My children have decided they are not smart; thinking of switching schools - Page 2

[dbsam]

Originally Posted by pigpokey 

Anecdotal, but being 40 years old, my elementary school was not nearly as "vigorous" as they are today; learning goals per elementary grade were very much more limited and IMO reasonable.  My private school had no standardized testing (public schools probably didn't either) and we spent about 6 weeks every spring doing ... it may literally have been nothing but the yearly musical.  I mean morning to dismissal.  They were very proud of the musical.

Yet I was high school valedictorian & did well at prestigious ugrad & law schools ... I really don't see why having stressed out academically loaded little kids has much to do with ability to handle upper level work. 

I'm also in my forties (46) and went to traditional, yet not test crazy or overly competitive, Catholic schools for twelve years.  (and did fine in college and in my career.) I felt my childhood was a good balance of academics, music lessons and free play.  Probably another reason I am so drawn to Montessori - it seems more relaxed and well rounded to me.  But people keep telling me times have changed...I don't know...calculus is calculus! 

[musikat]

I am a Montessori mom here, with one in primary and two in lower elementary. A couple of thoughts... One, as you said Montessori is a different learning environment. I happen to love it, and it sounds like you and your kids did, too! My boys have thrived there and not until recently have I heard any "comparison" talk  and only from my oldest, who has struggled a bit with math. Since there are only 4 other kids in his "grade" he notices when they are ahead of him and thinks he isn't good at math. Ironically I have been wondering if a reverse switch from yours next year would help him gain confidence, since I think they are doing work ahead of public school (he has been doing double digit multiplication and just started long division in 3rd grade). But I also fear the transition and the testing.

There is a big adjustment from montessori to public school can be tough at any age and there will be an adjustment, so part of their feelings might be that. They are not used to testing, timed things, sitting at desks, etc.

I would encourage you to call the Montessori and see if there is room in the lower elementary class. My sons have a couple of kids in their classes with little or no Montessori experience and they are catching up just fine. Your kids at least have the one year, so they will be familiar with the materials, right?

Good luck with your decision. Sounds like something needs to change, especially for your son who feels "dumb." :(

[pregnant@40]

Originally Posted by pigpokey 

Anecdotal, but being 40 years old, my elementary school was not nearly as "vigorous" as they are today; learning goals per elementary grade were very much more limited and IMO reasonable.  My private school had no standardized testing (public schools probably didn't either) and we spent about 6 weeks every spring doing ... it may literally have been nothing but the yearly musical.  I mean morning to dismissal.  They were very proud of the musical.

Yet I was high school valedictorian & did well at prestigious ugrad & law schools ... I really don't see why having stressed out academically loaded little kids has much to do with ability to handle upper level work. 

I agree. How a kid feels about him/herself will have a bigger impact in the long run than being well prepared for standardized tests in early grade school. You were probably successful b/c you believed in yourself & felt generally positive about your relationships w/ peers and family. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[elisheva]

Ok, I'm dying a little (a lot) at the very thought of a *6 year old* feeling DUMB. Why in heck are they in such a stratified academic situation to begin with??? I'm not laying blame, I'm just floored to know that this is out there. 

In your place, I would def look into Montessori and I would start reading some John Taylor Gatto and then maybe some John Holt...

[claras_mom]

Originally Posted by dbsam 

Originally Posted by pigpokey 

Anecdotal, but being 40 years old, my elementary school was not nearly as "vigorous" as they are today; learning goals per elementary grade were very much more limited and IMO reasonable.  My private school had no standardized testing (public schools probably didn't either) and we spent about 6 weeks every spring doing ... it may literally have been nothing but the yearly musical.  I mean morning to dismissal.  They were very proud of the musical.

Yet I was high school valedictorian & did well at prestigious ugrad & law schools ... I really don't see why having stressed out academically loaded little kids has much to do with ability to handle upper level work. 

I'm also in my forties (46) and went to traditional, yet not test crazy or overly competitive, Catholic schools for twelve years.  (and did fine in college and in my career.) I felt my childhood was a good balance of academics, music lessons and free play.  Probably another reason I am so drawn to Montessori - it seems more relaxed and well rounded to me.  But people keep telling me times have changed...I don't know...calculus is calculus! 

