so sad for that little guy....

[rachieface]

I just found out that some friends of mine had their two day old baby circumcised.  :( :( :(  This was after I shared EXTENSIVELY with this little boy's mom about circ, reasons not to circ, etc.  She was very open to the discussion, asked for opinions on whether they should circ or not, and is an incredibly intelligent person.  I really thought I had gotten through to her. 

I am hurting for that little baby and upset at his parents.  I found out they circ'ed him because his father put it on a FACEBOOK status.  I gave them sooo many reasons not to circ, soooo many studies, and even the list of "50 reasons to leave it alone" on this forum.  They are not stupid people.  They try to make well-research decisions.  And yet they needlessly did this to their baby boy.  They have no religious reasons to circ either.  WHY?

Anyway, I really need to vent and many of my real life friends either believe in circ or don't care and are tired of hearing me talk about it.  Thanks for listening.  I am so sad that these parents made an informed (?????) decision to cut up their child. 

[Smidge]

You did the right thing by informing them, but that's all you can do sadly.

[rachieface]

Originally Posted by Smidge 

You did the right thing by informing them, but that's all you can do sadly.

Thanks so much for the reply.  I know this, but am just flabbergasted that they could actually know what the research says, and then choose to circ anyway....... I have many friends that have circ'ed their kids, but they have done so relatively ignorantly (not ok, but more understandable to me). 

[Smidge]

Originally Posted by rachieface 

Originally Posted by Smidge 

You did the right thing by informing them, but that's all you can do sadly.

Thanks so much for the reply.  I know this, but am just flabbergasted that they could actually know what the research says, and then choose to circ anyway....... I have many friends that have circ'ed their kids, but they have done so relatively ignorantly (not ok, but more understandable to me). 

I could have written this word for word about my friend and forward facing her 17lb, 14 mo old.  She had seen all the videos, read the articles, bought a Blvd so she could be rfing longer, etc etc.  But, she ffs her, to which I kindly said was against the law in this state.  Some ppl think they know everything and don't want to hear information from others, even if it will benefit their child.  My friend is very stubborn and I'm sure that factored in too.

[TyrantOfTheWeek]

I feel pretty much horrible for everyone I know that has a boy. But, you did all you could do.

[DJay]

I feel for you. I've been there and done that. Shared with people who go ahead and circumcise anyway.  It is disappointing. But you also have some success stories. And I rejoice with those.

[drs0410]

Have you asked why they decided to do it? My only guess is that they wanted him to be "normal".

[PuppyFluffer]

As difficult as it is to wrap your head around the act of circumcision, you have to acknowledge that parents who circumcise love their children.  There is so much ignorance (in general) and so much social conditioning (perhaps in this specific case) and so much pressure from the medical community in some areas (which may also be the situation in this specific case).

Each of us who is knowledgeable on the truth of circumcision needs to remember that we cannot convince everyone we speak to but that our efforts at education need to continue.  It's frustrating and deeply painful to have it happen to a baby you know and love when you have done your best to educate.  I just had it happen to me for the first time in real life.  It's really disturbed me on so many levels.  Anone who does advocacy has to toughen their skin and they have to have good support when the skin fails and the sadness hits.  I think it hits us all at some point.

That an educated person can still go forth and circumcise their child is such a showing of the depth of the cultural conditioning.  I hesitate to call it brainwashing but I am lacking another word.  It's fear.  Fear of the unfamiliar, fear of pressure from family and friends, fear of acknowledging the wounding of the father if he's circumcised.  It's a huge ugly truth to admit and on some level one has to recognize it and admit it.  Some people just can't do that.  But maybe some day they will and that is why we have to have some hope for them - at what ever level of involvement you an have with them. That they cannot admit this truth does not mean that they don't love their child though.  That's why this is so hard to reconcile. 

I understand your pain.

[Aka mommy]

Originally Posted by PuppyFluffer 

As difficult as it is to wrap your head around the act of circumcision, you have to acknowledge that parents who circumcise love their children.  There is so much ignorance (in general) and so much social conditioning (perhaps in this specific case) and so much pressure from the medical community in some areas (which may also be the situation in this specific case).

Each of us who is knowledgeable on the truth of circumcision needs to remember that we cannot convince everyone we speak to but that our efforts at education need to continue.  It's frustrating and deeply painful to have it happen to a baby you know and love when you have done your best to educate.  I just had it happen to me for the first time in real life.  It's really disturbed me on so many levels.  Anone who does advocacy has to toughen their skin and they have to have good support when the skin fails and the sadness hits.  I think it hits us all at some point.

