Predicament with discipline for DD's room; WWYD?

[mom2happy]

DD (7) has a hard time cleaning her room. She can do it, but sometimes she becomes overwhelmed and just sits there. She carries on, complains, calls me names...... and just sits in there not wanting to start. It doesn't move forward from this.

I have to keep passing by and directing her and it can take hours. When she finally wants to start moving she does it and eventually comes out all sweet, "I cleaned my room mommy".

I try to get her to maintain it once it's clean, but it's a small room with tons of stuff. She gets inspired with an activity and can turn the room from clean and organized into a disaster in about 30 minutes. I remind her that she should put away what she took out and she says "I know mommy". I don't want to get in her way when she is being creative, so I leave her alone.

Ive been using the same method to teach both of my kids how to clean their rooms. DS is 5 and when I tell him it's time to straighten up his rooms- he takes care of it from top to bottom in about 15 minutes. He realizes that there will be no TV show or extra privileges until it's done. He's very matter of fact about it. He doesn't want to waste his time.

DD is extremely difficult almost every step of the day. She requires more of me (not purposely, I know it's not her fault) than my 7 month old baby and DS combined. EVERYTHING is such a big deal.

So, anyway, the predicament is this; Yesterday she had 3 hours to clean her room. The room is such a disaster that you cant even see the floor. This mess happened in just one hour after school.

I vacuum and dust every Wednesday. This is the way it has been for a year. She has dust allergies and Wednesday is the only day I can do it.

She woke up early this morning and would have had time before school but just wouldn't do it.

On the 2 recent occasions that she has done this, I have been forced to clean her room to be able to vacuum and dust.

I told her if it happens again, I will have to pick everything up and put it in a bag and that I'm not sure what I am going to do with that bag. Well, here I am and I don't know what to do. I sure cant have her come home to a clean sparkling room.

I hate this. I never thought I would even say that about the bag, but I don't know what to do.

I cant do everything for her. Ideas anyone?

[madskye]

I have a five year old who has a difficult time cleaning--even putting crayons back in the box is a struggle.

I do limit the amount of toys and stuff that are available.  It's not a punitive thing, but if I see her room starting to fill up with crap, I go in with a box and clean it out, carry the box up to my closet and wait to see if she ever needs/asks for any of those things.  If not, the box goes to garbage/goodwill in a month or so.

I have plastic bin drawers for all her stuff.  So, cleaning up is not hard.  She has a 3 drawer bin for Barbies and Polly Pockets.  She has a 3 drawer bin for all her crafts.  I don't care how she puts stuff in there (it can be stuffed or out of order) as long as it's in the bins.  She still dillies, but so far it works pretty well.  The bins are from Target, and they weren't too expensive.

One thing I do for myself is turn on the stereo and tell myself that I will clean up a room for the duration of a song.  I turn it up really loud and zoom around the room picking things up.  That might be fun for her, and help her speed up.

[lynsage]

Limit the amount of stuff she's allowed to keep in her room. Monitor her when she's "being creative" and make sure she's cleaning up one project before she starts another. Set up bins that she can sort her things into when it's time to put them away. (We got a wooden rack full of plastic bins from a garage sale for 10 bucks.) Insist that she spend a few minutes every night before bedtime cleaning up whatever little stuff is still lying around from the day. And help her for a few minutes if she's stuck.

These steps totally turned around my 6 yo DD's messy room situation.

[Magella]

I also limit how many toys are available. At least a couple of times a year, we've gone into the kids' rooms and cleaned them out. Toys they rarely play with go into boxes and we store them away. Broken toys get tossed out. Now and then we'll purge stored toys and either donate or throw away old toys. Sometimes we'll rotate toys-if they want to take some out of storage, other toys go into storage. It really cuts down on the clutter. 

Another thing that helps is having the toys organized, so that each thing has a "home" and it's easy to put it there. 

