My children have decided they are not smart; thinking of switching schools

[dbsam]

I apologize in advance for the lengthy rambling post…

I over-think everything and as much analysis and energy I’ve put in schooling decisions I’m finding I’ve made some mistakes.  I’m afraid I will jump to move the children and might make another one.

I believe much of what you can accomplish is what you believe you can accomplish.  I also feel their current school/teachers tend to label children as being ‘smart – at the top’, ‘at the bottom’, etc.  I’m afraid their current school situation is sapping their confidence and making them believe, at age 6, that they are not smart.  Part of this is their personality – I was very hard on myself as a child too.

I have twins.  My daughter, since being in any type of schooling situation has felt she wasn’t smart (She is bright but not a typical learner.)   When we put her into Montessori for Kindy her confidence soared and she did well.  My son was confident about his abilities and always did well.  However, since starting their current school, first grade this year, they both think they are not smart and are completely giving up on themselves.   For example…I found a book my son made at school.  On several pages he drew a picture of himself and above the picture wrote “I am dum(b)!!”.  He is always noticing anyone who is doing better than him and feels he is the worst at everything in school.  I am considering pulling them out and putting them back into Montessori or homeschooling.  My husband feels we should leave them in this school and we can get them ‘caught up’ and feeling better about themselves.  But I feel like it is a losing battle.  They are in school 7.5hours/day and have homework nightly.  We don’t have time to fit in more schooling to catch them up and still allow for much needed free play. 

I am responsible for the fact that they are ‘behind’ (I do not think they are behind but based upon the criteria/testing at the school, they are.)   I do not feel it is best to push academics at young ages and allowed my children mostly to have creative fun play while young.   They learned a lot but we did not focus on areas the schools feel are important – reading, timed ‘math facts’, sight words, etc.   (They are reading level 1-2 readers with assistance.  They know all thirty Kindy sight words and ~fifty of the 1st grade sight words.  The are on level 'B'/'C' in Rocketmath.)  They had one year at an environmental preschool and one year of Montessori (Extended Day which is considered Kindy but I now realize is nowhere near as advanced as our public Kindy.)  I considered holding them back into Kindy at the current school but was told by their teachers, the current principal, doctors, that they were ready.    (Their B-day  is  06.24 (born eight weeks early) and we have a 08.01 cutoff.)  Well, they started way behind.  Their charter school expected much more coming into first and is continuously talking about increasing rigor. (I am one of the organizers of the school and this is the first year of operation.  Even being on the board and spending years working on the school, I didn’t expect the school to be quite like this.  It’s a good school…just not what I expected…basically a typical public school but they want to cater to the higher achievers.) My children do not hate school, and like many aspects.  It is as if they’ve simply accepted the fact that they are ‘at the bottom’.  Unfortunately one of their teachers actually said this in front of my children so my son now uses the same phrase.

If I move them into Kindy now it would crush them and validate their feelings.  (The school doesn’t think I should move them.  They are working within the necessary range, just towards the bottom in many areas.)

Maybe I haven’t given this school enough time.  We switched teachers in Nove and have seen improvement.  Maybe they need to get the hang of testing?  If I keep them here, what can I do to help increase their confidence?  It’s like we take one step forward and two back. 

If I move them back to Montessori, they will have the disadvantage of moving mid-year or possibly at the beginning of next year after their Kindy classmates have been in lower EL for a while.  Also, most of the children have had years of Montessori and my children only had one year – they’ve already dealt with that but it is a bit of an issue.  Montessori might not even ‘fix’ this issue but I think it will since there doesn’t seem to be as much comparison of students and they do not have as much testing.  But then my over-thinking brain wonders if the school will not prepare them enough for high school – but that is a whole other thread!!  I really like the Montessori philosophy and I feel children are treated with much more respect and kindness at the Montessori school than at their current school.

It breaks my heart to see my intelligent, previously happy, six year olds feeling so bad about themselves. 

Any advice is appreciated – thanks. 

[sapphire_chan]

A teacher actually TOLD your kids they are at the bottom??? Sounds to me that there's plenty they're teaching at that school that you don't want your kids to learn.

[dbsam]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan 

A teacher actually TOLD your kids they are at the bottom??? Sounds to me that there's plenty they're teaching at that school that you don't want your kids to learn.

She told me in front of the children.  We swtiched teachers - for many reasons.  (As a parent and as a board member I've complained about the first teacher - not about this issue but others.  Unfortunately, the principal thinks I expect too much and says I am the only person who feels the teacher s/b removed from the school.)

