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Parents Not Allowed Into Homeschool Classes At The Museum - Page 2

post #21 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenmama2 View Post

Or leave. I can't see my DD being comfortable with this for quite a few years but I don@t see anything wrong with parents attending and being asked to remove themselves if they are causing a disturbance.


This puts the teacher in the really awkward position of having to single out an adult and ask her to leave the class because of her behavior. I don't think most adults would deal with this very gracefully, and I think parents who have insisted that they need to accompany their kids to a class like this would tend to deal less gracefully than most. And if the parent truly believe that she need to be with her child in the class, why would she then be willing to leave her child alone in the class and leave if the teacher asked her to go?

 

I actually found some of the classes and homeschool events when I wasn't supposed to leave to be more problematic... Often my kid didn't particularly care if I was around or not, and there were definitely things I would have liked to be able to do without having her with me, like errands and such. Nowadays, with cell phones, there wouldn't even be the issue of not being able to reach me if something went wrong (I finally got a cell phone when my daughter was 9 after she broke her arm while at a friend's house).

post #22 of 47

This is a hard question! There are some activities where I think that not allowing parents is perfectly acceptable and it would be odd for a parent to want to stay (for example, a day camp), and others where it would seem very strange to not allow at least parental observation.

 

In this case...

If the kids are supervised between classes by staff members, it's a situation where I'd expect it to be drop-off unless parental participation was explicitly required, and probably not appropriate for a child who isn't ready to separate from their parent. In this case, not allowing parents indiscriminately seems reasonable.

 

If the parents are responsible for the kids between classes, I'd expect more consideration to be given to parents and siblings who are stuck waiting around for three hours.

 

I would feel most comfortable if they allowed/encouraged/required one or two parents to stay as assistants/observers. I don't know if I would have said this a few weeks ago, but we recently had a presenter at a homeschooling event asking the kids if they really had more fun homeschooling instead of spending all day playing with other kids at school and things like that. 

post #23 of 47


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dar View Post

 

IME most 5-8 year olds would be comfortable being away from a parent for 45 minutes. If yours isn't, then of course, wait a year or two. I do think the issue is more that the class requirements aren't a good fit for your child right now rather than that they're bad requirements.

 

I agree with Dar on this one.

 

OP - It also sounds like you are concerned about the lack of sign-in and sign-out which I could understand. You could ask the staff to address this. Also, most museums have a PA system and they should be able to call you back to the classroom via the PA system if they needed you. If you are unsure how they would handle emergencies, I would ask them how they would handle things. Or just wait a while before signing up for a class like this.

 

A co-op sounds like a good fit for you.

post #24 of 47


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dar View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenmama2 View Post

Or leave. I can't see my DD being comfortable with this for quite a few years but I don@t see anything wrong with parents attending and being asked to remove themselves if they are causing a disturbance.


This puts the teacher in the really awkward position of having to single out an adult and ask her to leave the class because of her behavior. I don't think most adults would deal with this very gracefully, and I think parents who have insisted that they need to accompany their kids to a class like this would tend to deal less gracefully than most. And if the parent truly believe that she need to be with her child in the class, why would she then be willing to leave her child alone in the class and leave if the teacher asked her to go?

 

 

and see I would assume that a parent who knew his/her child needed them to stay close would be less likely to disturb the class since they woudn't want to have to deal with leaving their child or removing them from an activity they wanted to do. As for putting the teacher in an awkward position, teaching often is an awkward position. TBH I'm surprised that an unschooler would have a problem with an adult being singled out. If a child was causing the disturbance then sending them out would be ok but not an adult?

post #25 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenmama2 View Post

and see I would assume that a parent who knew his/her child needed them to stay close would be less likely to disturb the class since they woudn't want to have to deal with leaving their child or removing them from an activity they wanted to do. As for putting the teacher in an awkward position, teaching often is an awkward position. TBH I'm surprised that an unschooler would have a problem with an adult being singled out. If a child was causing the disturbance then sending them out would be ok but not an adult?

 

Well, it would be nice if things worked out that way, but the OP said that parents who chose to stay when they were permitted to the first time were talking and being disruptive... so it seems that it didn't.