One thing I'm sensitive to is how overwhelming a mess can be, and how hard it can be to know where to start. I know that if a room is really cluttered, I find myself standing in the middle of it not knowing what to do. For me, visually it's overwhelming. I have trouble making a plan. I can get "lost" in the mess, it's just hard for me to get started. I know it sounds silly, but it's really hard for me. I try to keep in mind that cleaning up can be hard for my kids, too. For my 7 year old, for example, it helps if I give her a specific thing to start with. It also helps her if she knows she doesn't have to clean the whole, giant, overwhelming, frustrating mess at once. She has a desk that she regularly (and quickly!) makes a big mess out of. When it's gotten really messy (either because she was extra busy or because I haven't been making sure she cleans it up every day), I'll tell her to start with one thing and only clean until she gets frustrated. Then she can take a break. She's far more willing to do it when she knows she doesn't have to tackle the entire thing all at once.

I also find that making cleaning up part of a consistent routine that I enforce really, really helps. If it's happening every day, at roughly the same time every day, it's more likely that they'll get it done and get it done quickly. Hands down, this has been the single most important and effective part of making sure this house stays reasonably neat and clean. It does take time to establish that routine and see it begin to work, and it does take effort to keep it up, but it really does help.

[elus0814]

We had the same problem. We solved it two ways. One, we went in their rooms, with the kids, and tossed, donated, or boxed up lots of stuff - at LEAST half. Our kids are really good about recognizing that they don't play with something anymore and want to give it away, I'm not sure how it would have gone if they didn't want to give things away. What's left can be cleaned up easily in 5-10 minutes by them with no help. I give them, say, 30 minutes to clean their rooms. At the end of the time I go up there and whatever has not been cleaned up gets boxed up and they have to earn it back with extra chores or something else. The first few times they thought I was joking now they know not to try and call my bluff and are very good about putting their things away. It involved two garbage bags full of broken toys, several large boxes of donated items, and eight boxes of toys to rotate out (we have yet to bring any of them back out yet). 

I think a big part of the problem for you is that you give her 3 hours to clean. That's a lot of time. Think about when you have lots of time to do something, do you jump right up and do it or do you put it off?

If she has tons of stuff and you're not comfortable getting rid of it you could separate it into 'activity boxes'. If she wants to do a particular activity you can give her the corresponding box. She can have another on when the first has been completely picked up. This way even if she makes a mess and you have to clean it up it's never that big of a mess. 

[MrsH]

I think you've got some GREAT suggestions by pp's to help address the problem of keeping your dd's room clean.  We struggle with the same thing and reducing the amount of stuff up there does really help for us. 

As for what to do with that bag of stuff, I'd give her the opportunity to earn her things back if she wants them.  It could be by helping out with other chores (are there any she's particularly good at?  My DD will scrub a bathroom or mop the kitchen any day, but hates to clean her room), or by keeping her room tidy for a week, or maybe even something as simple as sitting down with you and agreeing to a plan for keeping her room neat using some of the ideas above.  Then also set a really clear consequence for if it's not tidied.  Does that mean that you tidy and she vacuums?  Or does it mean her stuff gets donated so you can still clean the room?  Does it mean she can't have a playdate so you and her can clean together?  It doesn't have to be punitive, but there does not to be a clear plan for if it doesn't get clean.

Another idea that might work is to take a couple of photos of her room in organized condition.  With each photo, make a short checklist (barbies in the bin, books on the shelf, stuffed animals on the bed) or whatever it might be.  That way, she has a very concrete image of what "clean" looks like, and the checklist gives her the directives.  If you put it in a plastic sleeve (like for a 3 ring binder) then you could even give her a dry-erase marker to check off each item as she does it.  That has helped for our family with the whole setting the table conundrum.  But again, I'd involve her in the creation of something like that, to make sure that she thinks it might actually help.