I am also 46. School is a whole different ballgame now than it was when we were kids. They do in kindergarten what we (I) did in first grade. Been feeling the adjustment (vicariously) as my girl negotiates her first year of public school (kindergarten).

BUT, what we chose was a public alternative program. Very small, with about 60 kids in 3 multi-age classrooms. I have issues with the administrative end of things (a sometime lack of communication/organization on the part of some of the teachers), but dd1 seems pretty happy. And I really like her teacher.

[claras_mom]

Meant to say something useful as well.

Seems to me that your kids started out "behind" with a teacher who was a really bad fit and who did some damage to their sense of themselves.

In November, a change of teacher has already started to turn things around. That and a couple of months of school. With dd1, at first, it was hard to see progress in what she was doing--unless I compared it to something she'd done earlier. There was also a huge social adjustment at the beginning of the year--from a small Reggio Emilia school to public school (the small alternative school is on the same campus as another, traditional elementary school).

What I would do in your position, assuming that other areas of the school environment were working for my kids (social, etc) is sit down with the new (positive, getting results) teacher and ask for strategies to integrate the things they could work to improve on into daily life. So for example, dd1 is right on the cusp of reading and writing stuff phonetically, but isn't quite confident with it yet. In our conferences, one of the suggestions was to encourage her to write out the grocery shopping list. We'll do that; also thinking about helping her write letters to relatives and friends (something she likes to do, but doesn't yet do herself). For my kid, if it's "real", it seems more important, KWIM? And if it's a positive contribution to family life, it makes her feel really successful.

[Lisa1970]

From my experience (my olders are 14 and 16, my neices are 10 and 14 and I am close to them and they live near, and I used to be a teacher and I have a lot of friends with kids) the early years, the schools push the kids and really stress them out. In the later years, by middle school, they seem to do just about nothing. I have heard it explained that it is all about state testing. They want all the kids far enough along to pass state tests before 3rd grade so then the years after that are largely review. I don't know. Regardless of the reasoning, it never ever helps a child to be pushed and stressed and torn down like that.

[mtiger]

Originally Posted by dbsam 

My children rec'd their progress reports yesterday and almost all marks were 'at grade level' and almost all their behaviors were 'Satisfactory' or 'Excellent'.  A month ago when they rec'd the progress reports from the first teacher, she marked nothing at grade level and none of their behaviors as satisfactory.   I haven't shared their progress reports with them.  The reports seem useless considering there is so much variation in a month. 

SO, even though the reports are positive and negate their feelings, you're not willing to share the results? That just seems.... odd to me. The reports aren't useless - they indicate that there is a difference of opinion between the two teachers, and your kids should NOT be downing themselves or their intelligence. That you don't want them to know the second teacher sees their progress as positive simply reinforces the first teacher's opinion and does not serve your children well. IMO.

And... if you do decide that this charter school doesn't fit with your own educational philosophies, I would urge you to resign from the position you hold therein. You may not agree with their philosophies, but they do work for some kids. And those kids deserve people who embrace what works for them to be sorting the school out.

[dbsam]

Originally Posted by mtiger 

SO, even though the reports are positive and negate their feelings, you're not willing to share the results? That just seems.... odd to me. The reports aren't useless - they indicate that there is a difference of opinion between the two teachers, and your kids should NOT be downing themselves or their intelligence. That you don't want them to know the second teacher sees their progress as positive simply reinforces the first teacher's opinion and does not serve your children well. IMO.

And... if you do decide that this charter school doesn't fit with your own educational philosophies, I would urge you to resign from the position you hold therein. You may not agree with their philosophies, but they do work for some kids. And those kids deserve people who embrace what works for them to be sorting the school out.

I did share the positive report, I didn't share the negative report.

I really should not have posted this thread at all; it was inappropriate - I was really upset and felt I couldn't discuss with people IRL because of my position and figured no one knew me online (except for one person who I trust.).  I am not ready to give up on the entire school, just re-working in my mind the fact that the reality is so different than my expectations and that it might not be want I want for my children.   As I mentioned in an earlier post, I know it is a good school and will be a great fit for many families.  I may decide to resign but after spending years organizing the school, I need to be sure before I resign.  Plus I've been approached by several parents who, like me, thought the school would have a different philosophy; they want me to fight for more of that type of school.  However, I believe the majority or at least the vocal majority of the parents want a different type of school than I, and other board members, envisioned.

