Social skills class

[JollyGG]

My son is having some behavioral issues this year in class mostly due to not paying attention, rushing through work, etc. At first the teacher assumed these were academic problems, but we have convinced her (with the help of some outside academic testing) that these are behavioral issues and not academic ones. I do feel that he is being under challenged in class but the school doesn't see that and I'm probably not going to get them to while he's still working on behavior issues.

One of his real areas of struggle is group work in class. He has a really difficult time participating and following the group according to his teacher. In an email this week she said that during one group activity he was not on the same page as the other kids and was playing under a chair. When the other kids got upset with him he didn't understand why. I did explain why the other kids were upset at home and he understands that it was distracting and made them think he wasn't paying attention. Because he just didn't seem to get why the other kids would be bothered by this behavior the teacher has suggested that he attend a social skills group with the school counselor.

My initial reaction to this idea is rather negative. Intellectually I think well, maybe he does need some explicit instruction on social rules. But when I parse out my gut reaction I feel like he does have some issues in situations like that but he's not seriously socially lacking. He has several friends in class. I think I just don't want to feel like he is messed up enough to need something like this. I also am very wary of inviting the school counselor into our life. I feel like that is often a path to the schools looking for issues that really just don't exist. I also wonder what the dynamic of the class is. Would he get anything out of a social skills class filled with other students who are dealing with much more serious problems than he has.

But if he really does need the help and if it does make his interactions with his classmates easier shouldn't I want that?

My son is 7 years old, in 3rd grade, he skipped 1st. He had a horrible teacher who blamed all classroom issue on the skip last year and didn't work with him on any issues. This years teacher is much better but I think inhearated a lot of the issues from last years teacher with my son.

Anyone's child do social skills classes? How did it go? How serious were the issues before going?

[orangecanoe]

Playing under a chair in third grade is outside of expected behavior obviously. A social skills group could be a really low pressure way to get an idea of the types of scenarios he is having trouble with. It will also uncover areas of strength and his ability to make and keep friends will likely help him navigate some of the activities he does with other students in the group.

I would really dial back your negativity that he is somehow "messed up." I know it is hard to hear, but sometimes it's just a quirk and asynchrony. Needing explicit instruction in the social arena is just who he is. Getting that for him now will be hugely beneficial down the road. For my dd, working with her on social/emotional stuff gives her an inner dialogue to call upon in challenging situations.

We aren't doing one through school, but have done one at a therapy center that was music therapy based. That might also be a short term option for you guys. I'm thinking though that the group at school will make him feel less singled out for his behavior being that he'll be among a group learning the same skills, yk?

[loraxc]

I geuss the only thing that concerns me here is that he was skipped. Might the school be looking for excuses to unskip him? Other than that--if this were my child, I'd be upset at first (ow, my kid has issues) but then I think I would be happy to let it proceed. Couldn't HURT, could it? And might help. But then I do have some social concerns for DD (who has friends, but is socially immature, IMO).

[bec]

My 4th grader sees the social worker at her school for social skills.  She is not my gifted kid, and she is on an IEP for other learning disabilities (regarding her progress in math).  When we were putting the IEP together, it was very easy to throw the social work on there.  She had some problems in 3rd grade (similar to what your son is dealing with), where she was not on task (for whatever reason), and classmates would get impatient with her.  This has been a very low key and casual group setting for her, where she gets to work with other kids in a supervised, and guided manner.  It has helped her tremendously in 4th grade.  She is a lot more confident, and seems to understand what the social cues are from other kids much better.  There is really no negativity associated with it. It has improved her self esteem and confidence.

[LynnS6]

My gifted 4th grader (no skip) has done social skills groups twice. They're pretty low key and I think they help him. He learns really well through explicit instruction, and he's a bit 'young' for his age socially (he's got a late April birthday, and is just not that strong at social stuff). Ds is not severely socially lacking, just a little. The other kids like him, and he rarely complains about kids at school. But there was a time last winter when he chose to read in the library rather than play outside because he didn't know how to enter the groups to play. He also doesn't really have any good friends at school. I'm hoping the current social skills group he's doing will help with that.

If you think  your son would benefit, I would try it. I'm not sure I understand the reluctance to have the school counselor in your life. What are you afraid of? I think that's the piece you need to look at.

[JollyGG]

The BTDT are really helping. Not commenting much just yet as I'm still processing but wanted to let you guys know I'm reading.

[Linda on the move]

One of my DDs is both gifted and on the autism spectrum. The school social worker was a lifesaver for us last year and I love her to bits. Our school didn't offer social skills class, so our DD did hers through a private agency. Since insurance didn't cover it, we spent hundreds of dollars for it, and it was one of the best things we've done for her. It was worth every penny. As far as the other kids in the ss class, just ask. My DD's class was targeted to kids with a certain IQ range and with a certain set of social problems. They worked a lot on how to read social cues, which your son really needs to work on.

