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Sexual Curiousity: What is Normal for 5-y-old?! - Page 6

post #101 of 154
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fairejour View Post


Except in this situation the child DOES have a history of sexual abuse, so he is already sexualized and at high risk of acting out sexually....which it seems that he is already doing.

 

Whether or not my son was sexually abused remains unclear.  There was physical DAMAGE done to his testicles, but he has never shown any signs of acting out sexually in terms of wanting to do sexual-type acts with himself or others.  He does not engage in self-stimulation (even though that's normal!) and he's never tried to touch other people.  If it was sexual, I would think he would be engaging in sexually arousing acts with himself and/or others.  His whole energy around this has been that it's funny, not sexual.
 

post #102 of 154

I have read, but up until now haven't posted.  I have an only girl, and at that, one that has a keen sense of propriety and respect for boundaries, so has never engaged in play with others involving the genitals (because she;s been told it's improper, but that sexual curiosity, in general is healthy).  I didn't really think I had anything to contribute.  But the last page or so has made me think more about this.

 

The root question for me is that even though he has been told over and over and over again that this kind of "play" is not appropriate, why is he continuing to engage in it?  Sure, it's normal (FTR, I think my dd is also normal having not "played doctor").  But at 5, most kids understand after repeatedly being told to stop a particular behavior, that they need to stop doing it.  THAT seems to be the boundary that he's not able to respect.  And it could cause problems in the future, which is why it could be worrisome.  If he can't respect boundaries (even if he thinks it's funny to not respect them), then...  yeah things could get worse in the future.  It doesn't matter if the play is sexual or not at this age.  It will be one of these days.  Just a thought.


Edited by velochic - 12/10/10 at 1:51pm
post #103 of 154


truedat.gif
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by velochic View Post

I have read, but up until now haven't posted.  I have an only girl, and at that, one that has a keen sense of propriety and respect for boundaries, so has never engaged in play with others involving the genitals (because she;s been told it's improper, but that sexual curiosity, in general is healthy).  I didn't really think I had anything to contribute.  But the last page or so has made me think more about this.

 

The root question for me is that even though he has been told over and over and over again that this kind of "play" is not appropriate, why is he continuing to engage in it?  Sure, it's normal (FTR, I think my dd is also normal having not "played doctor").  But at 5, most kids understand after repeatedly being told to stop a particular behavior, that they need to stop doing it.  THAT seems to be the boundary that he's not able to respect.  And it could cause problems in the future, which is why it could be worrisome.  If he can't respect boundaries (even if he thinks it's funny to not respect them), then...  yeah things could get worse in the future.  It doesn't matter if the play is sexual or not at this age.  It will be one of these days.  Just a thought.

post #104 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by fairejour View Post


It doesn't matter what he thought, it matters what happened to her. It was by force, and against her will and it involved her genitals. Please see this from the victim's perspective.


 

FWIW, I've seen things like that happen at that age, when I was that age. None of the girls (or boys) involved ever manifested any signs of feeling like victims, or any behaviour one would associate with sexual assault. In general, unless adults put that on them, the kids don't tend to see it as anything but another form of rough-housing. I've personally never known (or been) a five year old girl who would see a classmate/playmate pulling down her pants as being much, if any, different from a classmate/playmate pulling her pigtail or untying her shoelace. They wouldn't like any of it...but they also wouldn't feel sexually assaulted.

 

The only way to see this from the victim's perspective is to find out what the victim's perspective actually is.

post #105 of 154
Thread Starter 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by fairejour View Post


It doesn't matter what he thought, it matters what happened to her. It was by force, and against her will and it involved her genitals. Please see this from the victim's perspective.


 

FWIW, I've seen things like that happen at that age, when I was that age. None of the girls (or boys) involved ever manifested any signs of feeling like victims, or any behaviour one would associate with sexual assault. In general, unless adults put that on them, the kids don't tend to see it as anything but another form of rough-housing. I've personally never known (or been) a five year old girl who would see a classmate/playmate pulling down her pants as being much, if any, different from a classmate/playmate pulling her pigtail or untying her shoelace. They wouldn't like any of it...but they also wouldn't feel sexually assaulted.

 

The only way to see this from the victim's perspective is to find out what the victim's perspective actually is.


