Sexual Curiousity: What is Normal for 5-y-old?! - Page 7

[pupsnelda]

You said it perfectly, thanks for that!! Exactly my thoughts.

 

Originally Posted by D_McG 

Originally Posted by Bisou 

VisionaryMom, I don't know why this has to degenerate into a criticism of my parenting and how I am not reacting appropriately.  I would never criticize someone else's parenting in that way.  There is nothing helpful about those kinds of comments.

I can't speak for VisionaryMom but I agreed with what she wrote.  The things you post about your son are extremely disturbing (I am combining threads in my mind here).  I realize you have him in therapy but I don't know if maybe you're not being honest with them? Or they are just not that good at their jobs?  I am struggling to see why they haven't recommend some serious psychiatric interventions here.    Or if maybe they just feel that this really is a function of the dynamic in the home (I do not think this).  

Sometimes I wonder if the trauma he suffered as a child isn't a kind of red herring.  I think you feel guilt over it to a point where maybe it's making you lose some objectivity (and of course, it's hard to be truly objective about our own children).  Even reading back your posts it seems like from birth your son has had issues.  I wonder if it's not time to take the daycare issues completely out of the equation, get a referral to a good child psychiatrist and be honest about every single thing that's going on.  The hours and hours of rages.  The violence.  The sexual things.  Everything.

Also, can I ask what kind of therapist he is seeing?  Have you had him evaluated by a psychiatrist? 

[pupsnelda]

Regarding the bolded: When I read the posts about your child - and I think that I read all of them - I think that you described worriesome behaviour BEFORE the daycare and break-in issues. What happened is horrible, I do not want to minimize that, but IMO your son had problems BEFORE that.

Quote: Sometimes I wonder if the trauma he suffered as a child isn't a kind of red herring.  I think you feel guilt over it to a point where maybe it's making you lose some objectivity (and of course, it's hard to be truly objective about our own children).  Even reading back your posts it seems like from birth your son has had issues.  I wonder if it's not time to take the daycare issues completely out of the equation, get a referral to a good child psychiatrist and be honest about every single thing that's going on.  The hours and hours of rages.  The violence.  The sexual things.  Everything.

[_ktg_]

Dear OP: I have read through all the posts & replies on this thread.  I am sorry for what your son endured at his daycare, but in regards to your question - I have 2 boys a 4.5 y.o & ~ 2 y.o. and I can honestly say - if I got a nickel for everytime I hear - "touch my butt","touch my butthole", "kiss my butthole", "look at my penis!", "look at <DS2>'s penis!" etc.  I would be a very rich lady at this point in my life.

I have heard his friends & him discuss in whispers they are going to pull down their pants and IMO - your son sounds an awful lot like my boys and we just work on what is appropriate behavior everyday.  For example I will say just because it's funny to him, the other person might not like it/find it funny, or might make them feel yucky. 

Good luck and I hope things can work out between you & your friend, her daughter.

[fairejour]

No matter if each of these incidents would be "normal" in another situation, I read your other thread and I think it is VERY clear that your son has very serious impulse control issues. He is either unable, or unwilling to control his actions. That needs dealt with.

[Bisou]

No, I don't believe her for several reasons.

1) I have seen this girl flat out lie to her mom on many occasions.  These have been instances that had nothing to do with my son but with other people, like an interaction between her daughter and my friend's roommate where my friend's daughter completely lied about what happened, and I witnessed the entire thing.

2) After we talked more extensively, it came out that my friend's daughter had extensive problems with sexual looking and touching HERSELF with multiple kids at school, multiple times, over a two year period!  They had to end up involving the principal, school counselors, parents, and a bunch of people and still couldn't get it to stop.  It was a huge problem.  Obviously this girl has had some issues of her own.  Because of this, it seems like she had ample motive to blame this on my son and make her sound like this was all his idea.  She has already been in trouble for this kind of behavior MANY times, more times than my son has been in trouble, and in a more extensive manner.  Also, she is 7, and he is 5.  That's a big age difference at this age!

