Are these red flags? Or just normal 8-yr-old stuff?

[LaurieG]

This is long - I appologize - but it is fresh on my mind and has been weighing for so long I just want to get it down.

When DS1 was 3 I remember being determined to talk with his pediatrician about his angry outbursts.  And then in the end I opted against it, thinking he was just a highly emotional child who needed some time to mature and learn to control his emotions better.

Fast forward to today.  We just returned home from DS2's basketball game.  When we were leaving for the game DS1 couldn't find his game system (still - it had been over a week since we had seen it).  I suggested a place it might be, and when he checked it was in fact there.  But when he got out to the car and turned it on he found the batteries were dead.  Thus began a 10 minute yelling, crying temper tantrum over this issue.

At the game DD and DS1 were hungry.  We made several trips to the concession stand but the line was always very long and I didn't want to miss the game so we didn't get anything.  On each of these trips DS1 said he wanted ice cream and I said no because I didn't want him to have sweets right before lunch.  I suggested several more acceptable options but DS1 stuck to the ice cream theme, trying to negotiate, bully, or otherwise talk me into changing my mind which I did not.

After the game the line was shorter so we stopped to get something to tide us over til we got home since we had not yet had lunch and it was late.  DD wanted fruit snacks which I agreed to (although I agree with DS1's point that fruit snacks are sugary - but DD has food allergies and that is about all she could have and I would have agreed to fruit snacks for DS1 if he had asked), DS2 easily agreed to Ritz Bitz.  DS1 was still holding out for the ice cream.  When we were next to order and he saw his time was running out he made a switch to candy and then to a slushy, both of which I nixed on the same grounds.  I ordered him Ritz Bitz.  He proceeded to scream, cry, push me (not hard but still), etc among the dozens of people present- DS1 did not seem to notice or care that his behavior might be expected for a 2-yr-old but is completely unacceptable for an 8-yr-old.  After a very stern talking to he settled on simply a loud cry (his cry sounds similar to a scream though) the rest of the way to the car and for most of the ride home, intermixed with loudly stating "ITs NOT FAIR!"

Now this example is extreme - he generally only acts like this if he is very tired or sick and he is both now.  But temper tantrums, extreme difficulty with transitions, very concrete inflexible thinking, an over interest (compared to other kids I know) in what is fair - that's my kid all the time.  Temper tantrums occur frequently over screen time at our house because we have a rule of 90 minutes but if the adult present doesn't force him to stop at precisely 90 minutes it appears to him that we don't intend to enforce the rule and therefore there is no boundary in his mind.

In addition he seems completely unaware of his body in space at times - stepping on things (like my computer for example) and not seeming to notice.  Although he plays sports and is not obviously significantly worse than other kids.

In school he does fine.  He's actually been identified as gifted by his teacher which I think may play in to this as from what I've read some of these traits are pretty common gifted kid stuff.  Socially nobody has expressed any concerns - he gets along with peers at school - but he almost never initiates play dates or other opportunities to interact with other kids and he doesn't seem to care.  When someone asks him to play he has a good time but he doesn't follow it up with his own offer.  Sometimes a school friend of his will call on the phone and it bugs him to have to stop what he is doing to talk to this boy (again with the transitions).  He has never once talked to me about a social situation that hurt his feelings or weighed on his mind that didn't involve DH or I (we seem to be able to hurt his feelings easily without trying at all, but everyone else is off the hook).

Checklists for Asperger's do not seem to fit him overall, although some traits fit.  DD is at risk for NVLD and my NVLD books sometimes really sound like him except that he is great at math.  He doesn't struggle with learning at school in any way.

Sometimes I think there is a real issue here that we need help to deal with.  And other times I think its just variations of normal personality.  Can anyone offer some perspective?

[Tigerchild]

I spend 2 hours a week 2nd and 3rd grade classrooms.

To be really blunt, I think you may have too high of expectations for your son.  Boy do I know how embarassing and OMG people will think I'm a horrible parent (and ignorant people will think that) that can make you feel when they pull that crap in public.

But there are many kids who do.  Normal kids.

Your child does not have Aspergers because they try to manipulate you and are a real jerk in public or have a tantrum.  In one of my kid's 3rd grade class, different kids have a meltdown on a fairly regular basis.  You have the hormones kicking in, amongst other things.  These kids LOOK like big kids, so it's easy to get impatient and wonder why they're not Big Kiddish (read:  more like adults) but really--they are still very much children.

I have to check myself often to not get exasperated with my 8 (soon to be 9) year old DD.  I see her as older than her younger brothers and expect more from her (even though she's only 17 months older).  At 8 she is less than an inch away from being 5 feet tall and has a developing (mildly but obvious) body.   Since I am close to most of the children in her class (they've been together 3 years now, most of them), I see other kids having the same kind of outbursts, whining, ect.  I hear more stories about them from the moms (also I'm close to them).  Even with that kind of social support and KNOWING that other kids do indeed do those things, I often find it hard to deal with DD because it's not cute, and something in my brain expects more now that I can't pick her up and move her when I want. I expect her to be a preteen, sometimes.  She is not.  She is 8.