I agree with what you've said exactly.

 

The only thought I've had that might change this perspective (that five-year-old kids don't take this as a sexual assault, but just another lame thing that kids do to each other) is that if the girl whose pants my son pulled down had been sexually abused in her life already, she might feel differently about it.  But I think most kids wouldn't be that traumatized by it.  It happened to me when I was older (11-12) in middle school, and while I was extremely embarrassed and mad that people saw my butt for a few seconds, I didn't feel sexually assaulted.  I was just pissed.

 

Yes, my son does need to learn to respect boundaries, listen to "No" (from me and others!), and keep his hands to himself, but he's having this same problem in many different areas of his life, and we are working on it.

post #106 of 154

With this thread in mind, I asked my 5 year old today how he would feel if someone at school pulled his pants down - if he would think it was kind of funny, or if he would be really annoyed, or embarrassed.  He said he would be annoyed and embarrassed, especially if people saw his butt.  I asked him if it would be more embarrassing for people to see his butt or his penis, and he wasn't sure.  He asked me which I thought was worse, and I said people usually think the penis is a little more private.  He said, "But poop is more disgusting than pee."  So he's only thinking about the bathroom connection, not about sex at all - even though he has actually heard about sex, and that sex=penis in vagina, which is more than a lot of 5 year olds know.

post #107 of 154

Daffodil, your post made me want to test out the question on my 5 year old. Her response was different than your son's. She said having her pants pulled down would be annoying and embarrassing. I asked why and she answered, she doesn't want anyone to see her vulva. I then asked which would be worse, if other kids saw your vulva, or if they saw your butt and she answered, it would be worse if they saw my vulva because it is more private.

post #108 of 154
I'm finding these last two comments about how other 5 year old view their butt and genitals interesting. My dd is 4.5 and I'd bet she wouldn't care one bit if her butt and/or vulva were suddenly exposed. But maybe if I asked her I'd be surprised by her answer. I agree with velochic that the real issue here isn't sexual, it's behavioral. If he's choosing to not follow direction about what is appropriate behavior, whether it's sharing genitals or screaming at the library or biting or whatever, that's the root of this and that may lead to bigger problems if not corrected. I teach older kids and I get to know them and their families very well in my tiny school. Most of my middle school students I've known since they were 5 or 6. The ones that were not responding to behavior redirection when they were little are often the ones that are big behavior problems as adolescents. So how can you teach your son to respect boundaries, whatever they may be? Well, that I don't know without knowing you and your son (and even if I did, I certainly couldn't claim to know what would fix this issue!). A 5-year-old doesn't usually associate their genitals with sexual pleasure. I think this kind of behavior, in their minds, is more closely connected to bathroom humor and silliness.
post #109 of 154


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ecoteat View Post

I'm finding these last two comments about how other 5 year old view their butt and genitals interesting. My dd is 4.5 and I'd bet she wouldn't care one bit if her butt and/or vulva were suddenly exposed.


I think I was probably leading my DS a bit by suggesting that he might be annoyed or embarrassed if someone pulled his pants down.  My guess about how he would actually feel is that if a kid he liked did it in a good-natured way and acted like it was a funny game, he would be slightly annoyed at most, or maybe just laugh about it, but that if a kid he didn't like did it in a mean-spirited way he would be upset.  I'm not sure he would really be all that embarrassed at having people see his butt - after all, just a few months ago I still often needed to remind him not to start pulling down his pants until he was actually in the bathroom when we were out in public.  Probably his level of embarrassment would depend on how the other kids reacted. 

post #110 of 154

On the one hand, you keep saying "sexual curiosity," but OTOH, you don't want to label what your son is doing as sexual behavior. I think you have to get clear in your mind which you think it is because it can't be "oh, it's normal sexual curiosity, but don't get upset because it's not sexual." You & your friend both believe your own children, which is typical. I don't think it's odd that you think what your son did is normal, and she believes her daughter. TBH, I would not allow my daughter to be around your son, so I don't think your friend is wrong. I'm also afraid that you & your son will lose more friends if this behavior isn't something you can get a handle on, and while you think it's mean, others need to feel comfortable as well. 