3) When I asked my son specifically about this (asking her to touch his "bottom hole" --- he didn't even know the word "butt hole," which is what my friend's daughter said he said!) he whipped his head around towards me with a completely shocked look on his face and said "EWWWWW!"  He didn't laugh or smile, which is what he would've done if he was even slightly guilty.  He was totally taken aback.

I believe my son's version of the story, that he pulled his pants down and asked her to do the same, and that that was the extent of it.
 

Originally Posted by D_McG 

Quote:

3) He did not ask someone to kiss his anus!  I am not sure where you are getting that.  He asked my friend's daughter to "touch his butt," but not his anus.  I am 100% sure of that.  

Originally Posted by Bisou 

 She did say that my son asked her daughter to "touch his butt hole," but when I asked my son about this, he said he only asked her to touch his bottom on the side. 

Do you not believe the little girl?  Or did I miss an update where she retracted her allegation?  (very possible as I'm not 100% up to date on both of your threads). 

[Bisou]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fairejour 

No matter if each of these incidents would be "normal" in another situation, I read your other thread and I think it is VERY clear that your son has very serious impulse control issues. He is either unable, or unwilling to control his actions. That needs dealt with.

I don't know exactly what everyone thinks I should do.  My son's team of professionals now includes:

1 child psychologist

1 child psychiatrist

1 counselor specializing in EMDR (a trauma therapy)

1 behavioral pediatrician

1 occupational therapist

1 pediatrician

1 acupuncturist

I am not sure what else people think I should be doing, and it's disappointing that this always seems to take the "your kid is having problems; attack the mother" tone.  I didn't think that was the point of MDC.  I thought this was supposed to be a supportive environment.  I think saying "This doesn't seem like what my kids are doing" or "I don't think this is normal behavior because of a, b, c" is one thing, but to insinuate that I am not doing anything to help my son or to try to deal with his problems is ridiculous, unfair, and unkind.

I have continued to consult people because my son has continued to have problems, and I am treating this in a multitude of ways.  Just because he continues to have behavior problems doesn't mean I am not doing anything about it!  You are very lucky if you have a child that responds immediately to "You must not do that," or to time outs, or to grounding, or whatever methods you use.  My son hasn't responded to any of these methods, and they have all been tried MANY times.

Dealing with what I have been dealing with with my son for the past couple of years has been DEVASTATING.  I am doing this alone, working nearly two full time jobs and being a full time parent.  It requires super human energy, patience, and strength.  I haven't had a single date (or hugs or kisses or sex!) in SIX YEARS because every moment is devoted to my son and to work, but mainly to trying to help my son and find solutions for him, yet people who don't even know me (not all of you, but some) continue to insinuate that I am not doing enough, or not doing the right thing, or that somehow I am just doing things all wrong.

Seriously, please think about what you are saying before posting.  Just because my son is having problems doesn't mean I am not handling it correctly.  I am spending hundreds of dollars a month on just co-payments for therapies for him, always looking for something new.  SERIOUSLY, what else am I supposed to do?  I think I am doing all that I can and the best that I can, and having to come here and face criticism when I am looking for support is not helpful.  This is my child and my life.  It's not a debate about the latest political topic or something else that's not personal.  I am a real person with real feelings.  I know it can be hard to forget that at times online, but there is still a real person connected to the other end of this. 

[Bisou]

Originally Posted by _ktg_ 

Dear OP: I have read through all the posts & replies on this thread.  I am sorry for what your son endured at his daycare, but in regards to your question - I have 2 boys a 4.5 y.o & ~ 2 y.o. and I can honestly say - if I got a nickel for everytime I hear - "touch my butt","touch my butthole", "kiss my butthole", "look at my penis!", "look at <DS2>'s penis!" etc.  I would be a very rich lady at this point in my life.

I have heard his friends & him discuss in whispers they are going to pull down their pants and IMO - your son sounds an awful lot like my boys and we just work on what is appropriate behavior everyday.  For example I will say just because it's funny to him, the other person might not like it/find it funny, or might make them feel yucky. 