I think that processing the news that your son has some problems is the next step for you. His behavior isn't appropriate, and if he doesn't overcome it, he will get messages over and over from his peers that he is not acting OK. You kinda have to figure out a way to accept that before you can really help him with it.

After you make your peace with the news that he needs a little extra help learning a certain set of skills, let him have all the help the school can give him. If he were behind on some other set of skills, wouldn't you let him have extra help?

[moominmamma]

I know a now-9-year-old boy who sounds very much like your ds. He is unschooled, and his family is quite close to ours. I've "taught" him in homeschool co-op groups for years, give him a half-hour private violin lesson every week for the past three and a half years, and teach a variety of violin group classes and ensembles of which he is a part. His behaviour when playing with my kids, in violin group class, at group homeschool activities and (occasionally) in violin lessons has often been a little "out there." Lying under tables, not contributing to or supporting co-operative activities, talking too loud, trying to dominate discussions and railroad others into following his agenda, getting in people's personal space, using body-language that is viewed as negative. 

For the past year and a half his parents and I have put priority on explicitly teaching him expected social behaviour. During playdates, before activities, at violin lessons -- we often talk in detail about social behaviour. For instance prior to a recent violin group performance during which he had 22 bars of rests and would be standing on stage while other members of the ensemble played, I went through with him in detail what to do with his face and his body in order not to detract from the audience's attention and enjoyment. Standing quietly, looking attentive with his gaze straight ahead and slightly down, neither smiling nor frowning, not moving either his body or his instrument. I didn't need to do this teaching with any of the other kids from age 5 on up; they had intuited all this through observation and previous experience. But I knew this kid would need it -- and he responded beautifully. Because he's so bright, he learns quickly and easily when taught, and he truly appreciates the teaching because he discovered that without it people tend to read a bad attitude into his behaviour and respond to him negatively. My kids also find him much less "challenging" to be around since we started this approach and are now far more willing to host him for play-dates and hang out with him. They were friends with him before, but now they enjoy spending time with him much more.

So I know this isn't a social skills class experience, but I just wanted to give this example of how systematic explicit teaching of group social skills has transformed one young boy and helped others to see the goodness in him more easily and respond to him more positively.

Miranda

[JollyGG]

Actually moominmamma your post highlight one of my big concerns. My son's social issues are no were near what you describe for you son's friend. In a situation about the concert he would have needed a reminder that he needed to be good during the other kids solo but he wouldn't have needed explicit instructions on what that looked like. A quick, "don't fidget, and be good" would have worked. He has no issues with things like speaking volume or personal space. He's quite happy to let others lead in social situations and happily goes along and rarely ever dominates or is overbearing (basically less that you would see in other kids in his grade). I guess the kid you describe is who I picture needing a social skills class, not my son who has some mild issues but for the most part doesn't have any major problems. Basically he gets bored or overwhelmed and checks out and does his own thing instead of participating in class on occasion. He doesn't like being the center of attention so rarely participates in group work.

Loraxc I think you may have hit on one of my major areas of concern. I think I have plenty of baggage from dealing with last years teacher as well. She actually did suggest that he be de-accelerated despite the academic work being appropriate and his friendships in class being very positive. So I get a bit defensive now when someone suggests he's behind or needs extra help, because I feel like they are saying he doesn't belong where he is. But I think that is just last years teacher in the back of my mind talking. This years teacher has even explicitly told my son in one meeting we were all in that he should be in the grade he's in.

As for why I don't want the counselor in our lives, I think that is a largely cultural thing. I was actualy surprised that more people didn't understand that concern. I'm from a part of the Midwest that is very private, somewhat distrustful of institutions, and very independent.

I really appreciate your perspective bec, LynnS6, Linda on the move, and orangecanoe. Hearing about those whose kids have been through this is helpful.

I have emailed the teacher back and asked her to set up a meeting with the counselor to discuss the idea further.

[joensally]

I would ask the teacher if she has more examples that lead her to thinking this is a good strategy.  IME, my kids sometimes behave differently when I'm not there to give them cues or reminders like "no fidgeting" or the like.

If you come to think that it might be a good idea, I would think of it as scaffolding.  He may need a boost in his group skills, that's all.

I've found that good language to use when debriefing is "expected" and '"unexpected."  They're not judging words, they just explain why others may have reacted positively or negatively to something.