 

I don't think the number of incidents and particularly the one story that he made up (if I'm understanding correctly) are within the range of normal. I think that given your son's background at daycare and the other multitude of behavioral problems (as in the long thread in GD), you need to be addressing this pretty harshly at this point. He seems either not to care what you and other tell him or not be able to control himself. You need to find out which and address it.

 

At the very least, you should seek out a second opinion from a therapist. I'm finding it odd that your therapist knows his history and still thinks all of these things are normal, but then therapists are people, too. They have different opinions, and I think a second opinion may give you a very different result.

 

My family has a long, sordid history of sexual misbehavior that's all over the map from promiscuity to rape. My cousin, who's now 34, was like your son as a child. He had a higher-than-average number of "experimental incidents" involving looking at others' genitals. He progressed to essentially stalking/harassing girls in high school to finally being sentenced to jail for rape in his late 20s. All along the way his mother excused and said how he was just "normally curious" and then just had "a crush" on the girls and on and on. Now, I'm not saying that your child is destined down this road, but it's what I've seen from the same sort of response from a mother. Where is the line for you? It hasn't been when he made up a genital-showing story about several other kids. It hasn't been when he pulled down a girls' pants without her knowledge/consent/understanding. It's not when he asked someone to kiss his rectum. It's not when he asked another girl to pull down her pants & he pulled his down in a public place with you sitting there. So, when is it? What would indicate to you that it's finally a problem? For me, those acts individually may not be, but when they're added together, they do indicate that he's not headed down a very good path.

post #111 of 154

Have read your posts OP, but not every response.

 

Honestly this sounds concerning to me.  The sexual story that turned out not to be true (i remember you posting on that) is very concerning.  My brother used to get into frequent games of "you show me, i show you" with other kids, and make up "off" stories that turned out not to be true, and at the same time began to quite seriously sexually abuse me.

 

I don't think the therapist is paying attention, and you need to have a conversation with them about it.  I think your poor boy has a bunch of stuff to deal with, and i don't think he sexually assaulted anyone (at 5, there is no intent, i agree that it was a bit rubbish for the little girl, but i don't think that was his intent) BUT i think he is indeed on a slightly "off" track here and needs help.  Thank you mama, for asking these questions, looking at this situation honestly, and trying to figure out what to do.  You tend to suffer some judgement when you post on these issues, but thousands of parents simply refuse to even consider anything could even possibly be amiss and THAT is when people really get hurt.  I feel bad that the little girl got her pants pulled down - i too would either keep my distance or watch like a hawk if that happened to my DD with a friend's kid - but i think you're great for examining it so honestly.  It's pretty brutal to have to look at your baby and understand that they may be capable, at some point, of hurting people in this way if you don't address it.  :hugs

post #112 of 154

So, I guess that I'm curious what those of you who think the OP is not taking this seriously enough would have her do at this point. It has been a lot to wade through, but from what I understand, she has:

 

- involved her son's therapist

- talked to her son about proper behaviour and boundaries

- said she will supervise him closely with children going forward

 

 I see the suggestion to get the opinion of a second therapist, but beyond that, the advice doesn't seem very constructive. What else should she be doing that she isn't?

post #113 of 154

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Owen'nZoe View Post

 What else should she be doing that she isn't?



I think much of what I hear from the OP's comment is an under-reaction to me. This part of her original post in particular struck me that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bisou View Post
as we were leaving, my son said, "Mom, I am sorry, but I pulled down my pants and asked Alex to pull down her pants in the play structure."  I told him that that was not ok, but I said thank you for telling me, and then emphasized that this behavior was not something he should be doing and could upset other kids' parents.  He kept saying he was sorry. 

 

My friend called me late that night and left a voicemail saying her daughter said the same thing my son had told me, and said, "I don't know what we are going to do about this, because this is not ok with me."  She did say that my son asked her daughter to "touch his butt hole," but when I asked my son about this, he said he only asked her to touch his bottom on the side.  I texted back the next morning and said it wasn't ok with me either, but that I think this is normal curiosity for kids, and that we should talk to them about it.  I also called and left two voicemails saying I was happy to talk about the incident if she would like.