I do totally get how completely aggravating it is, but am always trying to remind myself that she's not doing it to be a pest, but instead is just feeling completely overwhelmed.  I may not understand why the particular task overwhelms her, but her actions clearly tell me that she is (in the case of my own DD, I mean).  When I manage to be gentle and supportive about it, we always get the task done, which is not the case when I express my extreme frustration.  Unfortunately the latter happens often.  Good luck, let us know what you end up doing and how it goes!

[texmati]

Originally Posted by mom2happy 

I try to get her to maintain it once it's clean, but it's a small room with tons of stuff. She gets inspired with an activity and can turn the room from clean and organized into a disaster in about 30 minutes.

I remember feeling so overwhelmed about cleaning my room and keeping it neat when I was growing up. I feel the same way about my house now. I would really work with her on making sure she *can't* messy up a clean room in 30 minutes. remove clutter, remove crap, etc. My sister could always keep her stuff neat, and I never could. I just needed more help, needed to be taught, and physically could not see, keep up with, or sort through the clutter.

For my 1yo son, (so really for me), I only have as many toys as will fit in the bin. Everything that's classified as a toy gets chucked in the bin. If it's un-binable, we return it to the store. I know I need a better solution eventually, but really this is the only way I can keep his play space neat for now.
 

[mom2happy]

Originally Posted by madskye 

I have a five year old who has a difficult time cleaning--even putting crayons back in the box is a struggle.

I do limit the amount of toys and stuff that are available.  It's not a punitive thing, but if I see her room starting to fill up with crap, I go in with a box and clean it out, carry the box up to my closet and wait to see if she ever needs/asks for any of those things.  If not, the box goes to garbage/goodwill in a month or so.

I have plastic bin drawers for all her stuff.  So, cleaning up is not hard.  She has a 3 drawer bin for Barbies and Polly Pockets.  She has a 3 drawer bin for all her crafts.  I don't care how she puts stuff in there (it can be stuffed or out of order) as long as it's in the bins.  She still dillies, but so far it works pretty well.  The bins are from Target, and they weren't too expensive.

One thing I do for myself is turn on the stereo and tell myself that I will clean up a room for the duration of a song.  I turn it up really loud and zoom around the room picking things up.  That might be fun for her, and help her speed up.

The music definitely helps, but sometimes she just gets lost in that and sits and sings inbetween calling me names

[mom2happy]

Originally Posted by Magella 

I also limit how many toys are available. At least a couple of times a year, we've gone into the kids' rooms and cleaned them out. Toys they rarely play with go into boxes and we store them away. Broken toys get tossed out. Now and then we'll purge stored toys and either donate or throw away old toys. Sometimes we'll rotate toys-if they want to take some out of storage, other toys go into storage. It really cuts down on the clutter. 

Another thing that helps is having the toys organized, so that each thing has a "home" and it's easy to put it there. 

One thing I'm sensitive to is how overwhelming a mess can be, and how hard it can be to know where to start. I know that if a room is really cluttered, I find myself standing in the middle of it not knowing what to do. For me, visually it's overwhelming. I have trouble making a plan. I can get "lost" in the mess, it's just hard for me to get started. I know it sounds silly, but it's really hard for me. I try to keep in mind that cleaning up can be hard for my kids, too. For my 7 year old, for example, it helps if I give her a specific thing to start with. It also helps her if she knows she doesn't have to clean the whole, giant, overwhelming, frustrating mess at once. She has a desk that she regularly (and quickly!) makes a big mess out of. When it's gotten really messy (either because she was extra busy or because I haven't been making sure she cleans it up every day), I'll tell her to start with one thing and only clean until she gets frustrated. Then she can take a break. She's far more willing to do it when she knows she doesn't have to tackle the entire thing all at once.

I also find that making cleaning up part of a consistent routine that I enforce really, really helps. If it's happening every day, at roughly the same time every day, it's more likely that they'll get it done and get it done quickly. Hands down, this has been the single most important and effective part of making sure this house stays reasonably neat and clean. It does take time to establish that routine and see it begin to work, and it does take effort to keep it up, but it really does help.