[Emmeline II]

The winter break seems like a good time to switch.

After ds experience in K, we knew we did not want him to stay at that school. There was the overall philosophy of the school, and the principle in particular, that we did not like. It seems like you don't like the direction of the new school even if you have a better teacher.

[ollyoxenfree]

From reading your posts, I see 2 issues. The first is the one you've identified - the self-confidence of your dc. The other is your own conflicted feelings about school. Some examples: 

Originally Posted by dbsam 

.... They are in school 7.5hours/day and have homework nightly.  We don’t have time to fit in more schooling to catch them up and still allow for much needed free play. 

......I do not feel it is best to push academics at young ages and allowed my children mostly to have creative fun play while young.   

....... Montessori might not even ‘fix’ this issue but I think it will since there doesn’t seem to be as much comparison of students and they do not have as much testing.  But then my over-thinking brain wonders if the school will not prepare them enough for high school – but that is a whole other thread!!  I really like the Montessori philosophy and I feel children are treated with much more respect and kindness at the Montessori school than at their current school.

If you really believe that delayed academics, (or at least a lack of emphasis on academics and academic performance), are most appropriate for your dc, then I'm not sure why you are concerned about preparing for high school when they are in 1st grade. It sounds like a Montessori philosophy is more congruent with your desire for no homework, no testing, more self-directed learning and less concern on being at the top (or the bottom) of the class etc. This charter school, with an emphasis on academic rigor, performance and comparing students, seems antithetical to your beliefs. There will be plenty of time in upper elementary to prepare for high school. If you think they aren't prepared at that time, there are steps you can take.  

If you keep them in this school, I'd have a frank discussion with the teacher and ask/insist that there be no comparisons between students. Your children should be evaluated in terms of their individual progress, not against other students.  How other children are doing is irrelevant. When your dc receive feedback on a test or an assignment, it should be in terms of whether they have improved since their last evaluation, not on where they stand against the rest of the class.  If the teacher makes any kind of remarks comparing your children to others, I'd immediately respond that you aren't interested in that kind of information at this point. It may become relevant if they seem to be having learning problems and are falling significantly behind. Right now, while they are within the expected range and making progress, it isn't useful or helpful to them. In particular, the teacher shouldn't be making any kind of comparisons in front of the children.  

I'd reassure your dc that they are learning and that you are comfortable with the pace that they learning. If they bring home a test or marked assignment, I'd discuss the questions or material with them, but make a point that you aren't worried about the actual marks. If there are obvious problems with test-taking (not reading questions thoroughly, reading too much into the questions, etc.), it can be helpful to work on them. I would keep the emphasis on the learning, though, not the test results. If you discuss their report cards with them (and you don't have to), I'd focus on the comments about work habits, participation in class etc. rather than the grade results.  

If the school can't or won't remove the stress around performance, then moving them seems to be a good choice. It sounds like this is an academically competitive environment and it isn't a good fit for your family.

[dbsam]

olleyoxenfree...You are correct.  I have always felt delayed academics, less emphasis on testing, etc. were best for my children.  However after experiencing this school I am wondering if my vision for their schooling isn't the best option because of the reality of how/what they are expected to learn.   Eventually, even if it is at high school level, they will be forced into this system. 

Thank you for all the other advice too.  I need to remind myself, and them, they are doing great and that they started at a different point.  e.g.  My niece is in the same class and was already reading Junie B Jones in Kindy compared to my children who's Kindy class focused on more extensive phonics (e.g.  learning the four sounds of 'a' rather than two).  They never did timed math facts or timed anything in Kindy but the other children did.  I'm just worried they will continue beating themselves up and then be unable to catch up. 

Really, there are so many levels to this decision.  I spent time and energy on this charter school and want it to work but am disappointed that the reality isn't closer to my original vision.  Plus our year at Montessori was so great; I intended it to be temporary until the charter opened but ended up learning more about the Montessori methods and really liking the school.  I've been trying to decided whether to give the charter more time and stop comparing to Montessori or go back to Montessori.  Their loss of confidence and the frustration with the first teacher tends to push me out of the door.  But then, my commitment to the school as an organizer and a board member and desire to make it better make me want to stay - but I worry that is not in my children's best interest.

Thanks again.