 

I didn't read anywhere about disruptive children being sent out of the class... only adults. The class is for the kids, not for the mothers, so it seems reasonable that the teachers would expect to have to spend some time dealing with disruptive kids, and have mechanisms in place for that - like having the child come up and help one of the teachers, for example. That's part of their job, because they're there to teach a group of kids, and it's expected that some of their time will be devoted to maintaining order among the kids.

 

I don't think it's part of their job to have to police adults who are not signed up the class, and who are not there to take part in the class. In Rain's coop class the teacher did say things like, "Could everyone please step outside if you need to take a call," and the mothers ignored him and chatted away on their cell phones. He chose to ignore it rather than pointedly say to a group of women 15 years older than he was, "You, you, and you need to leave right now, because you're being disruptive and not respecting the rules" and while Rain wished he had, she also acknowledged that they probably would have made a scene and she understood why he didn't. 

 

And I don't understand what unschooling has to do with any of this...?

 

And there are classes intended for parents and kids together, and that's fine, too... we did some of those and enjoyed them. However, those classes were structured for an adult/child team, and parents were part of the activity by design. That's a perfectly valid way to design a class for kids, but not the only way.

post #26 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by chaoticzenmom View Post

Personally, l think it's great.  l don't know how many times I've seen parents do everything for their kids in these kinds of classes,or interrupt and ask their own questions  (acting like the student). . 

 

This is interesting.  I have seen parents in class ask lots of questions and I usually think it is great!  It role models life long learning, inquisitiveness, etc.  I do not think it should monopolize the teacher but there is a place for it.

 

I have a different opinion than most here.  As a general rule I think parents should be allowed in all classes.  The idea that I would not be allowed in a class puts my hackles up a bit - not for my older 2, certainly, but for my 8 year old.  Whether or not I would enroll a child in a class

I was not welcome in would depend on how my lack of welcome was expressed.  If it was a "we do not really have the room for parents, so we encourage drop off, but if you really want to quietly observe a bit you can"  would go over way better than a "no parents allowed".

 

Now the fact that I am allowed to stay does not necessarily mean I would.  It is dependant on a bunch of circumstances.  I tend to drop off as much as the next gal - but I always know i am welcome if need be.

 

I also question how hard it would be to accomodate parents.  I have run programs through  Girl Guides, a township and the library.  I have rarely had issues with parents.  On the contrary - they are often usefull, lol.   TBH if the class were quite intense I could see it being an issue - but I do not think classes for 5 yr olds (the OP's childs age) should be intense.  YMMV.

 

Many of the activities I have been in with HSers have been family friendly. Indeed the museums, etc, are often informed ahead of time that it will be mixed age, there will probably be a bunch of parents about, etc.  It has always worked fairly well.  To a degree I think that if they are going to offer classes to HSers they should be accomodating of how HSing often works.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

post #27 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by MommaCrystal View PostYou could go to another part of the museum with younger kids.  But there is no way for the teacher to contact a parent if there were an issue.  There is no sign in or out process.  Children are just released from the room to anyone or no one waiting outside.

I'd address this with the museum. Obviously, parents would come back to be there for the end of class, but what if a student has a problem or a class ends early for some reason?
 

post #28 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dar View Post

So do kids have to take all three classes? Or are there just three classes offered every day?

 

I don't think it's the teachers' job to control a crowd of parents, honestly. This is kind of a natural consequence when parents can't control themselves. Rain got really frustrated with some of the moms who insisted in joining classes at the homeschooling coop class she took - and their kids were teens.

 

IME most 5-8 year olds would be comfortable being away from a parent for 45 minutes. If yours isn't, then of course, wait a year or two. I do think the issue is more that the class requirements aren't a good fit for your child right now rather than that they're bad requirements.



 



Quote:
Originally Posted by DariusMom View Post



This. I think they're perfectly reasonable requirements and my DS would have been fine at 5.

If your kid isn't, that's also completely fine and kudos to you for knowing your kid and listening to what s/he would be comfortable with.