[EviesMom]

I've done the bag thing. Here what it means is she gets the bag of stuff to put away when she walks in the door. Maybe even just put it in her room. Everything else applies same as if it were still on the floor--no TV, helping me make dessert, etc until it's put away. Haven't had to do that in a little while though thankfully!

[mom2happy]

Originally Posted by elus0814 

We had the same problem. We solved it two ways. One, we went in their rooms, with the kids, and tossed, donated, or boxed up lots of stuff - at LEAST half. Our kids are really good about recognizing that they don't play with something anymore and want to give it away, I'm not sure how it would have gone if they didn't want to give things away. What's left can be cleaned up easily in 5-10 minutes by them with no help. I give them, say, 30 minutes to clean their rooms. At the end of the time I go up there and whatever has not been cleaned up gets boxed up and they have to earn it back with extra chores or something else. The first few times they thought I was joking now they know not to try and call my bluff and are very good about putting their things away. It involved two garbage bags full of broken toys, several large boxes of donated items, and eight boxes of toys to rotate out (we have yet to bring any of them back out yet). 

I think a big part of the problem for you is that you give her 3 hours to clean. That's a lot of time. Think about when you have lots of time to do something, do you jump right up and do it or do you put it off?

If she has tons of stuff and you're not comfortable getting rid of it you could separate it into 'activity boxes'. If she wants to do a particular activity you can give her the corresponding box. She can have another on when the first has been completely picked up. This way even if she makes a mess and you have to clean it up it's never that big of a mess. 

[mom2happy]

For some reason the quote isn't working and my responses got trashed. I forgot what I said but it was something like this:

Mrs H-

DD does have beautiful bins and shelving and her room is the epitome of an organized lay out. As far as a system I haven't known what could make it easier.

 That picture idea in the bins is a great idea. I will take the pictures tonight!

The checklist is also JUST HER SPEED. She has a control issue though, so I'll write it up sloppy and ask her if she wants to write a neater one and we can make copies.

Elus0814,

The boxing up and earning back with extra chores is something to think about. You know what my fear is with that though?

With the new baby I have not been able to stay on top of the kids 5 and 7 and the chores I wanted them to do every week. It's a crazy schedule and homework for the 7 yr old.

When I tell them they need to get the laundry from the dryer, clear the table, bring me a diaper...etc, they just do it. I have kind of been afraid they would associate "family work" as a way to gain if I use chores as a way to earn anything. Maybe it wouldn't mess with it, but I don't know.

Magella

Making too many things available is a lot of the reason. There is just too much stuff. I have to figure out a way to simplify this with out upsetting her too much or causing a major blow out. She gets very very angry and has impulse control problems. I x posted this in special needs too and I'm getting some help there. 

DD has always had a very hard time with any type of transition. Getting rid of things is really hard for her. She has been this way forever.

When she was two we needed a new oven. The one we had was from 1968 and was shot. Everyday for about a week she would pass by the new oven and cry for a little while.

She still remembers this and has brought up how sad it was.

She got over it, but this is how she is.

[Courtney-Ostaff]

I don't see why they need to be rewarded for family chores, just my 2 cents.

I will say that if she's a control freak, and I am too (a bit of Aspergers :), here's what would help me:

Not only a list, but a visual list, in the order in which you would clean.  All the drawers'bins/shelves/baskets should have pictures on them of what goes in them, and the way they should be put in there. Taking an actual picture of the clean room for her to check against is good.

For me, I start in a corner, and clean that corner.  Number the corners and have her start in corner 1.  I clean by putting everything in it's place, from highest to lowest in the room. E.g., books go on the bookshelves, then clothes are in drawers, and then boots on the floor. If it doesn't have a place in the room, then I have a pop-up hamper for stuff that needs to be put away out of the room.  Then I throw away all the trash, and clean the trash.  Then I sweep the floor, and if needed, mop.  She should be able to sweep and mop, albeit clumsily, at 7.  

