whining it out vs. crying it out

[superlove]

hey ladies,

do you think whining it out is just as bad as CIO?  My DS does some moaning/whining in his crib, and i'm trying to slowly get him used to falling asleep in the crib on his own... but he does this moaning/whining ... I usually let him go for a few minutes or until it turns into a more distressing sound... 

What do you think?

[nola79]

Well, is it more like a tired whine? I don't think it's the same thing if that's what it is. You said you pick him up when it turns into a more distressing sound, right?

[katelove]

If it's just sort of talking to themselves then no but if they're making the sound because they're distressed then yes, I do think it's the same as CIO.

[superlove]

well, to answer some of the questions above, it's definitely not just talking, it's kind of a sad moan, but definitely not a cry.  It's not a happy sound, but as tzs said, he often does whine/moan while trying to fall asleep even when i'm wearing him, not always, but I feel like maybe he does just need to get it out.  Also,  when I go in to console him, it usually stops his moaning/whining, but it also gets him excited, sometimes he'll start smiling and want to play.

I definitely go in and comfort him if it starts to sound like more of a cry or more of an urgent whine.

I read the askmoxie link and it was so interesting, never heard of tension releaser verses increaser... but if I had to guess, i would say DS is a releaser because sometimes rocking, nursing...etc... will just not get him to sleep, even if he's tired. Actually, sometimes if he's tired and irritated, the nursing will get him even more irritated, and he'll start biting and pulling and writhing.

I will try moxie's 10 minute suggestion and see what happens (if i can take the 10 mintues), because usually I go in and comfort him before he could actually get to the point of releasing.  

I did read an article on the mothering website about how letting your baby cry in your arms is very healthy (if you've ruled out something, hunger, wet diaper etc...) and if you always try to stop the crying you may be suppressing an energetic release that they need.  http://mothering.com/parenting/crying-for-comfort

would love to hear more opinions or from people that have tension releasers and have successfully whined it out :-)

[ann_of_loxley]

Babies are different....  some will cry at any little thing right away.  Some will just 'whine' a bit - where it takes them a lot for them to cry.  I have one of each.  DS1 will cry right away.  DS2 is more of a whinger.  It will take something pretty serious (like the cat biting him!) for him to cry out right away. 

However - both are forms of communication and both of my children - no matter how they communicated with me - are worthy of unconditional love and respect.  I respond immediately to both.  I would not ignore either. 

However - I also don't use cribs or try and make my baby or my child sleep when I want them to or do it on their own.  So this has never been an issue for us :)

[tzs]

yep...it took me being stuck in the bathroom when dd was a couple months old to realize this about crying-to-sleep. it was only about 5 minutes but it was the first good "real" nap she had taken ever. it took that to get me to really hear the difference in her cries.

[Shanesmom]

I think the two are totally different, and as the mommy you know the difference. Act according to your instincts.

[aphel]

Taken with a grain of salt, from a new mama who is still figuring out this AP stuff -

My DD almost always needs to make some noise before she falls asleep, whether I'm wearing her, nursing her, whatever. When she's nursing, sometimes she kind of "sings" into my boob, and it gets all muffled by my breast and I have to fight laughing because it just sounds so durned funny.

So yes, I definitely think that some babies just need to make some noise in order to fall asleep. As long as he isn't truly distressed, and really just "whining" or singing,  I think that what your DS is doing is neat. He's found a way to soothe himself without being upset!

[lach]

Originally Posted by Shanesmom 

I think the two are totally different, and as the mommy you know the difference. Act according to your instincts.

I agree.  It's hard to respond to this question on the internet, because different people have different impressions of what "whining" is.  This is something that I think you need to follow your instincts.

My DD had a hilarious sleep routine as a baby where she would cry three times and then fall straight to sleep.  Of course, it took 4 months for me to figure that out, because I'd run to her at the first cry.  And then she'd get REALLY upset.  It took my mother to say "why don't you see where this goes?" and I bit my tongue just to PROVE to her how she would just cry and I would be an awful mother, and then DD went "Wah!  Wah!  Wah!  Zzzzz."  They were very short little cries too, only a second or two each.  Kind of like cartoon cries.  And she'd flip her head back and forth with each cry, too.  She just needed to do it, I guess as release.