Good luck and I hope things can work out between you & your friend, her daughter.

Thanks KTG.  The feeling that I am getting is that for some kids, this behavior is very normal, and for other kids, not so much.  Honestly, after reading what everyone has to say, I think my son's behavior is normal when compared to other kids his age.  Am I going to keep a close eye on it?  Yep.  Am I going to continue to tell him not to do this?  Yep.

We just got about five books tonight from Amazon about private areas, respecting your body and other people's bodies, and a sort of "sex ed" book for young kids that shows a couple of drawings of boys and girls naked and discusses body parts.  He thought that was completely hilarious, but I let him look at it and ask me questions, and I am hoping this will help dispel some of his curiosity. 

I did also talk to the child psychiatrist about this today, and even knowing his history of abuse, she ALSO did NOT find it concerning. 

[Bisou]

Originally Posted by pupsnelda 

Regarding the bolded: When I read the posts about your child - and I think that I read all of them - I think that you described worriesome behaviour BEFORE the daycare and break-in issues. What happened is horrible, I do not want to minimize that, but IMO your son had problems BEFORE that.

Quote: Sometimes I wonder if the trauma he suffered as a child isn't a kind of red herring.  I think you feel guilt over it to a point where maybe it's making you lose some objectivity (and of course, it's hard to be truly objective about our own children).  Even reading back your posts it seems like from birth your son has had issues.  I wonder if it's not time to take the daycare issues completely out of the equation, get a referral to a good child psychiatrist and be honest about every single thing that's going on.  The hours and hours of rages.  The violence.  The sexual things.  Everything.

My son's issues from a young age have now all been attributed to sensory processing disorder.  He has sensory seeking behavior and also difficulty identifying where his body is in space and being able to gauge how hard/soft he is doing things.  This has all been noted through testing and therapy by his occupational therapist.  When I look back on his earlier years (before 2), that explains all of what he was doing.  I have only recently learned about SPD and didn't know even what it was when I wrote my original posting on my other thread.  I interpreted his behavior as angry and aggressive because it seemed like he was trying to hurt me, but now I know that wasn't it at all.  He would try to slam his body into mine, throwing himself backwards, and he'd often crash his head into my face.  It made no sense at the time because it wasn't in relation to any kind of discipline or "no"; it would just be random, and I couldn't understand why a 12-18 month old would try to hurt me!  But now that I've read about SPD and learning about it from his therapists, it's clear that his actions were SPD and nothing else.

I do want to say that I HAVE been "honest about every single thing that's going on."  I have told his psychologist, his occupational therapist, his pediatrician, a counselor who specializes in children and trauma, and now a child psychiatrist.  They know about ALL aspects of everything he's ever done.  They all are saying that this is a result of serious trauma.  I don't think that what happened to him can be taken out of the equation.  I think it's what caused the rage and anger he's had.  He's constantly been shown that the world is an unsafe place, over and over and over.
 

[Bisou]

Quote:

Originally Posted by D_McG 

I realize you have him in therapy but I don't know if maybe you're not being honest with them?

I have been completely and totally honest about EVERYTHING my son has ever said or done.  What would be the point of attending therapy and wasting my limited funds if I was going to do otherwise?  That makes no sense.  The therapists my son has seen know everything about everything!

[DariusMom]

Originally Posted by D_McG 

Originally Posted by Bisou 

VisionaryMom, I don't know why this has to degenerate into a criticism of my parenting and how I am not reacting appropriately.  I would never criticize someone else's parenting in that way.  There is nothing helpful about those kinds of comments.

I can't speak for VisionaryMom but I agreed with what she wrote.  The things you post about your son are extremely disturbing (I am combining threads in my mind here).  I realize you have him in therapy but I don't know if maybe you're not being honest with them? Or they are just not that good at their jobs?  I am struggling to see why they haven't recommend some serious psychiatric interventions here.    Or if maybe they just feel that this really is a function of the dynamic in the home (I do not think this).  