In other words, the behavior you described seems fairly typical (though I'm sure many people here will pipe in with stories of their angelic children, which is fine...I'm sure there are many who DON'T behave like that too--just saying that almost all the kids I know I've witnessed that behavior and ALL supposedly do it from time to time as per their moms in our very nice class with nice parents and nice families).  This doesn't mean you should rule out any developmental concerns that you have, but...I think you may be over thinking this a bit.

It's embarassing.  When my kids act like that it's hard not to want to slap them (for the record, I don't).  But...I think it's pretty normal.  Unless I know 48 weirdo kids and families out there--which I suppose is possible but I doubt it.

[GuildJenn]

I wouldn't make a decision based on a child you described as tired and sick who was being taken to a noisy, crowded long-lined basketball game.

For the screen time thing I'd just get a timer.

With the body space and social unawareness...I have a nephew who was like this, who is now 11. As he's maturing I can see some balance coming in. He is blunt, sometimes to the point of rudeness, and doesn't have all the social filters his sibs have. But he is still a normal, lovely boy. He's also developing some passions and a talent and I can totally see him being a fantastic entrepreneur in a particular area - some of that 'don't care' attitude can be help, as long as it's combined with basic social knowledge. He needs more coaching than his sibs or maybe even your average child but it's not pathological - just where he's a bit weaker.

But if it's a pattern you've wondered about for a long time, why not get him evaluated, or at least talk to his teacher and doctor and see what they think?

[mamazee]

The body space awareness I think is especially common.  They're growing quickly and are not aware of their body space because it isn't static.  I get bothered by how clumsy my 8-year-old dd is, but it's just how things are for now.

She's generally good in public at this age, but she does have her moments.  If she isn't feeling well, or is hungry, or tired, particularly so.  And she still has trouble sitting still through something as long as a basketball game.

It's also very very common for kids this age to be very concerned about justice and fairness.

[LaurieG]

Thanks for both of your perspective. 

Yes, this is something I have been wondering about for years - pretty much all of DS's life.  Since he is our oldest at first I thought it was my expectations that needed changing.  And in some cases I think that was true.  But there are still areas where DS1 seems to be so far behind DS2, and even DD in some cases (like being able to empathize with someone else, for example). 

I have planned to bring it up to the pediatrician at every annual check up since he was 3 but each time I talk myself out of it.  I don't want to discuss all these concerns in front of DS and it really fluctuates day to day on whether it seems worthy of a special phone call to the doc.  I've thought about having him evaluated because of the gifted thing but the school doesn't offer gifted education anyway so I'm not sure how useful that portion would be, and it is a significant out of pocket expense unless there is a concern for pathology.  I did have him tested for food intolerances (he has some health issues that I thought might be food related and I thought some of the behaviors could be linked as well) but there was not a very significant difference on the elimination diet.  He started off really happy and cheerful and as time went on his behavior got worse and worse as he become more frustrated with the restrictions. 

[serenbat]

there is a current post in "gifted" section right now that applies to your child (just a year different) and you may want to get feedback from gifted parents as well

[LynnS6]

Have you looked into sensory issues? You might want to read The Out of Sync Child and see if that has any resonance with you. I've got a child with sensory issues, and he was late in developing empathy and some social skills, and needed occupational therapy precisely because he didn't know where his body was in space (and he was hypersensitive to a lot of things). But then again, my child without sensory issues also doesn't seem to know where her body is in space sometimes, so I don't know how much an issue that is. Kids with sensory processing disorder do have trouble with self-regulation, especially when their systems are overwhelmed (sick, hungry).

If he doesn't have sensory processing disorder, he might be a bit hypersensitive. The Highly Sensitive Child might be a good read for you too.

In my experience, that sort of public tantrum is unusual (but not unheard of) for an 8 year old. Usually they can hold it together better, so it would be a mild concern to me. But I think it would be mild, as he was sick and hungry. Heck, my 86 year old dad gets unreasonable when he's hungry, and dh and I had a fight last week when I was sick and hungry.

[4Marmalade]

My 8 year old ds sounds similar.  Very inflexible, anxious, prone to meltdowns, difficulty with transitions, emotional and sensitive.  Over time we have been struggling more as he was becoming more aggressive and he doesn't seem to be maturing as well as his peers.  I have read numerous books, articles, etc... but we just seemed to be stuck.  I can welcome his personality but when the entire family is affected by his constant need for control and dramatics we need to change something. We recently sought some outside help and he was evaluated.  We were told that he does indeed have some anxiety and sensory issues which could very well be leading to his need for control over every situation.  I was pretty confident of that before the evaluation but it was nice to get confirmation and a more concrete plan on how we are going to help ds. 