[pregnant@40]

I'm a public school mom, but this also completely breaks my heart. If my son wrote "I'm dumb" on his paperwork, I would return him to Montessori without a second doubt. I totally support your thinking. It is CRUCIAL that kids develop positive feelings about themselves at a young age, for it sets the tone for life. Your kids should feel like intelligent, powerful, creative, thriving, can-do people at this young age. To see a kid(s) squashed by the system at the start of schooling is really infuriating for all parents.

Montessori won't "fix" it b/c the model is completely different, right? But I can't imagine a child developing the same negative self-concept within a classroom that centers around hands-on & self-directed (though guided) education. It's a great alternative, and hopefully you have one that extends to at least 8th grade in your area?

[dbsam]

Originally Posted by pregnant@40 

I'm a public school mom, but this also completely breaks my heart. If my son wrote "I'm dumb" on his paperwork, I would return him to Montessori without a second doubt. I totally support your thinking. It is CRUCIAL that kids develop positive feelings about themselves at a young age, for it sets the tone for life. Your kids should feel like intelligent, powerful, creative, thriving, can-do people at this young age. To see a kid(s) squashed by the system at the start of schooling is really infuriating for all parents.

Montessori won't "fix" it b/c the model is completely different, right? But I can't imagine a child developing the same negative self-concept within a classroom that centers around hands-on & self-directed (though guided) education. It's a great alternative, and hopefully you have one that extends to at least 8th grade in your area?

Thank you.  I was beginning to think I was placing too much emphasis on how they felt about themselves.  I've been told by the principal my expectations about how children s/b treated are too high.  The teachers and principal tell me they are fine and this is common.  It is not fine with me.  I do not see it improving much - it has a little since we switched teachers. 

Our local Montessori school, which has been in operation for ~30 years, only extends to 6th grade.  But I've been told there is a push from the parents to add seventh and eight grades. 

My children rec'd their progress reports yesterday and almost all marks were 'at grade level' and almost all their behaviors were 'Satisfactory' or 'Excellent'.  A month ago when they rec'd the progress reports from the first teacher, she marked nothing at grade level and none of their behaviors as satisfactory.   I haven't shared their progress reports with them.  The reports seem useless considering there is so much variation in a month. 

[amma_mama]

I am so sad for your children. They need school to be a positive learning experience at this age, not a confidence-busting competition. If I were you, I would not hestitate to change schools immediately. I would not allow my child to remain in an environment that was damaging to their sense of self-worth. It is ashame that things did not turn out as expected with the charter school but it sounds like you know, in your heart, that there is a better place waiting for them at their former school where they can thrive.

[dbsam]

Originally Posted by amma_mama 

I am so sad for your children. They need school to be a positive learning experience at this age, not a confidence-busting competition. If I were you, I would not hestitate to change schools immediately. I would not allow my child to remain in an environment that was damaging to their sense of self-worth. It is ashame that things did not turn out as expected with the charter school but it sounds like you know, in your heart, that there is a better place waiting for them at their former school where they can thrive.

Thanks.

Although I've stressed the negatives, the charter school has a lot of positives too and has the possibility to become great.  My sister's children attend, love it and are thriving - they came from a very competetive Catholic school.  I thought my choices for my children's previous years schooling created the problem and their first teacher exacerbated the problem.  We organized the school for many reasons, one of which was the recognition that the current public schools, which are great, may not be great for everyone.  I'm afraid the charter school just isn't the right fit for my family.
 

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by dbsam 
My children rec'd their progress reports yesterday and almost all marks were 'at grade level' and almost all their behaviors were 'Satisfactory' or 'Excellent'.  A month ago when they rec'd the progress reports from the first teacher, she marked nothing at grade level and none of their behaviors as satisfactory.   I haven't shared their progress reports with them.  The reports seem useless considering there is so much variation in a month. 

As for the "at grade level" thing, maybe what's going on is that there were some skills required for "at grade level" and the teacher had to wait until she observed those things--only they were in the curriculum until the end of the semester. I seem to remember someone here having their kids in a school that had a system like that.

[DariusMom]

Originally Posted by pregnant@40 

I'm a public school mom, but this also completely breaks my heart. If my son wrote "I'm dumb" on his paperwork, I would return him to Montessori without a second doubt. I totally support your thinking. It is CRUCIAL that kids develop positive feelings about themselves at a young age, for it sets the tone for life. Your kids should feel like intelligent, powerful, creative, thriving, can-do people at this young age. To see a kid(s) squashed by the system at the start of schooling is really infuriating for all parents.

