Horrible Tall Ship overnight field trip, 10-year-old has to write Thank You letter, how to tell...

[Tanibani]

My 10-year-old son (5th grade) is in a private school.  I pulled him out of public school in 4th grade and put him in an AWESOME (compared to his public elementary school) private school, but that closed end of 4th grade after 32 years.  I had to find a new school and thanks to some high praise from a neighbor and limited options, we chose this place.

He finally is getting used to it.  (He's been begging to be homeschooled for months and I'm seriously considering it for middle school.  DH & I do not want to pull him out of this place.  We are adamant he finish the year.)  There is only one 5th grade teacher.  She is very nice and warm and smart.  I like her a lot.  They have an annual over night field trip TALL SHIP OVERNIGHT ENCAMPMENT.  THere is a captain, 2 crew and the kids are supposed to experience what it was like for life as a sailor in 1834.  The trip was last Thursday.

Problem is, this group of 3 adults (sounds like) spent most of their time YELLING at the kids and the supervising parents.  Some kids were crying (or fighting back tears) and miserable.  My son was a Leader in charge of his group of 4 kids, but they were goof offs and giggled and stuff (normal) and made jokes and he is the one who got burned for it.  (He's grateful that one of the parents helped him keep his group quiet.  He said it was impossible for him.)  They forced him (and 2 other kids) to eat onions.  That's not the worse part for me.  The worse part for me was that this did not sound educational at all.  It sounded like 3 employees who are frustrated with their lot, taking their role a wee bit too far.  Only dads were allowed on the ship.  My son said the parents got yelled at too and I'm shocked they stood for it.  I would have walked myself and my kid off the ship.

Being on a ship was one of the worst things for people 200 years ago.  Little food, starvation, illness, death and hard, hard labor.  It was practically a death sentence.  I know that on whaling ships, there was a job where the men had to go into a pit of huge chunks of oily whale blubber to slice it up.  Problem was, the oil was so slick, the huge knives would cut into the sailors.  Many ended up dead or maimed for life.  Do we really need to recreate THAT for kids to know how bad it is?  Of course not.

I don't see how this was educational or a growth experience in any sense of the word.  I don't see subjecting someone to abuse as positive.  That's total B.S. and the funny thing is, as I am aging, I have less and less tolerance for it.  This program might have started as a positive thing, but in the wrong hands it goes south fast.

The trip was last Thursday.  I wasn't sure if I should be the only one complaining or how.  Email?  cc the 2 directorsof the school?  Who I really do want to speak with also.  

Today is Tuesday (2:30 am) and my son had to write a THANK YOU LETTER yesterday for homework to the crew (I thought it was to the driving parents).  I left him alone to write it while I bathed his little sister.

He wrote it, but it's a complete lie:  Dear Pilgrim staff,

I really enjoyed this field trip because it was an example of what it would really be like to be a ten-year-sailor; I also enjoyed the trip because we got to sleep on the Pilgrim.  (Smelly gross uncomfortable beds, which I knew was coming, but whatever.)  I also got very disciplined on the trip; over all I thought this was a great and unique field trip.

One of the most fun things on the trip was rowing the long boat to get the cowhides.  But the best thing of the trip was being the leader of the hide gatherers.  Two of the challenges for me were first, staying up on the night watch, and bringing the hides from the cabin to the Pilgrim.  Thank you for the trip and for spending time with us.

First, I feel like an ass for trusting adults to do this right and not questioning it more deeply.  My son trusts me and the school and I feel like that trust was broken.  Not cool.

Secondly, if my son doesn't write this letter correctly, the class was warned they would stay in study hall to rewrite it.  Grrrrrrr.

Third, I don't want to teach my son to lie.  I know this isn't a hard-line school and if I speak up, it will be taken seriously.  I'm just annoyed I have to at this point.  I don't want to complain to the higher powers that be, but I guess I have to.

What should I do?  Send her an email?  Go early this am to talk to her, before class starts?  Explain it sounded like a really bad field trip and I don't want my son writing handing in that FAKE thank you letter.  AND that I don't want him dinged for it.  Should he just accept it if he is?  That's not right.