 

 

I don't think that, given his history, that's 'normal curiosity.' Even if she's talked to him about bodies being private, he's not listening. It's time to step up what she's saying. At this point, if he were my child, he would be in trouble for continuing this behavior. He would have been in significant trouble for making up the whole story about the bathroom incident with the 4-5 other kids because he lied, and I *believed* him and went to the principal saying his teacher wasn't watching the kids closely. Holy cow! I would have been livid if that were my child! That's not acceptable behavior. 

 

If it were my child, we would not be going to the play area for a long while, and he'd probably lose some privileges. I would tell him that it was because he clearly had not listened to the talking on bodies and that he'd violated my trust. He's not mature enough to be permitted to play without me at arm's length, and that's what would happen. Maybe the OP is planning to do that, but what I see is her saying that it's normal and okay and that she's talked to him about it (again) when that hasn't worked. He has no reason to change because there's nothing to persuade him to, and I think that this behavior demands of the parent that there are consequences, natural or not, that accompany our behavior. While internal motivation is lovely, he doesn't have it yet.
 

post #114 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owen'nZoe View Post

So, I guess that I'm curious what those of you who think the OP is not taking this seriously enough would have her do at this point. It has been a lot to wade through, but from what I understand, she has:

 

- involved her son's therapist

- talked to her son about proper behaviour and boundaries

- said she will supervise him closely with children going forward

 

 I see the suggestion to get the opinion of a second therapist, but beyond that, the advice doesn't seem very constructive. What else should she be doing that she isn't?


Good question. IMO, since it sounds like more an issue with behavioral boundaries and not so much about sexuality, I wonder if there are any consequences when explicit instructions are ignored. What those consequences might be would of course depend on any family's parenting style, but it sounds to me like nothing happens as a result of him choosing to repeat behaviors he has been told to stop. (Unless I forgot some details of this long thread, which is possible.)

 

I was thinking about this thread tonight when dd and I got together with friends for dinner at their house. The kids were being silly and playing and stripped. (The 4.5 year old kids did, anyway, which was dd and my friends' ds.) They played naked for a long time, which included enthusiastic "NAKED HUGS!" and much wrestling and physical contact. They asked the older kids (age 7 and 11) if they wanted to get naked too, having no idea that there is such a thing as modesty when at home or in a close friends' home. The big kids said no and that was that. At no point did any person seem to think for a moment that there was anything remotely sexual about any of it. (Well, we adults did stifle our giggles when they were hugging and the boy knocked dd over accidentally and ended up laying on top of her for a moment.) In most situations, I don't think it's fair to extend our adult views of the roles of certain body parts to our young children who are still innocent and naive. Usually they have no idea and it should stay that way--which goes back to the OP wanting to be clear about what is appropriate without using shame.

post #115 of 154
Thread Starter 

Quote:

Originally Posted by ecoteat View Post
 A 5-year-old doesn't usually associate their genitals with sexual pleasure. I think this kind of behavior, in their minds, is more closely connected to bathroom humor and silliness.


Yep, I agree.

post #116 of 154
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VisionaryMom View Post

On the one hand, you keep saying "sexual curiosity," but OTOH, you don't want to label what your son is doing as sexual behavior. I think you have to get clear in your mind which you think it is because it can't be "oh, it's normal sexual curiosity, but don't get upset because it's not sexual." You & your friend both believe your own children, which is typical. I don't think it's odd that you think what your son did is normal, and she believes her daughter. TBH, I would not allow my daughter to be around your son, so I don't think your friend is wrong. I'm also afraid that you & your son will lose more friends if this behavior isn't something you can get a handle on, and while you think it's mean, others need to feel comfortable as well. 

 

I don't think the number of incidents and particularly the one story that he made up (if I'm understanding correctly) are within the range of normal. I think that given your son's background at daycare and the other multitude of behavioral problems (as in the long thread in GD), you need to be addressing this pretty harshly at this point. He seems either not to care what you and other tell him or not be able to control himself. You need to find out which and address it.

 

At the very least, you should seek out a second opinion from a therapist. I'm finding it odd that your therapist knows his history and still thinks all of these things are normal, but then therapists are people, too. They have different opinions, and I think a second opinion may give you a very different result.