We did some social skills training with DS.  He's EG, a very divergent thinker and has sensory issues.  He's got great "social skills" when he's not overwhelmed by his internal complexity - great at give and take, sharing, listening, social norms blah blah blah.  But sometimes he's just preoccupied by his internal ideas or overwhelmed sensorially and isn't as attuned to others.  He's also pretty sensitive - to others' speech and emotions. He still cries at most movies and can be relied upon to stand up for the underdog in social situations.  We used the Social Thinking/Winner curriculum as it refined his understanding of social norms and provided him with a structured way to understand the motives and personalities of others as well as himself.  He will always be a bit of an odd duck if he stays true to himself, and giving him more tools to navigate his social world is an important advantage we gave him through social skills group and social coaching at home.

[JollyGG]

Originally Posted by joensally 

I would ask the teacher if she has more examples that lead her to thinking this is a good strategy.  IME, my kids sometimes behave differently when I'm not there to give them cues or reminders like "no fidgeting" or the like.

If you come to think that it might be a good idea, I would think of it as scaffolding.  He may need a boost in his group skills, that's all.

I've found that good language to use when debriefing is "expected" and '"unexpected."  They're not judging words, they just explain why others may have reacted positively or negatively to something.

We did some social skills training with DS.  He's EG, a very divergent thinker and has sensory issues.  He's got great "social skills" when he's not overwhelmed by his internal complexity - great at give and take, sharing, listening, social norms blah blah blah.  But sometimes he's just preoccupied by his internal ideas or overwhelmed sensorially and isn't as attuned to others.  He's also pretty sensitive - to others' speech and emotions. He still cries at most movies and can be relied upon to stand up for the underdog in social situations.  We used the Social Thinking/Winner curriculum as it refined his understanding of social norms and provided him with a structured way to understand the motives and personalities of others as well as himself.  He will always be a bit of an odd duck if he stays true to himself, and giving him more tools to navigate his social world is an important advantage we gave him through social skills group and social coaching at home.

The bolded part sounds a lot like my son.

What's funny is just the other morning he made a comment that was more socially aware then I was until well into college. His class exchanged names and had to fill a box with things like compliments, stories, and pictures for their box buddy. We put his box buddy's name on the outside of the box and he took it to school the other day and he was briefly worried that she would learn who it was from when she saw him come in with it and they don't exchange until today. Then he made a comment that she would be busy with her own stuff and likely wouldn't even be paying attention to him. Which is true, they all had to bring their boxes in yesterday, plus something to sell for an economics project, plus all their regular stuff. I think all the kids had all they could handle getting themselves and their own stuff where it needed to go.

I think I also may have trouble identifying normal behaviors from abnormal ones. My husband comments that the issues my son does have are ones that are very familiar to him as he had many of the same problems as a kid. My son also often reminds me a bit of my brother who is PG and has always been a bit of an oddity.

You are right that he may behave very differently without me there to give behavior prompts and such that I probably don't even think about.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by JollyGG 

As for why I don't want the counselor in our lives, I think that is a largely cultural thing. I was actualy surprised that more people didn't understand that concern. I'm from a part of the Midwest that is very private, somewhat distrustful of institutions, and very independent.

I was raised very much like that. I had to get over it to help my DD. I simple cannot do everything for her/ be everything for her, and she DOES need more help than most kids.

It sounds like there have been issues before this school year. Schools  only have so many options -- they can treat the situation as if they child needs more help and support, or they can treat the situation as if the child needs more discipline. When your child's behavior is inappropriate for his age, what do you want them to do? Talk to him, work with him, and help him learn more appropriate behavior, or punish him?  If you want them to talk to him and work with him, than that's what the counselor is for. If you block off that option, you leave with with not much to do except punish him.

[JollyGG]

Never mind - I'm being crabby and oversensitive.

To sum up I'm working very hard at trusting his current teacher and his principle. I think they are trying very hard. But a lot of the problems he's having stem from a lack of confidence. A lack of confidence that I feel was in large part caused by last years teacher. It is difficult to put your faith in an institution that failed him last year.

Edited by JollyGG - 12/21/10 at 2:13pm

[LauraLoo]

Originally Posted by JollyGG 

To sum up I'm working very hard at trusting his current teacher and his principle. I think they are trying very hard. But a lot of the problems he's having stem from a lack of confidence. A lack of confidence that I feel was in large part caused by last years teacher. It is difficult to put your faith in an institution that failed him last year.

If you can, consider an outside resource -- someone outside of the school.  It might help you bridge the gap of placing all of your eggs, so to speak, in the school system.   As good as our current school is, I find that communication is slow and follows a certain protocol that I find annoying and less than helpful.  And while I understand the constraints that our school operates under, it is too frustrating to me.  

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by JollyGG 
To sum up I'm working very hard at trusting his current teacher and his principle. I think they are trying very hard. But a lot of the problems he's having stem from a lack of confidence. A lack of confidence that I feel was in large part caused by last years teacher.

social skills class is great for confidence.