Sometimes I wonder if the trauma he suffered as a child isn't a kind of red herring.  I think you feel guilt over it to a point where maybe it's making you lose some objectivity (and of course, it's hard to be truly objective about our own children).  Even reading back your posts it seems like from birth your son has had issues.  I wonder if it's not time to take the daycare issues completely out of the equation, get a referral to a good child psychiatrist and be honest about every single thing that's going on.  The hours and hours of rages.  The violence.  The sexual things.  Everything.

Also, can I ask what kind of therapist he is seeing?  Have you had him evaluated by a psychiatrist? 

I agree

Originally Posted by Bisou 

Quote:

Originally Posted by fairejour 

No matter if each of these incidents would be "normal" in another situation, I read your other thread and I think it is VERY clear that your son has very serious impulse control issues. He is either unable, or unwilling to control his actions. That needs dealt with.

I don't know exactly what everyone thinks I should do.  My son's team of professionals now includes:

1 child psychologist

1 child psychiatrist

1 counselor specializing in EMDR (a trauma therapy)

1 behavioral pediatrician

1 occupational therapist

1 pediatrician

1 acupuncturist

I am not sure what else people think I should be doing, and it's disappointing that this always seems to take the "your kid is having problems; attack the mother" tone.  I didn't think that was the point of MDC.  I thought this was supposed to be a supportive environment.  I think saying "This doesn't seem like what my kids are doing" or "I don't think this is normal behavior because of a, b, c" is one thing, but to insinuate that I am not doing anything to help my son or to try to deal with his problems is ridiculous, unfair, and unkind.

I have continued to consult people because my son has continued to have problems, and I am treating this in a multitude of ways.  Just because he continues to have behavior problems doesn't mean I am not doing anything about it!  You are very lucky if you have a child that responds immediately to "You must not do that," or to time outs, or to grounding, or whatever methods you use.  My son hasn't responded to any of these methods, and they have all been tried MANY times.

Dealing with what I have been dealing with with my son for the past couple of years has been DEVASTATING.  I am doing this alone, working nearly two full time jobs and being a full time parent.  It requires super human energy, patience, and strength.  I haven't had a single date (or hugs or kisses or sex!) in SIX YEARS because every moment is devoted to my son and to work, but mainly to trying to help my son and find solutions for him, yet people who don't even know me (not all of you, but some) continue to insinuate that I am not doing enough, or not doing the right thing, or that somehow I am just doing things all wrong.

Seriously, please think about what you are saying before posting.  Just because my son is having problems doesn't mean I am not handling it correctly.  I am spending hundreds of dollars a month on just co-payments for therapies for him, always looking for something new.  SERIOUSLY, what else am I supposed to do?  I think I am doing all that I can and the best that I can, and having to come here and face criticism when I am looking for support is not helpful.  This is my child and my life.  It's not a debate about the latest political topic or something else that's not personal.  I am a real person with real feelings.  I know it can be hard to forget that at times online, but there is still a real person connected to the other end of this. 

I'm very sorry you're feeling attacked and I have the utmost respect for all your efforts to get help for your son. It must be exhausting, especially on your own.

I could be remembering incorrectly, but I thought that your DS' father suffered from serious mental illness. If there is a family history, would exploring medication at this point be appropriate? I'm definitely extremely cautious about prescribing drugs to kids! And I, like you, would want to explore as many options or combination of options as possible to deal with the problem before turning to medication. But I've seen in my own family how taking the very idea of drugs for mental health/behavioral issues off the table has led to years of problems that could have been avoided had my sister not been so intent on *not* using medication. Therefore, I wonder if it's not just making your life and your DS' much more difficult to not at least explore some medical options. What does your psychiatrist say?

[Bisou]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DariusMom 

I'm very sorry you're feeling attacked and I have the utmost respect for all your efforts to get help for your son. It must be exhausting, especially on your own.I could be remembering incorrectly, but I thought that your DS' father suffered from serious mental illness. If there is a family history, would exploring medication at this point be appropriate? I'm definitely extremely cautious about prescribing drugs to kids! And I, like you, would want to explore as many options or combination of options as possible to deal with the problem before turning to medication. But I've seen in my own family how taking the very idea of drugs for mental health/behavioral issues off the table has led to years of problems that could have been avoided had my sister not been so intent on *not* using medication. Therefore, I wonder if it's not just making your life and your DS' much more difficult to not at least explore some medical options. What does your psychiatrist say?