Claras_Mom and Lisa 1970..You're posts were helpful, thank you.

Edited by dbsam - 12/8/10 at 2:32pm

[Geofizz]

I've been reading along for a while and wondering -- have you discussed this impression your kids are forming of themselves with the new teacher?  It's important to bring up, and every early elementary ed teacher I've encountered considers the development of positive self esteem to be one of their most important responsibilities.  Talking to the classroom teacher about concerns like this should be done promptly so that corrections of course can be made.

It does sound like the kids came in without the background that kids who did K there had.  That's ok, kids catch up really fast.  However, I do suspect that many perceptive and bright kids pick up on a "I'm not the smart one here" sense as a result of ability grouping.  In first grade, even in a school where all kids did K together, there will be kids working on basic phonology in the first half of first while others are whipping through chapter books.  Ability grouping is a must in that case, and kids put in a lower group for lack of exposure from last year could very quickly form a negative self-image.  Being honest and open with your kids (and having the teacher confirm) that their placement and curriculum is what's right for them at their current state is the best for them, helping their smarts come out when they're ready.  A line I've used on my kid (from her math teacher) is that the goal is to improve on the self you were yesterday, not to compete with the other selves in the room.

[dbsam]

Originally Posted by Geofizz 

I've been reading along for a while and wondering -- have you discussed this impression your kids are forming of themselves with the new teacher?  It's important to bring up, and every early elementary ed teacher I've encountered considers the development of positive self esteem to be one of their most important responsibilities.  Talking to the classroom teacher about concerns like this should be done promptly so that corrections of course can be made.

It does sound like the kids came in without the background that kids who did K there had.  That's ok, kids catch up really fast.  However, I do suspect that many perceptive and bright kids pick up on a "I'm not the smart one here" sense as a result of ability grouping.  In first grade, even in a school where all kids did K together, there will be kids working on basic phonology in the first half of first while others are whipping through chapter books.  Ability grouping is a must in that case, and kids put in a lower group for lack of exposure from last year could very quickly form a negative self-image.  Being honest and open with your kids (and having the teacher confirm) that their placement and curriculum is what's right for them at their current state is the best for them, helping their smarts come out when they're ready.  A line I've used on my kid (from her math teacher) is that the goal is to improve on the self you were yesterday, not to compete with the other selves in the room.

I have talked to both teachers and the principal. 

You've summarized the situation accurately.  Except no one went to this school from kindy, the students have all come from different schools and there are others in similar situations to my children. I have spoken with my children many times explaining the situation.  I like the way you phrased it: "The goal is to improve on the self you were yesterday, not to compete with the other selves in the room."

 "The first teacher was a horrible fit and made the situation worse.  But maybe the schooling philosophy isn't as much of the problem as I think; maybe it is simply my children.  I just cannot imagine why they are beating themselves up so much.  They really are doing fine.  (e.g.  Since I originally posted they've mastered the 75 1st grade sight words and are moving on the 2nd grade words.)  Tonight my daughter cried while reading saying she is the worst reader in class.  She is not one of the best but she is not the worst either.  Yesterday, my son brought home a charcoal drawing - It is of him taking a test with 'I am sad' written on top.  I don't know if helping them means switching schools, giving the new teacher more time, or something else...I just don't know.  It is breaking my heart.
 

[VisionaryMom]

Two possibilities come to mind. One is I think where you're headed with your comment about your daughter. In my son's class, there is 1 girl who is a wonderfully fluent reader. DS & 1 other boy are "tied" - they have public charts with where everyone is on assessments - as the next-to-the-top readers. My son has determined that he is "the slowest reader in all of kindergarten" because he's not first. He's competitive. He begs to study and practice more every night so that he can be the top reader in the class. So perhaps your children are unnecessarily harsh on themselves but not because of anything they see in class. 

The other thing is that this school is for high achievers, which should mean - if it's done right - that a child who is "bright" will be average or at the bottom of ability in this school. So your children may be at the top of their class in terms of ability/achievement in a traditional classroom but be at the bottom here, and that be the right place for them. If they'd determined in Montessori that they worked quickly/well compared to others (because I'm acutely aware that children are perceptive about this issue even when adults think they're not paying attention to it), then it makes sense that they'd feel they weren't measuring up when that's no longer the case.