Montessori won't "fix" it b/c the model is completely different, right? But I can't imagine a child developing the same negative self-concept within a classroom that centers around hands-on & self-directed (though guided) education. It's a great alternative, and hopefully you have one that extends to at least 8th grade in your area?

Originally Posted by amma_mama 

I am so sad for your children. They need school to be a positive learning experience at this age, not a confidence-busting competition. If I were you, I would not hestitate to change schools immediately. I would not allow my child to remain in an environment that was damaging to their sense of self-worth. It is ashame that things did not turn out as expected with the charter school but it sounds like you know, in your heart, that there is a better place waiting for them at their former school where they can thrive.

All this! My DS was having a very negative experience (socially, not academically) at our local public. We moved him to a Waldorf school and his confidence has skyrocketed. In fact, on the way home from school last week, he said, "Mommy, I never knew I was good at so many things" And, as I said, it wasn't even academics that was the problem at the other school. But he needed to feel confident and that he fit in. The rest has just fallen into place.

Originally Posted by dbsam 

Originally Posted by amma_mama 

I am so sad for your children. They need school to be a positive learning experience at this age, not a confidence-busting competition. If I were you, I would not hestitate to change schools immediately. I would not allow my child to remain in an environment that was damaging to their sense of self-worth. It is ashame that things did not turn out as expected with the charter school but it sounds like you know, in your heart, that there is a better place waiting for them at their former school where they can thrive.

Thanks.

Although I've stressed the negatives, the charter school has a lot of positives too and has the possibility to become great.  My sister's children attend, love it and are thriving - they came from a very competetive Catholic school.  I thought my choices for my children's previous years schooling created the problem and their first teacher exacerbated the problem.  We organized the school for many reasons, one of which was the recognition that the current public schools, which are great, may not be great for everyone.  I'm afraid the charter school just isn't the right fit for my family.
 

You know, I'm gonna' project a lot of our own recent experiences on you and your kids' situation. Just sayin' in advance!

My DS' school was supposedly one of the best in town. There's a two year waiting list to get in. It's become the elite school and everyone wants to go there. And, you know what? All that didn't matter. It simply wasn't the right school for my DS. Nice teachers, some nice parents and kids, but it wasn't a good fit socially at all. When we moved him to the Waldorf school, he just bloomed.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter if your sister's kids loved the school and thrived. Your kids aren't. Believe me, I had a huge issue with moving DS to a new school (especially a Waldorf school, because I thought the were all kooks!). I had invested a lot in his old school -- volunteered a lot, identified as a parent there, loved that it was a neighborhood school, etc. -- and it was *very* hard for me to let the dream and ideals I'd had about the school go. This was particularly difficult when everyone in town seemed so positive about it. I felt, to some extent, that we as a family had somehow failed. But we didn't fail. DS is an amazing, creative, unique, gentle, curious kid. He's thriving in a different environment. It's that simple.

This is tough stuff. Hang in there.

[dbsam]

You know, I'm gonna' project a lot of our own recent experiences on you and your kids' situation. Just sayin' in advance! My DS' school was supposedly one of the best in town. There's a two year waiting list to get in. It's become the elite school and everyone wants to go there. And, you know what? All that didn't matter. It simply wasn't the right school for my DS. Nice teachers, some nice parents and kids, but it wasn't a good fit socially at all. When we moved him to the Waldorf school, he just bloomed. Ultimately, it doesn't matter if your sister's kids loved the school and thrived. Your kids aren't. Believe me, I had a huge issue with moving DS to a new school (especially a Waldorf school, because I thought the were all kooks!). I had invested a lot in his old school -- volunteered a lot, identified as a parent there, loved that it was a neighborhood school, etc. -- and it was *very* hard for me to let the dream and ideals I'd had about the school go. This was particularly difficult when everyone in town seemed so positive about it. I felt, to some extent, that we as a family had somehow failed. But we didn't fail. DS is an amazing, creative, unique, gentle, curious kid. He's thriving in a different environment. It's that simple. This is tough stuff. Hang in there.

This is exactly how I am feeling!!  There are many wonderful families at the charter school and a lot of promise.  I'm half afraid to leave and 'miss out' and also hate to 'bail' on a project I've spent so much energy on.  But ultimately, I do not think the overall feel or philosophy is going in the direction that is best for my children.  Also, I have twins with different learning styles and I'm afraid these differences will become more of a problem in the charter school as they get older but I think Montessori's focus on individual strengths will be best.  (I understand that our Montessori school isn't perfect either.) 