That an educated person can still go forth and circumcise their child is such a showing of the depth of the cultural conditioning.  I hesitate to call it brainwashing but I am lacking another word.  It's fear.  Fear of the unfamiliar, fear of pressure from family and friends, fear of acknowledging the wounding of the father if he's circumcised.  It's a huge ugly truth to admit and on some level one has to recognize it and admit it.  Some people just can't do that.  But maybe some day they will and that is why we have to have some hope for them - at what ever level of involvement you an have with them. That they cannot admit this truth does not mean that they don't love their child though.  That's why this is so hard to reconcile. 

I understand your pain.

 This is very true. It's something we've recently come to understand ourselves.

Though I hope people know that your words are not always spoken in vain. 7 years ago when we first become parents had we been given a boy, we would have cirumcized. We knew no better. Then many people shared with us, especially people here. And now we have a happily intact 6 month old boy. So while words and sharing and education may not get to everyone, they do get around and my boy thanks each adn every one on this forum willing to share!

DH has a coworker who did not want his son circ'ed but his wife was adamant and he caved. I was disappointed as dh had shared all the research and info I could man him with. Now at 3 months his son is having major issues and the peds are recommending another surgery to fix it and to manual retract it! DH got lit on fire and shared as much as he could with his coworker to help him have proof and info on not ever retracting and not redoing the surgery. It may stick, it may not. But ultimately dh and I did what we could, shared info on a cause that we fully believe in. After that it is in their hands, and if they choose to ignore it. . . it doesn't mean they love their son any less.

[PuppyFluffer]

Aka mommy,

That is a sad story about your co-worker's son.  You did what you could but now that he is having complications, perhaps the mother will reevaluate.  (Perhaps she thought a circumcised penis would be easier to care for and is now learning differently. The education plants a seed.  How it grows is not really up to those who do the planting to determine.

I think we really have to find ways to care for our own emotional health when dealing with this issue.  The pain can get to you and the burnout can hit.  Finding ways to emotionally let it go are important.  Meditation helps me.  Send love and peace and healing to them.  The hardest one for me to do this with is the medical community.  It's seriously difficult for me!  I have had a few negative experiences within the medical system that have left a lifelong distrust with me and it's hard to bless them, wish them well, visualize them in love and light.  But it's important to do for myself.  It takes strength to forgive and strength to hope.  I have found that my intactivist friends really get it on this issue and are awesome support when I am feeling down.

[Aka mommy]

Originally Posted by PuppyFluffer 

Aka mommy,

That is a sad story about your co-worker's son.  You did what you could but now that he is having complications, perhaps the mother will reevaluate.  (Perhaps she thought a circumcised penis would be easier to care for and is now learning differently. The education plants a seed.  How it grows is not really up to those who do the planting to determine.

I think we really have to find ways to care for our own emotional health when dealing with this issue.  The pain can get to you and the burnout can hit.  Finding ways to emotionally let it go are important.  Meditation helps me.  Send love and peace and healing to them.  The hardest one for me to do this with is the medical community.  It's seriously difficult for me!  I have had a few negative experiences within the medical system that have left a lifelong distrust with me and it's hard to bless them, wish them well, visualize them in love and light.  But it's important to do for myself.  It takes strength to forgive and strength to hope.  I have found that my intactivist friends really get it on this issue and are awesome support when I am feeling down.

PuppyFluffer, yes to all of the bolded! I am a 'newbie' intactivist and a very quiet one at that. So the only way that I can compare it to is medical intervention and hospitals. I had very traumatic experiences with my oldest dd with birth and later a issue that left her with a life long consequence. I use to get into it with EVERY doctor and would leave heated and very mad. No matter what i'd say they would talk down to me and i'd refute with info and research. I was being an advocate for myself and my child. Finally with a pregnancy i realized that continueing to engage them was making myself worse off and them feel as if they had room to fight it and be right. Then when ds was transfered after birth, I would listen to what they would say and then respond with "I appreciate the info you have given me and respect your medical findings, but i decline". If they would push, i would smile and say "No thank you, and i wont be changing my mind". Ironically this worked 100 times better than the 7 years i had spent hitting my head against the medical wall.

I just mean to say, that i had to find a way to respond and be an advocate but STILL make sure and take care of my own emotional health, because it is very draining otherwise. This is something i hope to continue with circ. issues as it is all new to me and very easy to get fired up about and bang my head against the wall. Carry on!