Even if part of his problem stems from the way his teacher handled the situation last year, you still have to figure out how to deal the problem now. *why* the problem exist doesn't really matter as much as *how* to constructively move forward.   If they wanted to continue to do the exact same thing, I could see why you wouldn't trust them. But they are suggesting that you guys try something totally different.

(It sounds like your child had some behavior problems to start with, they were handled in ways that didn't help, and now they are worse.)

[JollyGG]

Actually my child had absolutely no reported behavior issue prior to having a teacher who disproved of grade skipping in general so decided to start looking for issues because she was determined to find them.

Other parents who volunteered frequently in the classroom reported just as much dissatisfaction with the teacher as I had last year. Some of the parents were parents to model students, and they also felt she was harmful and horrible. Actually the teacher was such an ineffective and downright horrible teacher that she left the profession.

I don't think my son is to blame for any of what is going on. He is actually a quite amazing kid. I reject the insinuation that this is either my son's or my fault.

He may very well benefit from social skills class and we are looking at all our options. I however don't feel that being protective of my child, his privacy, and taking a bit of time to evaluate what is best for him in any way means that I'm not putting his best interest first. Basically, you seem to have issues with the fact that I don't automatically trust his counselor.

So, no, there were not existing issues that two separate teachers have reported. There is one teacher trying to deal with issues that another teacher created. Issues that the counselor and principle allowed to happen.

I actually take part of the blame for things getting to the point they are at as well. I initially was 100% completely behind his teacher at the beginning of last year. If I had considered earlier in the year that some of the issues may have been her problems and not his he may have more confidence and be able to participate with his classmates more effectively. Which is one of the reasons that my son is still at the school. I'm willing to give the school the same benefit of the doubt that I give myself and realize it took me a while to realize what was going on it may have taken them a while as well. But that doesn't mean I have to have blind faith in them.

I'm learning from my mistake and am no longer quite as quick to put that sort of faith in his school to accurately understand my child and do what is best for him.

Originally Posted by Linda on the move 

(It sounds like your child had some behavior problems to start with, they were handled in ways that didn't help, and now they are worse.)

[VisionaryMom]

I would want to know more about what a social skills class looks like before I could decide. I could see my son, who lacks social awareness, finding a class like that more confusing, particularly if the instructor deals with issues as if they are black & white.

I also share your distrust of school counselors. If you think your son could benefit from a social skills class, then I would look for something outside of the school. I personally wouldn't want my child involved with the school's counseling/guidance office unless it were absolutely necessary. We would just seek outside help. 

To me, the problem you mentioned - being under the chair while doing group work - is one that I've seen from a number of gifted boys. In fact, if I asked my husband, I'm pretty sure he'd tell me that he did that. His favorite teacher ever was one who allowed him to sit in the back row so he could stand while working. So while it's not appropriate to be under the desk, I also don't think it's unheard of, especially given his age and academic ability. Though I never crawled under a desk, I abhorred group work. I still do. I go to work and shut my office door behind me. I don't like interruptions or to work in groups, and it's okay. My life has turned out okay despite that dislike, but I certainly had teachers who acted as if the world would end because (in my case) I didn't wait for the other students to determine the answers (at a painful crawling pace) but just wrote them down myself. I was tagged as a bad group work person just like your son, but the real problem is the meaning that is attached to it. All of that is a really long way to say that if he's primarily having problems during group work, I wouldn't do a social skills class. I'd just chat about how to get through it and move on.

[joensally]

Jolly, I think having a larger discussion with the teacher as to exactly what she's seeing would be really beneficial.

A number of posters in the thread have shared that they've seen social skills classes work for their kids or kids they know.  It's not something to be scared of, or to take as an insult to your child.  Not every kid gets everything easily, and social skills cover such a range of issues and contexts, and the rules are largely unspoken and even changeable.

I would talk to his teacher when they're back in school.  Ask for concrete descriptions of her concerns, and really question if his behaviours are within norms.  I've seen students where they're on a sticker chart for behaviour, but the standards are higher than they are for a "typical" kid.  Maybe the teacher's expectations are unrealistic.  Or maybe he does need some help with knowing what's expected and not expected in a classroom.

If you come to believe that he would benefit from some social skills boosting, discuss what the content and approach are.  If you're not comfortable, you may find it outside of school.  I personally don't involve school counsellors too much/at all in my kids' lives as I just don't want that info on their files, and frankly feel that I get better service privately.

[Naomi]

My gifted fourth grader is in a social skills class, and was in one last year as well.  It's been extremely helpful to her.  The school counselors do not ask us nosy questions about our life -- mostly they observe her and track her behavior, to see whether the problematic stuff is becoming less of an issue.

I would have gotten a lot out of a social skills group as a child, despite the fact that I did have friends and was excelling academically.

[Linda on the move]

never mind.