 

 

Yes to this.  My dd is a clinger, and we took toddler/preschool classes at the local rec center, and parents always attended with the kids.  Well..unbeknownst to me, there was ONE class that didn't allow parents in the room.  It never said this, but the teacher made it clear at the first class.  I could have had my money refunded, but chose to try it out...it went..uh...50/50?  DD would get scared a lot and leave class to come out to the hallway where I was....but she would also sometimes stay in class and have fun.  She did ask after that not to have a class like that again, and I respected that.  (the class in question was princess ballet for 3 year olds, by the way) So since then, I have had to search out classes that allow parents, which yes, has gotten harder and harder as she has gotten older.  (she is 6 now).  At this point, she still prefers to have me there for most classes, but is 100% fine with going to her beloved Art Class by herself.  I think we are going to try the Zoo classes next..they only allow parents for kids up to 4 years old, for 5 and up it is a drop off class, so she will need to be dropped off.  BUT..at this point..her love for all things Animal is overcoming her shyness and reticence to seperate, just like it did with Art Class   By spring session, I think she will be asking to go.  :)

 

post #29 of 47

I used to be irked by this because my oldest never wanted to do anything without me - she's 11 and still doesn't.  My almost 7 year old only recently is ok with it - *sometimes*.  My baby will go anywhere without me :)  So, we missed out on zoo classes and museum classes, but we did get to do some smaller classes as a family at a nature center.

 

Anyway, I just didn't sign up for anything that I couldn't go to.  AND anything I couldn't bring the younger siblings to.  It was harder when I had a baby, who was a major source of distraction, and I participated less when she was younger, but for me personally, the REASON we homeschool is so that I can be involved in their lives, so I can learn with them, and so that we can all enjoy the learning experience, if at all possible.  Also, it's really not convenient for me to drop off the children at random different places - because that means the other kids spend too much time in the car.  It's better if we can all do something together.

 

So, now, I can sign up the middle child for things, but the oldest has no interest in being on her own.  We're working on it, though, and I'm less frustrated because NOW, I understand that it's more about crowd-control than anything.  I don't think there is a subversive plot to teach my children something I don't want them exposed to - which I confess is how I felt originally!  

post #30 of 47

We have a local museum that has classes. They don't encourage or discourage you from coming with your child, but they do make you pay for a museum admission even if all you are doing is sitting in the hall outside of the classroom! We went to a couple of classes there which my oldest liked but I hate the fact that there is a charge for every freaking little thing, even storytime. read.gif

post #31 of 47

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MommaCrystal View Post

Leaving my child doesn't give me a breather either.  It's a children's museum.  There is no space for adults.  Parents stand in the hallway or sit on the stairs until their children come out. It isn't like I can really kick back with a book or anything. You could go to another part of the museum with younger kids.  But there is no way for the teacher to contact a parent if there were an issue.  There is no sign in or out process.  Children are just released from the room to anyone or no one waiting outside. 

 

I think drop-off classes can be a wonderful thing.  I wouldn't be comfortable with a class like this that had a no parents allowed policy.  Pre-school, co-op, dance, etc are all regularly-scheduled classes that generally have emergency contact info and release policies.  While the museum may have a PA system to notify parents in the event of an emergency, the fact that they release young children without making sure they are with the appropriate adult is a red flag for me.  I think that a no parents policy makes sense for classes that are regular events, where you get to know the teachers and other staff.  For infrequent classes, like this museum is offering, I would not be comfortable being told I was not allowed to observe a class that my child was in.  

post #32 of 47

I think for me the issue is less that they don't allow parents in and more that it seems from what you've described that their safety policies are incredibly lacking.  My 5 yo takes two classes - one's at the local YMCA and the other is at a local Nature Center.  Both allow parents to stay if they wish and both have very defined drop-off/pick-up and emergency contact type stuff.  I wouldn't be comfortable taking him to a class that didn't have those structures in place.

 

Based upon some responses here I'm getting the idea that perhaps I'm a bit odd.  Both classes last two hours each and I've dropped of my son for both w/out any issue.  I have two younger children that would not mix well with the waiting.  I get the feeling with the class at the YMCA that I'm one of only maybe two or three parents who do this, but it seems silly to hang around there and try to keep my not quite 3yo and 1yo from raising too much of a ruckus.  Sometimes he's been a bit timid about being left, but when we come to pick him up he's having a blast.  Most of the time, though, he's adamant that we are not to stay.  shrug.gif Go with your gut.

post #33 of 47

My DD is a young K {4yo} and doesn't go to any classes that I can't attend with her. She barely started agreeing to sit at storytime by herself while I'm browsing in the kids section of the library. Just a a rule, I wouldn't do anything with her that I can't be there to help her if she needs it. That includes Girl Scouts even - I function as her troop leader and she's a troop of one.