When the kids got back and I asked her how it went, she said it was great (denial) and my son was a Leader.  Her email to the parents:

"Thank you so much for your participation, assistance and incredible attitudes that were so important in making our Tall Ships experience successful.  I know you are all busy and taking this time to make the fifth grade's experience so memorable is deeply appreciated.  The children were wonderful and I hope each took something meaningful from this unusual learning experience.  It was a long cold night but you all made it feel warm and exciting.  As the only "lady" I want you to know how much I appreciated your care of me and the focus you exhibited to make the experience about growth and independence for our kids. Hope you found your own cozy beds inviting, and I will assume to caught up on your sleep!"

oh yeah, and the kids had to take turns staying up keeping watch.  Son claims he was up longer than other kids and it wasn't fair.  That really doesn't bug me.  If everyone had nightwatch, that's not the end of the world.  What I object to is how they were all yelled at for most of the time.

I'd appreciate your input.

[mattemma04]

 Eat onions? Yell at kids? What the heck! If someone did that to me I would consider it abusive. I would have  let my son tell the truth and then remove him from the school. Since you are making him stay in the school the safer option for him would be to submit a letter lying about how much he liked the experience.Little point in you complaining either since it is your son that has to be at school every day dealing with the aftereffects of your complaints.

Atleast your son was able to tell you the truth. Sad that such an experience was considered a *successful* educational experience.

[VisionaryMom]

I really dislike these living history exhibits for this very reason. My graduate work is in history, and from an educational standpoint, they're usually grossly inaccurate. You tend to get people with a marginal knowledge, if that, who try to go crazy in a role to show how "it used to be." For example, onions were a staple food on ships because they keep relatively well, and they're full of vitamins. Forcing sailors to eat onions, though? Not so much. The onions weren't a punishment; they were a lifeline. That lesson is lost, though, when a kid is forced to eat one for punishment (which, actually, would be a hill to die on for me).

I would not encourage my child to lie. I suppose by 5th grade, I'd let my kids make their decision. There are times when it's okay to get a bad grade on principle, and this would be one of those times for me. I absolutely would support one of my kids refusing to write the letter and getting a bad grade.

Also, I probably would speak to the teacher. How about emailing her and saying you have some concerns about the trip and would like to set up a meeting. Perhaps she's gotten used to the treatment, since this is an overnight field trip. It's also possible she realizes how bad it was but doesn't want to put that out there in the hopes of staving off a wave of complaints. I would contact the company that owns the ship as well, especially if the people running this field trip aren't the owners. They may very well not be following the company's policies.

[HappyMommy2]

Separate the two issues.

1. The homework assignment is to learn how to write an appreciative thank you letter.  How you and your son feel about the actual trip is not relevent to the homework assignment.  Think of thanking a great grandma for a fuzzy christmas sweater that you would never actually wear.  It would be foolish to get a bad grade on purpose, and that is not how to teach him to be successful in school or life.  He has to follow the rules, and jump through hoops in order to get good grades. It is what it is.

OR - If it is really important to you that there are no fibs on the letter, you could teach him to make ambiguous statements like "The field trip really opened my eyes to the way things might have been in the past!" and "The trip was a really interesting and surprising experience".

2. The bad experience.  Your son could write an honest letter, and then either keep it or send it to the company himself.  You could tell the teacher your true feelings about the trip, but remember there isn't anything she can do about it at this point.

Good luck, this is a tough one!

[kathymuggle]

You should complain to the school.  This sounds like a field trip they do every year, and they should know that the yelling and force feeding are not acceptable.  They need this information to make informed choices.

As per the letter...that one is a little trickier.

Have you asked DS what he wants to do?  How does he feel about writing what amounts to lies?

If he is adamant he writes a letter you could coach him writing an ambiguous one so he does not have to lie.

If he is less certain about writing a letter, you could talk to the teacher about his experience and the consequence for not writing a letter.  Maybe he could do an alternate assignment - write a thank you letter to one of the volunteers, for example.

I must say I do not think writing a thank you letter to this organisation is the same as writing a thank you letter to grandma for an ugly fuzzy Xmas sweater.

Ugly Xmas sweater?  Benign

Organisation you pay for services which in turn yells at attendees and makes them eat onions?    Not so benign

[sapphire_chan]

"Dear Crew,

Thank you for teaching me that some adults cannot handle being in positions of authority. Please find a detailed list of problems attached.

sincerely, me

cc

attachment"

Or:

"Dear Crew,

I have been requested to tell you that (insert regular thank you letter)."