It's been hard not to feel attacked when some (definitely not all) people have suggested that I don't care about what's going on, that I am not being honest with my son's therapists, that I don't care about my friend's feelings, that my son is "sexually assaulting" people, that I am not trying to get my son help, and various other things.

We saw a psychiatrist for the first time today.  He had some serious stuff happening a month ago, and their most "urgent/emergency" appointment was one month away.  Not so helpful.

The psychiatrist thinks my son is suffering from PTSD and that the amount of trauma he's faced in his young life has caused him extreme fear and rage because he doesn't know how to handle what's happened in his life.  She also thinks his sensory processing disorder further complicates things.  She did not think the sexual behavior was abnormal, but like my therapist, said I should avoid situations where he can get involved in these behaviors, which I had already determined on my own.

She has recommended a medication called Clonidine, which is a blood pressure lowering medication.  I have been extremely hesitant to try medication because he's five and all of these medications can have serious side effects.  She said this one is very benign, but when you see that you're giving your child a medication that can have even a chance of heart failure, to me that's scary.  It's probably less scary than some of the other meds they use for these kinds of problems, but scary nonetheless. 

When you Google "Clonidine and children" you come up with quotes like this from a doctor in Australia on an ABC site:  "We’ve seen 24 children who’ve been admitted to hospital with severe side effects of Clonidine… Half of them have ended up in intensive care needing help with ventilation, a tube to help them breathe and also help with their blood pressure and their low pulse rate.  Our finding with Clonidine is that the size of the overdose didn’t determine how sick the child was. Some children who didn’t have very big doses actually got extremely sick and ended up in intensive care whereas there was one child who had a very large overdose and didn’t need to go to intensive care…"

This kind of stuff scares the crap out of me. 
 

[Bisou]

I should also be clear that these are not people my son has seen in the past.  These are the people my son is CURRENTLY seeing, all at the same time!!!!

1 child psychologist

1 child psychiatrist

1 counselor specializing in EMDR (a trauma therapy)

1 behavioral pediatrician

1 occupational therapist

1 pediatrician

1 acupuncturist

The EMDR is something we are just starting, and I have great hopes for that.

[weliveintheforest]

When it comes to the sexual curiosity you were originally posting about, your son sounds pretty typical to me.  I think you are handling everything properly.  I remember similar activities from my own childhood (show me yours, I'll show you mine type stuff), my dh has told me similar stories of his childhood, and my 5 year old nephews have played in similar ways.  

Of course it is good to be aware, especially with your son's history, but I honestly don't think you could be doing any more than what you already are.  If someone in my life was going through this I would want to know they were talking with the school, his ped, and getting him therapy... and you are doing all those things.   

Just my opinion.  I have a five year old but we have not faced this stuff yet.

[D_McG]

I am so happy to hear that you finally got to see a psychiatrist and are beginning drug therapy.  I hope this helps your little boy.

ETA:  rereading now it's not clear if you're actually going to try it?  

[Owen'nZoe]

Bisou, I just wanted to offer hugs - some of the responses on this thread have been brutal. I've not had to deal with anything like you are dealing with, but I give you all the credit in the world for everything you have tried and are continuing to try.

[~cassie]

Honestly I still feel like it is beyond the range of normal for a child.  And while being honest, I feel like you are trying to explain it all away.  You never mentioned his other issues in your OP, you are just now mentioning he was diagnosed as SPD.  Some of this information is critical to mention so that we fully understand your child, yet you left it out until just now.  I truly hope he is able to get some form of help and that this doesn't escalate into anything more.  I would give the meds a shot, they can do wonders and you just don't know how your child will react until he takes them.  IMO, after all avenues have been tried, I think it is a good idea to try meds, some people need them to function and that is ok.  I do have a nephew on meds for bipolar disorder and it also has some serious side effects(none experiences luckily) but the difference it makes in that child is amazing.  Hopefully your child will respond well to it.

