cuddling environment. i know it might not sound like it because of this particular post/issue, but i do believe attachment parenting is the way to go :)

NYmommy - i'm in a part of canada where if she doesn't get her snowsuit on, at this point, by the time we get out of the driveway she's shivering uncontrollably. in better weather, a blanket and jammies might work :) wet pullups in this weather aren't acceptable. i'm ok with her going without ski pants, hat, mittens, or boots.. i let her go without a coat for a few minutes as "natural consequences" of choosing not to wear it, and then she asks for it.. but wetness plus temperatures well below freezing, not an acceptable combination.

chattyprincess, a lot of what you say makes sense in terms of practical advice. when you put her to bed, and she gets up IMMEDIATELY (before you've even gotten to the door) then what? put her back? done that. up again. tuck in. up again. sometimes i manage to get to the door and hold it shut, telling her that it's bed time and i'm not going to keep coming in. i saw supernanny a few times using the "naughty chair" for misbehaviour and putting kids to bed without engaging them.. but how do they manage to get the kids to physically stay in the naughty chair or bed?! do they keep putting them back repeatedly for an hour and just not show that on tv? she'll keep going for 2 hours. she's STUBBORN. i have a stubborn stepsister like her and it serves her well as an adult, but man.. handling a kid like this is hard! 

[myk]

i should add though.. i've moved the bedtime an hour sooner. nights have been better. this morning, still a challenge but at least no violence.

[chattyprincess]

I wanted to say quickly that yes they do do it for hours...at times in the show the will have a time counter going and sometimes it just goes. Children are persistent espcially when they know they have done things a certain way for a certain amount of time...she knows sooner or later mommy will crack and hold the door and talk and then she will get to hollering etc. Alot of people do not follow through with this routine because it is a ton of work and its wearing on your patience. but once its done its done and they stay put, yes they will occasionally come out for the random time but for us after the intial bit it usually only took the first step reminder. remember you are working over 6 years of different habits so it will take just as much time and energy to change the situation as it took to get there.

No sleep has so many negative effects on children that for me its worth the struggle to literally do it for as long as it takes. generally the first night is the hardest for you and them getting used to the new way. The second night is way harder because they know what is coming and they don't like it and by the third night the new routine is becoming established and is starting to settle in and be the norm after a week of persistently doing exactly those steps and with a heart full of love and understanding for your dd (she will need more cuddles the next day to help her with the transitions) then you will be on the road to better bedtimes. Truly it is literally placing them back in bed constantly...and yes that means even if you literally have just taken one step away before it happens again. For me if I would tuck dd and she would kick the sheets off to show her defiance. I would let her, not engage, no eye contact and just walk away because she was searching for that battle and I wasn't going to give it. She doesn't have to be tucked in to fall asleep but after she fell asleep I would go in and kiss her and tuck her in. 

Honestly the best way to deal with these situations in my opinion is with lots of love and understanding in your heart  but with a no nonsense attitude of its bedtime and we are not playing games.Her needs are one thing but sometimes as children thier insight is not the same as yours. They simply do not for the most part understand the bodies deep seated need for constant good sleep. Also this is a complete mommy judgment call. Is she needing some basic instinctual need for attention and love she isn't getting or has this become a power game of control, or just a game period. Only you can make that call because only you know your daughter. If its that she needs more love, then by all means give it to her. If its just become a game and drama (as it was with my dd) then by all means do what you need to do to make that situation right so that your household is getting the sleep it needs.

[myk]

thank you so much.. i spent a whole lot of time with her yesterday making cards, telling her how much i was enjoying it. bedtime was a little rough, and then she was up in the middle of the night again, so this morning was another disaster.. by the time she got to school she was ok though, it was getting dressed that was the huge challenge. i've asked my husband to make her oatmeal every morning because a) she'll eat it and b) it'll help steady her blood sugar for the morning, tide her over until she has her snack. we're REALLY trying.. but not as successful as i'd like. it's a bit of a relief to know that supernanny sometimes does have to keep it up for hours, the show made it look easy (and it's been years since i had a TV signal, so no cable, satellite, etc, so i can't tune in these days and check it out myself). it's like, "i'm not alone in this".

[mamaofprincesses]

Just wanted to add that we've recently started using Hyland's Calm Forte for Kids at night, and it seems to help our kids relax and fall asleep more quickly, which has led to better before-school mornings for our six year old. Especially when you're transitioning/re-establishing bedtime routines, I think something like that can be helpful.