Also, there should be a time limit, of, say, 30 minutes. If it's not done in 15 minutes, whatever's on the floor goes in storage for a specified period of time.  No excuses, no exceptions, period.  She'll throw a royal temper tantrum, but it's important to a) stick to your maxim, and b) ignore her temper tantrum.  You cannot, absolutely cannot, allow her to manipulate you into giving her attention for bad behavior.  Not to ignore her period, but ignore her temper tantrum.

I would highly recommend that she be allowed to have only one thing out at a time.  Once you're done with it, you put it back, and then get out something house. Just make it a house rule -- but you have to follow it too.

[Magella]

Originally Posted by mom2happy 

Magella

Making too many things available is a lot of the reason. There is just too much stuff. I have to figure out a way to simplify this with out upsetting her too much or causing a major blow out. She gets very very angry and has impulse control problems. I x posted this in special needs too and I'm getting some help there. 

DD has always had a very hard time with any type of transition. Getting rid of things is really hard for her. She has been this way forever.

When she was two we needed a new oven. The one we had was from 1968 and was shot. Everyday for about a week she would pass by the new oven and cry for a little while.

She still remembers this and has brought up how sad it was.

She got over it, but this is how she is.

My oldest has a very hard time with change as well. She used to have meltdowns if I'd move a single, small piece of furniture-it could bother her for days. She is a very anxious child, and change is just hard for her to deal with. I read your thread in special needs, and I think your dd's difficulty with change and transition is likely related to her anxiety. Kids who are anxious like the security of things remaining the same, and they seek control in order to feel secure. SPD can cause anxiety and/or worsen existing anxiety. Anxiety in kids often leads to irritability or explosiveness-the anxiety takes up so much of their energy that they just don't have the resources to cope with frustration or other challenges in better ways. In my experience, having an anxious child myself, you can't solve some of these difficult problems until you address the underlying problems of sensory issues and anxiety. The anxiety (and sensory issues) led to a cascade of behavior problems that really did not improve until we treated the anxiety. 

When my dd was your dd's age (and younger), I worried a lot about seeking professional help for her. I was afraid that whoever we saw would want to put her on meds first thing, and I didn't want that. I was afraid of meds. I was afraid she'd be "labeled" and that a label would follow her, causing people to treat her differently. I was afraid that if I disagreed with a therapist/psychologist/psychiatrist, that I'd have to do what they said anyway or they'd report me as being negligent. I was afraid of getting a dozen different diagnoses, and not getting any actual help. I was just paralyzed with fear, and it kept me from getting my dd help sooner. When I actually got help for her, I found that none of my fears came to pass. We've seen 3 therapists (one moved away, we lost one due to change in insurance) and not one suggested medication as the first thing to try. In fact, only once did anyone bring up the possibility of medication in a "we can explore it if you think she might need it" kind of way. I will say that dd "clicked" more with one of the therapists in particular, and that is important. 

The second therapist we saw was great, except that at one point she wanted us to try a strategy that I was very uncomfortable with and felt would actually frustrate dd more. I was nervous but I went in at the next session and explained why I didn't want to go that route, and what I'd prefer to focus on--and she was extremely helpful. We ended up working out a different, fantastic strategy that helped dd a lot. I was never pressured to do anything, by any therapist, that I was really uncomfortable with. I will say that I also did need to be open-minded and willing to learn and try new things myself, stretching my comfort zone a little bit, and that worked out really well for dd. 

As far as diagnoses go, across all three therapists the diagnoses remained stable (well, at some point along the way dd "lost" a diagnosis, which is great). But really, the diagnoses didn't matter that much. No one was treating "anxiety disorder" or any other diagnosis, they were helping my individual dd with her individual problems. All of them followed a cognitive-behavioral approach, which is really the best approach to helping a child learn to cope with anxiety. My dd's anxiety diagnosis and her Tourette's Syndrome have come up at school-all of her teachers have known about both of these issues, and many of her peers have known about her TS. Her diagnoses and issues have never negatively impacted her at school. 