By the way, please note that you don't need to leave him in school until an arbitrary time. You can pull him out immediately.

[HappyMommy2]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

I must say I do not think writing a thank you letter to this organisation is the same as writing a thank you letter to grandma for an ugly fuzzy Xmas sweater.

Ugly Xmas sweater?  Benign

Organisation you pay for services which in turn yells at attendees and makes them eat onions?    Not so benign

You totally missed the point.  I did NOT say that the horrible trip = xmas sweater.  I'm saying the homework assignment  = xmas sweater. 

The assignment to write a specific kind of thank you letter.  That is what he will be graded on.  The Mom can explain that the assignment is to write a letter as if he had a good time on the trip.

Separating the issues can allow the kid to maintain his grades AND allow the mom an outlet for how to deal with the awfulness of the trip.  Whether that is contacting the teacher, principal, company or all of them is up to her.
 

[GuildJenn]

What a weird experience. What's next, recreating leprosy?

For the thank you I agree you can either go with a grade penalty or coach some ambiguous language or let it go.  I'd probably let it go, since writing a gracious thank you even with gritted teeth to me isn't a moral issue but one of those social things we all do from time to time in our lives, including work exit interviews, etc. In other words that "sometimes we lie to grease the wheels of polite society" is a lesson that would be ok with me. 

However I would definitely pursue the experience with the teacher and principal/directors of the school. I'd start with a letter and ask for a meeting. These are the things that would bother me:

1. It doesn't sound like parents were given a chance to give informed consent. Was there an agenda for the trip given out in advance? Were parents informed that their kids would have to eat onions, do night watch, etc.?  That would be #1 on my request list. Nothing should be going on that parents don't know about in advance (within reason). I used to organize a winter camp for students and parents were given a list of all the activities.

2. Were students provided with a safe and secure environment for learning? Because bottom line: That's what a school needs to provide. I would share the trust issue.

3. Why only dads? I don't get that. It may be minor...but it also speaks to the way the environment was dictated.

4. Was this really a quality learning experience?

For the group leader thing, to me that is poor management but maybe not so much of a dealbreaker. That happens with group projects, etc. I would ask whether leaders were given additional support or privileges.

I'd also network with other parents to see if they share your concerns. The problem will be that you only have your son's version at this point.

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by GuildJenn 

What a weird experience. What's next, recreating leprosy?

For the thank you I agree you can either go with a grade penalty or coach some ambiguous language or let it go.  I'd probably let it go, since writing a gracious thank you even with gritted teeth to me isn't a moral issue but one of those social things we all do from time to time in our lives, including work exit interviews, etc. In other words that "sometimes we lie to grease the wheels of polite society" is a lesson that would be ok with me. 

I agree - sometimes we do tell white lies for what we see as a greater good.

I am not sure this is one of those times, though.  Usually it is for a good reason though...I am not sure there is much to be gained by lying in this situation

I am also not sure it is something we should ask of kids.  I do get you did not say you would ask a child to lie - just putting it out there.

I would not ask a child to write a thank you note for an experience they did not enjoy as I do not ask kids to lie, or to lie for grades.

If the assignment is to learn to write a thank you note I do not see why a teacher would not agree to an alternate assignment.  Would a teacher want a child to lie in an assignment?

This might be moot though, as it appears from the Op her son has written a letter.  If he did so of his own choosing as it is not his hill to die on, so be it.  I would support a child in either writing or not writing the letter -  and I would point out the pros/cons to each choice.

Edited by kathymuggle - 12/14/10 at 8:44am

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by HappyMommy2 

1. The homework assignment is to learn how to write an appreciative thank you letter.  How you and your son feel about the actual trip is not relevent to the homework assignment.  Think of thanking a great grandma for a fuzzy christmas sweater that you would never actually wear.  It would be foolish to get a bad grade on purpose, and that is not how to teach him to be successful in school or life.  He has to follow the rules, and jump through hoops in order to get good grades. It is what it is.

OR - If it is really important to you that there are no fibs on the letter, you could teach him to make ambiguous statements like "The field trip really opened my eyes to the way things might have been in the past!" and "The trip was a really interesting and surprising experience".