 

That's the whole point of HSing - helping your child learn with one-on-one attention. If I wanted to have someone else to teach her something without my involvement I'd send her to school.

post #34 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Starflower View Post

 

OP - It also sounds like you are concerned about the lack of sign-in and sign-out which I could understand. You could ask the staff to address this. Also, most museums have a PA system and they should be able to call you back to the classroom via the PA system if they needed you. If you are unsure how they would handle emergencies, I would ask them how they would handle things. Or just wait a while before signing up for a class like this.



This is what I was thinking. I'm having trouble telling if you're upset specifically about this, or if it's both this and the fact that your child is just not ready to be without you in a room full of strangers. If it's the first, see if that can be addressed. If it's both, then I would just wait a year and try again. At age 5 my DD would definitely NOT have been okay with it. By the time she turned 6 she was fine for things like that. :)

post #35 of 47

I think the sign in and out issues should be addressed. I feel that is the real issues.

 

I am going to get flamed but my son is 16 and doing a college program and I see a real need for parents to not be helicopter parents.Many of the parents that I ran into these programs were more likely to be helicopter parents. At 5 there is a range of development and their should be movement to short period with out mom around. I don't think 8 hours a day is necessarily best. At 5 -8 range if the child cannot separate then it should be a goal. I would ask seriously if I wasn't created the positive balance of pudding independence and interdependence.

 

I am not a complete unschooler or classical. I am a mix batched. But I think it is good for our kids to explore without us so they can learn how to question and ask questions. Figure and discover things on their own and with their peers. Even though we have and had structure (because that is what some kids needs) I do think there is value on self teaching and the gaining from knowledge from someone else.

 

What parents often ask in these classes are not what the kids want to learn. They aren't their questions so they miss learning what they want and need. They can feel "less" or not learn HOW to ask for themselves. They do not learn to trust their capabilities.

 

One example that I saw with was and an eagle program. This was a mixed parent child group. The parents had their questions they were fascinated and I saw many kids wanted to focus on the gross stuff.....then influenced (often negatively) by the parents reactions. I feel this is counter productive to learning. They were following the adults lead and no room to explore their curiosities. Parents were to afraid the child would learn the wrong stuff or miss that what the Eagle's diet was. My children learned about how pesticides almost killed eagles off...they didn't focus on the food chain or diet -much. They questioned that later or they connected the dots when we learned about other animals and the food chain and webs.

 

This is a food for thought video about our roll in teaching

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXxYgpQhsrU

 

Another flame moment here, but I make reservations for cars. I have parents call in because their children have not learned how to themselves. These are 20-30 somethings that don't know how to make car reservations, hotel reservations, et. Go to colleges and you see young people who have been crippled because the gradual process of teaching independence, there for making mistakes on their own has been denied.This is harmful in the long run.  Now that she has decided to go to school (and my son) they both have learned how to question and follow their interest further.  My 

 

Teaching independence is important and can make your child feel good about themselves. A few years ago my dd did a Mother's Day advent. One of the activities was they held hands in a circle and told one reason they loved their mom ---but the catch was they couldn't say what anyone else did. This was a group of 20 girls and my dd was last. The leader joked with her daughter about doing her laundry. These girls said everything their mom's did for them. My dd was disturbed because I no longer did many if not most of those things for her all the time. When it got her her there was a pause then she said, "I love my mom because she taught me how to do my own laundry and cook if I want." Later I got a hug and a thank you for making her a capable person.

 

I do think there is a balance to raising independent/interdependence kids. I think AP and homeschooling is great but at the same time I think we need to make sure we are loving not smothering or hampering their growth. And yes, there seems to be a disproportionate of the homeschooled kids in my son's program that seem hampered by over involvement in their child's education.

 

I did not homeschool to learn with my children -- that was just a natural side effect of homeschooling.  I homeschooled to give them the best education.  I homeschooled so I could grow with my children and to make sure they grew strong and thirsting for more knowledge, while knowing I am not able to give them it all....but help them find ways to get it themselves. I have had to grow and learn that if I am not careful I place my fears into my children, with will harm them more than help them.  In the traditional school environment, I didn't learn how to take risk.  I still struggle with that.  But we actively work so our kids will learn to push those boundries and take risk. 

 

A friend of mine is sending me May Contain Nuts by John O'Farrell.  Because of discussions we have had. 

post #36 of 47

Marsupial mom...no flames from me.  I agree with much of what you said. 