The bottom line: I am so, so glad we sought professional help for dd. It helped us identify what she needed, and how to best help her. It allowed us to help her feel better and function better. Getting help also gave us a source of support. It helped dd feel better to know that she wasn't alone in being challenged by anxiety, that lots of people face the kinds of issues she faces. My only regret, looking back, is not getting help sooner. Help was a relief for us all. Dd is doing very well now and is glad to know that if she ever needs it again, therapy is available to her. 

This link has some great information about anxiety and treatment: http://www.worrywisekids.org/ A great book for you to read is Freeing Your Child From Anxiety by Tamar Chansky. A book that my dd found helpful was a workbook we used together called What To Do When You Worry Too Much by Dawn Huebner.

My dd was evaluated by psychologists who work exclusively with children and who follow a cognitive behavioral approach (which is the best approach for anxiety, and focuses on helping kids identify anxiety and develop the skills they need to cope with it effectively). Due to her not-quite-diagnosable sensory issues, she was also evaluated by an occupational therapist (I do think that she out grew a lot of sensory stuff, and that if we'd taken her for this evaluation earlier in life she would have met the criteria for SPD). You can find referrals to good practitioners in your area through your pediatrician, or through other parents (for example, some of the special education parent councils in area school districts keep a list of practitioners recommended by parents). We found the OT by recommendation from some parents that my sister worked with. You can also interview practitioners, getting a feel for their approach to see if it might be a good fit. If a practitioner isn't working out, you can let them know it isn't working and find someone new. 

[cyclamen]

I wanted to pop in here and recommend "Smart but Scattered" by Peg Dawson and Richard Guare.  It's all about helping your kid improve their executive function skills including stuff like organization and task management, emotional control, and flexibility.   I've found it helpful reading for myself - it's full of practical steps.  (My DD is only 18mo, but I remember being the kid who couldn't stay on task, couldn't clean her room, etc.)

[One_Girl]

I used to feel very overwhelmed by the clutter as a child and it also took me a long time.  Having one box to put everything in and a garbage can in the room to put paper scraps in helped.  Have you tried just letting her take her time and not letting yourself get pulled into an argument.  My dd hates being directed but if I just tell her what she needs to do and don't nag she will do it fairly quickly.  If I sit over her or keep coming back to direct her she will engage me in a negative cycle of protest, whining, and refusal.  It doesn't take very many times of letting her take several hours to do a fifteen minute job before she realizes that I don't care how long it takes and I am not engaging and that helps free her up from seeking negative attention so she can do the fifteen minute job in fifteen minutes.

[texmati]

Originally Posted by cyclamen 

I wanted to pop in here and recommend "Smart but Scattered" by Peg Dawson and Richard Guare.  It's all about helping your kid improve their executive function skills including stuff like organization and task management, emotional control, and flexibility.   I've found it helpful reading for myself - it's full of practical steps.  (My DD is only 18mo, but I remember being the kid who couldn't stay on task, couldn't clean her room, etc.)

Thank you for this book rec! I can tell that I would have benefitted from something like this as a kid.

[mom2happy]

Originally Posted by texmati 

Originally Posted by cyclamen 

I wanted to pop in here and recommend "Smart but Scattered" by Peg Dawson and Richard Guare.  It's all about helping your kid improve their executive function skills including stuff like organization and task management, emotional control, and flexibility.   I've found it helpful reading for myself - it's full of practical steps.  (My DD is only 18mo, but I remember being the kid who couldn't stay on task, couldn't clean her room, etc.)

Thank you for this book rec! I can tell that I would have benefitted from something like this as a kid.

Thanks, I put in a request for my library to get it. Maybe it will have some help for me too.