It was really hard for me to get used to the idea (and I wasn't on this board yet, but I was on another board being all OMG IS THIS CIO I'M RUINING MY BABY BY LETTING HER CRY), but it really was following her lead.  Disturbing her from this little ritual just made her really, really upset and made her refuse to go to sleep.

[wombatclay]

~~~~~~~~~~~~Moderator Moment~~~~~~~~~~~~

Heyla wonderful people!  This is just a quick reminder that the MDC User Agreement states:

Mothering.com is the website of natural family living and advocates natural solutions to parenting challenges. We host discussion of nighttime parenting, loving discipline, gentle weaning, natural birth, homebirth, successful breastfeeding, alternative and complementary home remedies, informed consent and many other topics from a natural point of view. We are not interested, however, in hosting discussions on the merits of crying it out, harsh sleep training, physical punishment, formula feeding, elective cesarean section, routine infant medical circumcision, or mandatory vaccinations.

I realize that no one in this thread is advocating CIO, but there is a distinction between "controlled crying" techniques (where you look at a clock instead of your babe) and "crying-in-arms" techniques (such as those advocated by Althea Solter via the Mothering website).  Every family and every child is unique, and what works for one family or child may not work for another... but while posting on MDC please do keep the user agreement guidelines in mind and err on the side of gentle and responsive sleep techniques, avoiding techniques that involve controlled crying, extinction crying, or artificially impossed time limits.

Please PM a moderator with any questions or concerns!  Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.  :)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[chaoticzenmom]

My daughter was one of those "whine it out" babies.  She needed that to get to sleep.  She couldn't co-sleep and would get very frustrated when I tried to sleep with her.  I'd put her in her crib, she'd lay there and whine/moan quieter and quieter until she slept. She clearly wasn't happy to be alone and in her bed, but she couldn't stand being in our bed either, so it was what needed to happen for her to sleep.  It took awhile for me to get used to that just being her way of getting to sleep. 

From your description, it sounds like you're doing it fine. I wouldn't consider that to be CIO.

[SeattleRain]

I think what really bothers me about CIO is the idea that you can leave your child crying in their bed and shut the door. That seems insensitive and unkind, particularly if you don't have a video monitor. Imagine that your child could have a real problem and you're just shutting the door. This is why I often sit in the dark in the glider next to Daniel's crib while he's falling asleep if he's whining. If the moaning settles to quiet, I leave. If the moaning doesn't wind down in a minute or two or even just seems to escalate, I pick him back up and rock him some more until he can fall asleep. Perhaps you could try patting him on the back if you don't want to pick him up because it will wind him up more.

AP is about following the lead of your baby in doing the right thing for them. Instead of forcing the baby to comply with you, it's about being sensitive with their needs without totally forgetting that you have needs too. It's not about (for example) co sleeping with your baby if your baby hates it, or forcing your baby into a carrier when they're happier in a stroller, or following some other arbitrary rules. AP is supposed to be natural and instinctual. If your instincts are telling you that your baby needs to vocalize to settle down, I think that's AP. If you're letting your baby cry in the crib and shutting the door because you're *hoping* she'll settle down eventually, that's CIO.

[hakeber]

I think my dd can sometimes let out a whine in her sleep as she shifts between light and deep sleep stages and sometimes I wait a few wimpers to see if she is really awake or just shifting in her sleep before I go over to her and soothe her because I have found that I sometimes make it worse, rile her up, or make it even harder for her to sleep.

But I never sleep through it or ignore it (As I am sure none of the moms here do) I just wait tentatively until I am sure it is an "I am awake and I want to make sure you are all still there" whine and not a "jeez, why can't I get comfortable tonight? eh eh, ahhhhh" sort of whine.  Because if it is the latter and I speak up with a Shhhh, mommy's here, she often perks up "What?  Mommy? Awesome?  Let's play peekaboo!" and that just doesn't work for our family at this time.

But I nurse her sleep, rock her sleep and so does DH.  Having her fall asleep on her own just isn't something she is ready to do just yet.

[Choaners]

This is an interesting thread because I just realized that my 5 wk old is learning to vocalize and some of these noises are "variation in whines".  yesterday i ran into the living room when i heard whining and there she was, in her swing, wide eyed and smiling.  then i watched her for a little bit and she would just let out a cry or a whine as if testing her vocals.  last night, same thing, she was asleep in her crib, eyes closed, relaxed face and a few whines.  if i had not seen her earlier in her swing, i would have picked her up, but i just waited and she quieted and continued to sleep.  now, there are definitely times where i can see in her face that she's sad or upset; her eyelids get a little red and she is frowning.  i'm impressed by how expressive her face has become, but her ability to use her voice is still limited to a few sounds.  anyway, i'm using her face now, more than her noises to guide me.