Hmm. I never jumped hoops to get grades, and I went to college at 16. I don't think my success in life has been diminished by the fact that I wouldn't write a thank-you letter to a company I paid to be mean to me. There were a few - precious few, but still - assignments that I didn't do out of protest. (I was very angsty.) It's okay to take that stand, and taking a stand is, for me, more important than learning the formatting to write a letter. I believe that my son would take my position because he's angsty, too, but my daughter likely would write the letter out of politeness. I'd be okay with either position, but if the OP's son doesn't want to write the letter, then I think that's okay. If her son doesn't care about being told to write the letter, then I'd let that part go but still speak to his teacher about my concerns. IOW, I wouldn't force the issue of the letter writing either way, though I'd probably talk to my child about how s/he felt about writing it.

There are ways to word letters to fulfill the assignment without saying thank you, of course, just like you'd say, "thanks for the thought" to Grandma, though her gift was hideous. I don't know that it would pass muster with the teacher, however, so you're back to the issue of lying because it's your assignment versus refusing to lie but getting a bad grade.

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

I agree - sometimes we do tell white lies for what we see as a greater good.

I am not sure this is one of those times, though.  Usually it is for a good reason though...I am not sure there is much to be gained by lying in this situation

I am also not sure it is something we should ask of kids.  I do get you did not say you would ask a child to lie - just putting it out there.

I would not ask a child to write a thank you note for an experience they did not enjoy as I do not ask kids to lie, or to lie for grades.

Yes. This is a much better articulation of what I wanted to say.

[Tigerle]

Just be glad they didn't replicate "kissing the gunner's daughter"!

Seriously, this experience sounds abusive AND useless to me. And I think a lot of people need to be told the truth, and one person to tell this truth should be your child himself - in writing. It sounds like he is a strong writer, and he's already written the assignment he's to be graded on. Would he consider it punishment if he were to write a second letter with the truth and told his teacher handing it in  "this one's the assignment and in the second I wrote what I really thought about the trip, because you ought to know"?

And you complain yourself, in your own words, to whomever you feel it right.

[choli]

Originally Posted by Tanibani 

They have an annual over night field trip TALL SHIP OVERNIGHT ENCAMPMENT.  THere is a captain, 2 crew and the kids are supposed to experience what it was like for life as a sailor in 1834.  The trip was last Thursday.

Problem is, this group of 3 adults (sounds like) spent most of their time YELLING at the kids and the supervising parents.  Some kids were crying (or fighting back tears) and miserable.  My son was a Leader in charge of his group of 4 kids, but they were goof offs and giggled and stuff (normal) and made jokes and he is the one who got burned for it.  (He's grateful that one of the parents helped him keep his group quiet.  He said it was impossible for him.)  They forced him (and 2 other kids) to eat onions.  That's not the worse part for me.  The worse part for me was that this did not sound educational at all.  It sounded like 3 employees who are frustrated with their lot, taking their role a wee bit too far.  Only dads were allowed on the ship.  My son said the parents got yelled at too and I'm shocked they stood for it.  I would have walked myself and my kid off the ship.

Being on a ship was one of the worst things for people 200 years ago.  Little food, starvation, illness, death and hard, hard labor.  It was practically a death sentence.  I know that on whaling ships, there was a job where the men had to go into a pit of huge chunks of oily whale blubber to slice it up.  Problem was, the oil was so slick, the huge knives would cut into the sailors.  Many ended up dead or maimed for life.  Do we really need to recreate THAT for kids to know how bad it is?  Of course not.

I don't see how this was educational or a growth experience in any sense of the word.  I don't see subjecting someone to abuse as positive.  That's total B.S. and the funny thing is, as I am aging, I have less and less tolerance for it.  This program might have started as a positive thing, but in the wrong hands it goes south fast.

 

 Given the bolded above, I am curious to know what exactly you were expecting? Gentle discipline for sailors on a 19th ccentury ship? It would seem to me pretty obvious that would not be the case, so if I objected I would just keep my kid home from the trip.

[nanette0269]

I would have him rewrite another letter.  On the top of the first one, write in bold letters "letter of appreciation - for teacher viewing only - do not mail this".  I would then have him write another letter, and on the top of that, white in bold letters "honest response - for mailing only."

He understands how to write an appreciation letter...he shoudlnt be penalized for that.  But just be clear that this is a letter IS NOT based on reality.  If they want to send the other one, its up to them. :)

[GuildJenn]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

I agree - sometimes we do tell white lies for what we see as a greater good.