 

[buckeyedoc]

My best friend had her baby circumcised even after knowing my intact boys and seemingly being open-minded about intactness in our circumcision discussions. During pregnancy, she suddenly became "uncertain" about it. I suspect it was a "leave it up to the circumcised dad" situation.

[rachieface]

Originally Posted by PuppyFluffer 

 It's fear.  Fear of the unfamiliar, fear of pressure from family and friends, fear of acknowledging the wounding of the father if he's circumcised. 

What an excellent post....thank you.  I especially resonated with the bolded; that put into words why I think many circ'ed men don't want their sons to be "different."  Even my very anti-circ husband admitted that it's hard for him to recognize and acknowledge his wound.

I know these parents love their child so much, and I don't want to make this an issue where I'm personally offended at them going against all the advice I gave and research I provided.  I must remind myself that this is not a personal affront. 

[QueenOfTheMeadow]

I just want to remind everyone of the forum guidelines:

It is our wish that The Case Against Circumcision be an informative and welcoming space for those who are new to the subject of circumcision. This is not a space to bash others. In an effort to minimize language which might alienate those seeking information, we are cautious about using pejorative terms such as abuse, barbarism, mutilation, etc. when routinely discussing circumcision. Let the facts speak for themselves.

[QueenOfTheMeadow]

Originally Posted by PuppyFluffer 

Aka mommy,

That is a sad story about your co-worker's son.  You did what you could but now that he is having complications, perhaps the mother will reevaluate.  (Perhaps she thought a circumcised penis would be easier to care for and is now learning differently. The education plants a seed.  How it grows is not really up to those who do the planting to determine.

I think we really have to find ways to care for our own emotional health when dealing with this issue.  The pain can get to you and the burnout can hit.  Finding ways to emotionally let it go are important.  Meditation helps me.  Send love and peace and healing to them.  The hardest one for me to do this with is the medical community.  It's seriously difficult for me!  I have had a few negative experiences within the medical system that have left a lifelong distrust with me and it's hard to bless them, wish them well, visualize them in love and light.  But it's important to do for myself.  It takes strength to forgive and strength to hope.  I have found that my intactivist friends really get it on this issue and are awesome support when I am feeling down.

Thank you!

[MoonJelly]

To the OP, that was clearly a 'you convinced mom, but dad wanted it done and overrode her' situation.  Him posting about it publicly further proves that point. 

Hugs.  :(  BTDTx5.

[jessjgh1]

It's a really hard issue- both bringing it up and how to do so effectively. 

I gave info to a friend and she choose to circumcise, too.  Looking back, I didn't understand that she was so concerned about problems cropping up and also didn't realize how crappy the info she'd get from medical professionals.  I can't blame myself or her, because in the end she was made afraid of leaving a child intact by more than one doctor.  In her vulnerability I wouldn't expect her to break through that craziness and think rationally 'why would my intelligent friend choose this.'  I think if she had gotten that info and THEN I had visited her, I could have made a difference and truly answered her questions enough for her to feel more confident.

I remember how vulnerable I felt after my birth and was lucky I wasn't rushed or bullied into some really major decisions, although I regret some of the decisions I made.  Even when I was pregnant there were so many issues to wade through and it was hard to feel comfortable finding my voice.  But everything intensified after birth.  The combination of new motherhood, vulnerability and sleep deprivation can just be very very confusing and unsettling.  Everyone is going to handle all this differently and some may choose the comfort of a easy answer, not rocking the boat, etc. over logic.

Maybe you will hear more over time if you choose to be open to this friendship.

We can't predict what each person needs to hear, when they need it, and when they need support, but at least putting things out there is an opportunity and an opening for the information to get out there and the person to reach out.  Some will, some won't, some don't need to.  Sometimes we can provide everything we think is the right thing but miss what the person really needs to hear.

It still sucks, but it is important that we keep trying, because sometimes people just need a little nudge.

Jessica

[PuppyFluffer]

It can be hard for a new mother to advocate for her baby if the medical setting has just steam rolled over her.  It's hard to advocate for your baby if you can't advocate for yourself. 

What I wish is that the sanctity of birth would be respected and mothers supported in physicallly AND emotionally healthy ways.  Perhaps then we would have mothers who feel empowered and educated and  not overwhelmed and insecure.

Birth is such a transition. It's going into the unknown in a way a woman has never done before.....and even if you have birthed a baby before, each experience is different.

The sort of support that normalizes the normal (and able to handle the abnormal without panic) is what we need in birthing.