[SilverFish]

we have a whiner here too. i vacillate between going back in and comforting her immediately and leaving her for a few minutes to sort it out on her own (like yesterday, when i was battling strep throat and barely holding it together as it was). but honestly, she does sometimes need to fuss a bit before sleeping, especially that afternoon nap. reading that askmoxie article a few months ago was a great eye-opener for me though, because it really did help me hear the difference between different kinds of fussing sounds she made. i disagree that all sounds babies make are explicit communication that we as mothers are meant to understand and respond to. right now my dd is playing on the floor making all sorts of incredible noises but if i look over, none of those noises are directed at me... she's either discussing politics with her stuffed mousie, or trying out some new consonants.

anyway, for now, i will continue to let her fuss for a bit if it seems like she needs to. i hate that she sounds so stressed out before sleeping, but when i've nursed a billion times, rocked and bounced for ages, swaddled, dimmed the lights, and everything i do just seems to wind her up more, i feel like i need to step back from the situation and see if she can do it without me. you may not want to take my advice because i'm also one of those moms that thinks you should be taking a shower and eating a proper lunch no matter how much your baby disagrees with you... striking a balance between crappy lazy mom and martyr is hard!

[superlove]

of course if a baby really needs to be nursed very frequently and mom has tried other things and nothing else seems to work, then that is in the best interest for both baby and mommy.  But I think my issue with taking AP too far, is that it seems to be like a religion and some people can become so dogmatic about it and judgmental.  The whole point of AP is to do what's best for the baby, and give them the best environment for a loving and healthy upbringing.  

Like TZS was saying, for a while, my DS hated to be worn and like the stroller much better, could fall asleep in the stroller and was and still is sometimes more content in the stroller.  Also, we were cosleeping in the beginning, but he was constantly wanting to suck on my boob and was half awake all night.  Now in the crib, he sleeps a solid 10 hours in a row sometimes, and then he comes into our bed when he wakes around 4 am, so we partially cosleep.  So I think the point is that taking yourself and AP too seriously can leave you feeling guilty and following some guidline that isn't necessarily what's best for your baby or family.  

BTW, I definitely consider myself to be very much a proponent of AP, it's just sometimes i think people can go overboard and loose a healthy balance and perspective.

[sapphire_chan]

Re: the mid nap whine. For us, that's a sign she needs to pee. Even today (27.5 months) I can take her to pee and put her back down asleep and she'll sleep an hour longer than if she pees in bed.

[sapphire_chan]

On keeping the baby close vs. babies needing separation, I think a baby who is kept close can communicate a need for separation far more easily than a separated baby can communicate a need for closeness. So I think it's best to start out with babywearing and cosleeping and nursing at the tiniest peep and then spread out as the baby indicates.

[ivymae]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan 

On keeping the baby close vs. babies needing separation, I think a baby who is kept close can communicate a need for separation far more easily than a separated baby can communicate a need for closeness. So I think it's best to start out with babywearing and cosleeping and nursing at the tiniest peep and then spread out as the baby indicates.

This is very wise. I need a button "A baby who is kept close can communicate a need for separation far more easily than a separated baby can communicate a need for closeness". Love it. 

[lrgs]

Superlove........I totally agree with you. To me attachment parenting is simply responding appropriately and respectfully to your childs needs and cues in order to foster a secure attachment (which is linked with many positive things). So, as long as you are responding to your child warmly and meeting their needs then that's all that has to happen (IMO). I don't know how everything else became a "must" if you want to consider yourself AP  (I don't think I belong to any sort of label anyway) and I certainly don't see the need for judgement (although I do agree with you........it's abundant). I also thought I'd be co-sleeping, my DD won't sleep beside me unless my boob is in her mouth......this doesn't work for me or her........neither of us was getting any sleep. We still aren't sleeping a whole lot with her in her crib but we are getting a lot more then we were..........it's what works for us and what is best for her.........so that's me meeting her needs. We get in a lot of morning cuddles when she comes in to nurse/snuggle/doze with me. We are still fostering a secure attachment and the reality is that most kids end up securely attached to their caregivers. I agree with you that there has to be balance and it has to work for both parties.