 

My family has a long, sordid history of sexual misbehavior that's all over the map from promiscuity to rape. My cousin, who's now 34, was like your son as a child. He had a higher-than-average number of "experimental incidents" involving looking at others' genitals. He progressed to essentially stalking/harassing girls in high school to finally being sentenced to jail for rape in his late 20s. All along the way his mother excused and said how he was just "normally curious" and then just had "a crush" on the girls and on and on. Now, I'm not saying that your child is destined down this road, but it's what I've seen from the same sort of response from a mother. Where is the line for you? It hasn't been when he made up a genital-showing story about several other kids. It hasn't been when he pulled down a girls' pants without her knowledge/consent/understanding. It's not when he asked someone to kiss his rectum. It's not when he asked another girl to pull down her pants & he pulled his down in a public place with you sitting there. So, when is it? What would indicate to you that it's finally a problem? For me, those acts individually may not be, but when they're added together, they do indicate that he's not headed down a very good path.

 

Whoa!  Lots of misunderstandings or misreadings here.

 

1) I didn't think it was mean that my friend didn't want her daughter around my son, which isn't what she has decided anyway.  (We've just decided not to have them play where we can't see them.)  I was upset that she told me about this, then did not answer any calls or voicemails for several days and canceled her plans to attend my birthday party, which was adults only and didn't involve kids.  I just didn't think that was a very mature response to not even want to talk about anything and hear what each child said in detail.  I wanted to hear her daughter's story and also explain what my son said and talk about how she wanted to handle this.

 

2) What do you suggest I do about him making up a story?  You said that "didn't cross the line" for me, but honestly, while I don't want him to lie and this is probably the first time he's told a significant lie, I don't know what's so bad about him saying other kids pulled down their pants when neither my son nor any other kids were involved and NOTHING HAPPENED.  Yes, he was dishonest, possibly to get attention, but nothing happened.  He just fabricated a story.  Not sure exactly what I should do to give him consequences for that.

 

3) He did not ask someone to kiss his anus!  I am not sure where you are getting that.  He asked my friend's daughter to "touch his butt," but not his anus.  I am 100% sure of that.  There have been other kids at school (boys) asking each other to "kiss my butt," jokingly, to be gross, and clothed.

 

4) It's not just his therapist who thinks this is relatively normal.  I've also talked to other elementary teachers and therapists (my son's teacher, another teacher I know, and a friend who's a therapist) and they say this happens a lot at this age.  My son is very open and honest about what's been going on.  I wonder how many kids are involved in this but their parents just don't know?

 

5) I also wonder exactly what you think I should do?  I've told him he shouldn't be doing this.  What does "addressing this pretty harshly" look like exactly?  Yelling? Screaming?  We've stopped going to places where he could do this behavior.  The only thing I can't control is what happens at school, and it sounds like the other kids are doing this as well.  Just the other day he said two boys pulled their pants down at school again, but my son was not involved this time.  He just saw them doing it.  Honestly, sometimes I wish I could just homeschool him where I could keep an eye on him 24/7, but since I am a single mom, that's not an option for us.

 


 

post #117 of 154
Thread Starter 

Quote:

Originally Posted by VisionaryMom View Post

I don't think that, given his history, that's 'normal curiosity.' Even if she's talked to him about bodies being private, he's not listening. It's time to step up what she's saying. At this point, if he were my child, he would be in trouble for continuing this behavior. He would have been in significant trouble for making up the whole story about the bathroom incident with the 4-5 other kids because he lied, and I *believed* him and went to the principal saying his teacher wasn't watching the kids closely. Holy cow! I would have been livid if that were my child! That's not acceptable behavior. 

 

If it were my child, we would not be going to the play area for a long while, and he'd probably lose some privileges. I would tell him that it was because he clearly had not listened to the talking on bodies and that he'd violated my trust. He's not mature enough to be permitted to play without me at arm's length, and that's what would happen. Maybe the OP is planning to do that, but what I see is her saying that it's normal and okay and that she's talked to him about it (again) when that hasn't worked. He has no reason to change because there's nothing to persuade him to, and I think that this behavior demands of the parent that there are consequences, natural or not, that accompany our behavior. While internal motivation is lovely, he doesn't have it yet.
 