Your description of your son is how I would describe my children.  They are not bold or competitive.  They are creative, sensitive and bright.  Sometimes they think a little outside the box and have been told their thinking is wrong when it really isn't...it's just different.

Regarding Waldorf...I wish we had Waldorf schools in the area.  My brother's children were educated at Waldorf schools and later a Quaker Friend School.  I used to tease him a bout being in a 'Waldorf cult' but over the years I've seen what a great educational experience his daughters have had.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

[mattemma04]

My kids are 8 and 11 and in a Montessori school.My ds got 4 months of primary and is now in 3rd year lower el.My 11yo dd started at 8 in lower el and is now in her 2nd year upper el. They have their ups and downs,but I have never heard them say they were dumb.That would really worry me! I have little doubt my kids might not test well(or do well) if I put them in a public school. I try not to compare because I know they are learning and they are happy. No grades in Montessori and I like it that way.Our M goes up to 8th grade,but I am not sure we can pay that long.Would be nice.

I would switch and switch now over break IF the Montessori has room.Mine took ds,but I had to wait for them to take my dd so I homeschooled her till she got in.She was to miserable to stay in the public school,and I disliked the schhol for other reasons. I know you put a lot into the charter,but as you say it does not seem to be a good fit.Being a new school they are also working very hard to get good ratings.

I hope you find a good fit for your kids. I have tried all types of schooling for mine to get a decent fit for them. I didn't want mine to be sad so I kept looking and they tried new places.

[nanette0269]

My daughter started saying that soon after she started montessori.  They dont praise the kids very much like the prior school did.  They've never said "wow, you are so smart" (that type of praise). So, since she was ALWAYS told this before, the fact that they werent saying this made her feel dumb.  It was simply an adjustment.  Once she realized that its not said to anyone, she began to feel better.  She also has a tendency to compare herself to the kindys in her class, moreso than the kids in her grade.  She's a tiny little step behind most of them, but leaps and bounds ahead of kids her age.  She'll catch up to the kindy class by the end of the year, i think...so i think its all just a short term thing.

[Emmeline II]

Ds has first cousins still at his old school and they are doing fine; it just did not work for him.

[CarrieMF]

 The reports seem useless considering there is so much variation in a month

I disagree.  The reports are not useless it is the opinion of 2 different teachers.  Is the new teacher more positive than the other one?  Can you give this new teacher a chance & see if she can help reinstate your kids self esteem.  Switching schools may cause more harm than good.  They've already switched schools & now teachers in 3 months.   Have you talked to the new teacher about your concerns & what she can do to help them.

I WOULD show your kids this report as it is positive.  From what you said they are right where they should be for Grade 1(doing Grade 1 math, reading at a 1/2 level).

[Drummer's Wife]

I'd probably give it some more time (likely the rest of the school year), and see how it goes with the new teacher. If it still isn't working out, I'd switch from the charter back to Montessori in a heartbeat. If it's like our school, you have to apply in march-April, so just keep that in mind.

I also agree with sharing the progress reports - I don't see what it would hurt, and might boost confidence levels.

[dbsam]

I did share the new progress report since it was more positive.  I agree it is the opinion of two different teachers, I just cannot see how they varied so much.  But my husband just reminded me that my children were very frustrated and nervous in the first teacher's class and that probably caused them to do worse in class.  He also feels since I complained to and about the first teacher, she might have taken it out on the children.  Like pp's suggested, he feels we should give the new teacher more of a chance and consider going back to Montessori next year if there is no improvement.  I agreed to this plan a few weeks ago but after seeing my son's book and hearing both children say they are not smart while practicing reading I reconsidered.

 They've already switched schools & now teachers in 3 months 

 Yes, this is one of my concerns and why I am afraid to jump into a response. 

[pigpokey]

Anecdotal, but being 40 years old, my elementary school was not nearly as "vigorous" as they are today; learning goals per elementary grade were very much more limited and IMO reasonable.  My private school had no standardized testing (public schools probably didn't either) and we spent about 6 weeks every spring doing ... it may literally have been nothing but the yearly musical.  I mean morning to dismissal.  They were very proud of the musical.

Yet I was high school valedictorian & did well at prestigious ugrad & law schools ... I really don't see why having stressed out academically loaded little kids has much to do with ability to handle upper level work.