I am not sure this is one of those times, though.  Usually it is for a good reason though...I am not sure there is much to be gained by lying in this situation

I am also not sure it is something we should ask of kids.  I do get you did not say you would ask a child to lie - just putting it out there.

I would not ask a child to write a thank you note for an experience they did not enjoy as I do not ask kids to lie, or to lie for grades.

If the assignment is to learn to write a thank you note I do not see why a teacher would not agree to an alternate assignment.  Would a teacher want a child to lie in an assignment?

This might be moot though, as it appears from the Op her son has written a letter.  If he did so of his own choosing as it is not his hill to die on, so be it.  I would support a child in either writing or not writing the letter -  and I would point out the pros/cons to each choice.

I think letting the child have a hand in the decision is a really good approach.

But - I really wouldn't have a problem with my child writing a thank-you that was positive. It may not be a very popular thing to say in counter-cultural circles, but I don't personally believe everything has to be a battle for The One Truth and there are just so many times at work and in other places where learning to let something go and be gracious is an advantage.

That's not to say that as the parent I would not fight this one with with school. I just wouldn't make it part of the thank-you-note process, personally.

[blizzard_babe]

Can you e-mail the teacher and say your son didn't have a good time, and, what's more (since sometimes we SHOULD write thank-you notes for things we don't really enjoy, like ugly socks from Great-Aunt Margie), both you and he felt it was not just a to-be-endured experience, but fairly detrimental? I'm of the opinion that we (adults and children alike) SHOULD say thank you for things we're not really thankful for, in some situations. This isn't one of them because it doesn't really seem like the people he's thanking have his best interests in mind (good intentions mean a lot when it comes to "earning" a thank-you, IMO)... or if they do, they're in need of a bit of an education on historical re-enactment and how to present unpleasant stuff to kids. Real soldiers and sailors swore like... um... solidiers and sailors. You don't replicate that part in front of kids. You don't give them scurvy. You don't ravage mistresses. There's a line, and these guys crossed it.

You could ask for an alternate assignment... either a thank-you to the parent drivers or chaperones (if they're working on friendly letters in writing class), or a persuasive paper on why next year's fifth grade cohort should get a different overnight field trip experience (if the idea of the assignment is to have them write something - anything - about the trip).

[kathymuggle]

nm

Edited by kathymuggle - 12/14/10 at 10:26am

[Emmeline II]

Originally Posted by blizzard_babe 

Can you e-mail the teacher and say your son didn't have a good time, and, what's more (since sometimes we SHOULD write thank-you notes for things we don't really enjoy, like ugly socks from Great-Aunt Margie), both you and he felt it was not just a to-be-endured experience, but fairly detrimental? I'm of the opinion that we (adults and children alike) SHOULD say thank you for things we're not really thankful for, in some situations. This isn't one of them because it doesn't really seem like the people he's thanking have his best interests in mind (good intentions mean a lot when it comes to "earning" a thank-you, IMO)... or if they do, they're in need of a bit of an education on historical re-enactment and how to present unpleasant stuff to kids. Real soldiers and sailors swore like... um... solidiers and sailors. You don't replicate that part in front of kids. You don't give them scurvy. You don't ravage mistresses. There's a line, and these guys crossed it.

You could ask for an alternate assignment... either a thank-you to the parent drivers or chaperones (if they're working on friendly letters in writing class), or a persuasive paper on why next year's fifth grade cohort should get a different overnight field trip experience (if the idea of the assignment is to have them write something - anything - about the trip).

[Tanibani]

Thanks to all who took the time to reply.  I decided this isn't a deal breaker to me.  DH thinks I'm being "too codependent" and "life isn't fair sometimes, it's not the end of the world."  He feels the thank you letter should be written because these people took time out of their lives to do this.  (He gave me the aunt analogy before I read it here.)  (Where is my exasperated face thingy?)  DH definitely doesn't think this is worth dying on a hill for.

So I decided to send the letter as is and get more info from parents.  I called one and she said her daughter had a great time.  Apparently the Captain took a liking to her.  She suggested I call one of the dads who chaperoned as is a psychologist to hear his take.  That sounds fair.  I'll keep ya' posted.

[sapphire_chan]

I think the experience was an idiotic idea. If they want to show kids about how life really was in history, the brutal conditions of a 19th century sailing vessel where the captain is GOD is not the time nor place to "send" them.