 

However, the thing I got from the Op was the museum was making it mandatory that parents do not attend programs with their 5 year old.

 

There is a difference between thinking things are a good idea in general and legislating it.  You may think it is a good idea that 5 year olds learn to separate from their parents - but should you make a rule that says they have to separate  or may not participate?  

 

As per whether or not a 5 year should separate from their mother or father - I think it is up to the 5 year old and their parents.  Some kids are ready at 5 and some are not - I do not think "not being ready at 5" is a sign of future dependancy issues.  5 is still quite young.

 

 

 

 

 

post #37 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by MommaCrystal View Post

My understanding is they don't allow parents because the first time they did it the parents talked too much.  The instructors didn't know how to control the crowd so they took the parents out.



This has happened to us MANY times in the past....even recently. Someone will organize a homeschool tour or class somewhere, and the parents want to do all their own teaching/interacting with their kids during the tour or workshop. We went on a group trip at the museum for the RI School of Design, and many of the parents were so RUDE....constantly chit-chatting amongst themselves and with their children while the guide was trying to give a very informative tour. It's no wonder people often think homeschoolers are socially inept, when the parents don't even have a clue.

 

I agree with Dar. It's not the teacher's responsibility to control the parents.

post #38 of 47

But I find it completely ok for someone to say if your child can not do ABC then they cannot participate.

 

Also, your unable to seperate child is not the only child in the room. Your presence can be ruining the learning experience of other children  who are more ready for that activity.  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

Marsupial mom...no flames from me. I agree with much of what you said.

 

However, the thing I got from the Op was the museum was making it mandatory that parents do not attend programs with their 5 year old.

 

There is a difference between thinking things are a good idea in general and legislating it. You may think it is a good idea that 5 year olds learn to separate from their parents - but should you make a rule that says they have to separate or may not participate?

 

As per whether or not a 5 year should separate from their mother or father - I think it is up to the 5 year old and their parents. Some kids are ready at 5 and some are not - I do not think "not being ready at 5" is a sign of future dependancy issues. 5 is still quite young.

 

 

 

 

 

post #39 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsupialmom View Post

But I find it completely ok for someone to say if your child can not do ABC then they cannot participate.

 

Also, your unable to seperate child is not the only child in the room. Your presence can be ruining the learning experience of other children  who are more ready for that activity.  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

Marsupial mom...no flames from me. I agree with much of what you said.

 

However, the thing I got from the Op was the museum was making it mandatory that parents do not attend programs with their 5 year old.

 

There is a difference between thinking things are a good idea in general and legislating it. You may think it is a good idea that 5 year olds learn to separate from their parents - but should you make a rule that says they have to separate or may not participate?

 

As per whether or not a 5 year should separate from their mother or father - I think it is up to the 5 year old and their parents. Some kids are ready at 5 and some are not - I do not think "not being ready at 5" is a sign of future dependancy issues. 5 is still quite young.

 

 

 

 

 


Yes - but why is the default to children who are able to separate?

 

At 5, it is appropriate to go either way - able to separate or not.

 

In many ways it is the museums program and they can do what they want - but I see it as part of a cultural issue:  the tendancy to insist on early independence of children.  It is not something I agree with.  

 

 

 One of the reason people mention over and over again when discussing why they HS is family togetherness, and high levels of parental input of learning/socialising experiences.  The degree to which they follow this is individual, of course, but as a group they probably value it more, than say, the general public.  It does not matter with it is correct or not - it is a parental decision and that is that.

 

I think if you offer an experience to any group, you should be mindful of its expectations....I would not push early academic on a group of Waldorf children visiting a museum - I would tailor the program.  I think it is legit to tailor the program to the needs of the participants.

 

I must admit I am a little suprised that most people on this thread are OK with the museum saying "no parents" to workshops for 5 year old.  That would not fly in my area.  While many parents would be Ok with dropping off - they would NOT be Ok with feeling they must drop off or are unwelcome in the class/workshop.  Maybe it is a regional thing - and relates to value a culture places on early independence.

post #40 of 47

Maybe the problem is that it's a 5-8 class not just a 5 year old class? So the class is really intended for older kids and 5 year olds who happen to be able to handle it. If a kid can't handle the class at 5, the class isn't for them right now and they can come back next year or the year after.

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