So what would you do about your child lying and embarrassing you in front of the principal?  At this age, I don't think kids understand long term consequences like "You will be grounded from TV for a week because you lied."  What exactly are you suggesting?

 

AND, I am not even sure what was exactly true and what wasn't in that situation.  When he told me about what happened, I told him I was going to have to talk to the principal about it.  He said that he didn't want to get any of his friends in trouble, and that he was just going to say it didn't happen.  He was very concerned about "telling" on the other kids.  Now, this could either mean that he lied and didn't want me telling anyone, or that he actually told the truth, but didn't want the other kids (which included his best buddies in kindergarten) getting in trouble.  I am not exactly sure what really happened.  He has never really lied to me or anyone else before; this behavior was out of character for him.

 

We AREN'T going back to the play area any time in the near future because of this.

 

The quote you included from my original post simply explained what happened at the time.  Had he told me about the sexual play while we were still there, I would have told him we needed to go home; however, he didn't tell me this until we were already leaving.

 

I think blowing up at my son and having some huge reaction would only make him keep this to himself and be ashamed.  I am proud of him for being brave enough to tell me what's going on and for being honest.  If I had some "harsh" reaction, as you suggested, (whatever that means . . . . screaming, yelling, severe grounding?) he might very well continue this behavior and just not tell me about it.  I'd much rather know what is going on!

 

VisionaryMom, I don't know why this has to degenerate into a criticism of my parenting and how I am not reacting appropriately.  I would never criticize someone else's parenting in that way.  There is nothing helpful about those kinds of comments.

 

post #118 of 154

 


Quote:

 

3) He did not ask someone to kiss his anus!  I am not sure where you are getting that.  He asked my friend's daughter to "touch his butt," but not his anus.  I am 100% sure of that.  


 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bisou View Post

 

 She did say that my son asked her daughter to "touch his butt hole," but when I asked my son about this, he said he only asked her to touch his bottom on the side. 



Do you not believe the little girl?  Or did I miss an update where she retracted her allegation?  (very possible as I'm not 100% up to date on both of your threads). 


Edited by D_McG - 12/14/10 at 4:16am
post #119 of 154

First of all, OP I am so sorry that happened to your son, it must have been horrible for him and for you .

I read all of the posts and here are my thoughts.  Since he has been in therapy, I guess some of it at least was meant for talking about the incident that happened to him?  I'm wondering if since he has talked about it and has heard others talk about it a lot (I'm assuming the above is true), maybe he is just more aware of any feelings like this he has and it causes him to make a little more of it than just having passing thoughts about it.  I hope that makes sense.

For some reason, like some PP have said, I did get kind of a red flag after reading this, especially given his history.  Is it possible that he is talking to you about it because he is upset and even afraid of his feelings and is trying to make a joke out of it but wants some reassurance that these feelings are normal? Maybe he is afraid that something bad might happen to him because of what previously hurt him.

It's a shame that you can't try a different therapist, health insurance rules make me so angry!

 

post #120 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bisou View Post

 

VisionaryMom, I don't know why this has to degenerate into a criticism of my parenting and how I am not reacting appropriately.  I would never criticize someone else's parenting in that way.  There is nothing helpful about those kinds of comments.

 



I can't speak for VisionaryMom but I agreed with what she wrote.  The things you post about your son are extremely disturbing (I am combining threads in my mind here).  I realize you have him in therapy but I don't know if maybe you're not being honest with them? Or they are just not that good at their jobs?  I am struggling to see why they haven't recommend some serious psychiatric interventions here.    Or if maybe they just feel that this really is a function of the dynamic in the home (I do not think this).  

 

Sometimes I wonder if the trauma he suffered as a child isn't a kind of red herring.  I think you feel guilt over it to a point where maybe it's making you lose some objectivity (and of course, it's hard to be truly objective about our own children).  Even reading back your posts it seems like from birth your son has had issues.  I wonder if it's not time to take the daycare issues completely out of the equation, get a referral to a good child psychiatrist and be honest about every single thing that's going on.  The hours and hours of rages.  The violence.  The sexual things.  Everything.

 

Also, can I ask what kind of therapist he is seeing?  Have you had him evaluated by a psychiatrist? 


Edited by D_McG - 12/14/10 at 9:03am
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