[Daffodil]

Originally Posted by ~cassie 

You never mentioned his other issues in your OP, you are just now mentioning he was diagnosed as SPD.  Some of this information is critical to mention so that we fully understand your child, yet you left it out until just now. 

Fully understanding this particular child isn't really important for people to answer the question the OP actually asked, which was NOT "Does my kid need help?" or "Did I handle these situations correctly?" or "What should I be doing differently as a parent?"

This is what she posted:

Originally Posted by Bisou 

So my son has been having some issues with sexual curiosity, and I am not sure exactly if this is normal or not.  I'd like to hear from other parents of kids 4-6 or so, particularly parents with 4-6 yo boys, about what their kids have done at this age.

[fairejour]

*This post is more about the entire situation with your son, than this thread in particular.*

I don't think people are attacking you, but your responses concern some of us. You seem desperate to dismiss his actions and classify them as "normal". Perhaps with another child some of these things could be typical, but at this point, with your child's history and other issues, nothing would be "normal".

PTSD could explain some of his behavior, but you said that he was atypically violent BEFORE the abuse. I know that no one WANTS to medicate their child, but you should visit Special Needs Parenting and talk to some of the Mommas there who have children with mental illness. Perhaps you could find some support and advice about the totality of your son's issues.

One last note, can you imagine how unhappy it would feel to be inside him? If these are the behaviors he is manifesting, he must just be miserable inside. I know that you really don't want to medicate him, but I myself use medication, as does most of my family. My mother in particular is completely unable to function without her medication, for bipolar. Are there side effects, yeah, but the good far out weighs the bad. To finally be able to experience peace, and have a calm mind is amazing. Someone who has never experienced the chaos of living with a mental illness can never understand what it feels like to finally be ok.

[pupsnelda]

Originally Posted by Owen'nZoe 

Bisou, I just wanted to offer hugs - some of the responses on this thread have been brutal. I've not had to deal with anything like you are dealing with, but I give you all the credit in the world for everything you have tried and are continuing to try.

Brutal? I disagree. Some of the responses have been concerned and actually those posters who have read the whole background are worried about the child. In this case you just have to have the complete history, it changes the perspective totally. 

And I agree with you, the OP has tried very hard and for a very long time. But her refusal to accept the possibility of a mental health issue of her son which needs meds doesn't seem reasonable. There has been suffering for YEARS. Her son has suffered, she has suffered. She has tried many, many different approaches, natural ways, but as fas as I can see it, none has been really effective, slightly effective sometimes, sure. But IMO not enough.

[Owen'nZoe]

Look, I've gone back and read prior posts about her son. I get that she is dealing with a lot of issues with her son. But I stand by what I said -  the tone of some of the responses has been less than kind. And I understand that a lot of you have been following her story for quite some time and may seem frustrated that they haven't been solved, but really, for those of us who don't know Bisou and her son in person and haven't seen what she is going through and trying day to day, we've seen just the tusk or the tail of the proverbial elephant by reading her posts. To say definitively that her son needs meds or judge that she is or isn't taking the actions she needs to based on what little we've seen of her life is kind of absurd.
 

Originally Posted by Owen'nZoe 

Bisou, I just wanted to offer hugs - some of the responses on this thread have been brutal. I've not had to deal with anything like you are dealing with, but I give you all the credit in the world for everything you have tried and are continuing to try.

Brutal? I disagree. Some of the responses have been concerned and actually those posters who have read the whole background are worried about the child. In this case you just have to have the complete history, it changes the perspective totally. 

And I agree with you, the OP has tried very hard and for a very long time. But her refusal to accept the possibility of a mental health issue of her son which needs meds doesn't seem reasonable. There has been suffering for YEARS. Her son has suffered, she has suffered. She has tried many, many different approaches, natural ways, but as fas as I can see it, none has been really effective, slightly effective sometimes, sure. But IMO not enough.