[Anastasiya]

My cousin was just like your son (lack of empathy, outbursts and tantrums that didn't seem age appropriate, lack of bodily awareness, overanalyzing rules, etc., AND he still was great at sports) and he was finally diagnosed with Asperger's around 14 years old.

[chaimom]

I know you're looking for a different answer, but I'd be concerned about it, if I were you.  Yes, there are other kids who act like that, but not many.  I have twin 8 year old boys in 3rd grade, both gifted, and they haven't thrown a tantrum like you describe since they were 2.  Tantrums are not a gifted issue-- intensity can be, but in the gifted kids I know, including my boys, intensity means focus, not tantrums. There are a couple of kids in the HG class one of my boys is in that have behavior issues and they are gifted, but 2E.  One has oppositional defiance disorder and another has aspergers.  I am NOT saying your child has either of those conditions, but it sounds like you need some help dealing with your child's outbursts and tantrums.  I can't even imagine my child hitting me, even lightly.  It would never happen. If you've been worried about it for this long, I think you should trust your gut and see if there's something more  you can be doing to help your son.   What you're doing now is not working. You're not looking for a label, you're looking for help in dealing with behavior that's not OK. Talk to your physician and see about getting recommend for an evaluation.  Maybe he has sensory issues or maybe he just needs different consequences for behaving like that.  

[sunnygir1]

I have a niece who will be 8 in April.  She can NOT handle it when her older brother or younger cousin gets something or gets to do something and she doesn't.  She can't handle birthday parties because it is hard for her to see the other kid get all the gifts -- I suppose there is an over-stimulation aspect to this too.  She is a happy, healthy, normal child who does well in school and socially.  I don't know how much she initiates activities with friends, though.  Maybe it's a little early for them to be doing a lot of that without prompting from parents?  She doesn't throw yelling fits (it's not really her personality) but she will sulk and cry quietly.  She will be silent, sullen, and unhappy for half an hour or more.  Although it is unpleasant, I haven't thought for a second that it was abnormal, and neither has anyone else in our family to my knowledge.

I think if you're worried you should look into it and get him (and you) the appropriate help.

Hang in there, mama.

[One_Girl]

Originally Posted by chaimom 

I know you're looking for a different answer, but I'd be concerned about it, if I were you.  Yes, there are other kids who act like that, but not many.  I have twin 8 year old boys in 3rd grade, both gifted, and they haven't thrown a tantrum like you describe since they were 2.  Tantrums are not a gifted issue-- intensity can be, but in the gifted kids I know, including my boys, intensity means focus, not tantrums. There are a couple of kids in the HG class one of my boys is in that have behavior issues and they are gifted, but 2E.  One has oppositional defiance disorder and another has aspergers.  I am NOT saying your child has either of those conditions, but it sounds like you need some help dealing with your child's outbursts and tantrums.  I can't even imagine my child hitting me, even lightly.  It would never happen. If you've been worried about it for this long, I think you should trust your gut and see if there's something more  you can be doing to help your son.   What you're doing now is not working. You're not looking for a label, you're looking for help in dealing with behavior that's not OK. Talk to your physician and see about getting recommend for an evaluation.  Maybe he has sensory issues or maybe he just needs different consequences for behaving like that.  

I agree with this.  There aren't a lot of kids that age still pushing their moms even when they are upset and very hungry.  I think you should also sit him down and ask him why he thinks it is okay to push you and not his teacher in a calm curious tone, sometimes you can get good information about what is going on from questions like this because kids are often very honest about what is going on and it may help you see which direction you need to take your search for help in.  If he says something that leads you to believe he knows it is unacceptable at school but you seem fine with being pushed then I suggest seeking someone who can help you work on the behavior aspect.  If he says he just doesn't know what to do or he just doesn't know I think you should seek some help for him in identifying his feelings and letting them out in more appropriate ways.  A diabetes check may also be something to consider. 

[LaurieG]

First I want to say again how much I appreciate everyone's perspective on this.  I am reading and processing every thought.

Originally Posted by One_Girl 

Originally Posted by chaimom 

I know you're looking for a different answer, but I'd be concerned about it, if I were you.  Yes, there are other kids who act like that, but not many.  I have twin 8 year old boys in 3rd grade, both gifted, and they haven't thrown a tantrum like you describe since they were 2.  Tantrums are not a gifted issue-- intensity can be, but in the gifted kids I know, including my boys, intensity means focus, not tantrums. There are a couple of kids in the HG class one of my boys is in that have behavior issues and they are gifted, but 2E.  One has oppositional defiance disorder and another has aspergers.  I am NOT saying your child has either of those conditions, but it sounds like you need some help dealing with your child's outbursts and tantrums.  I can't even imagine my child hitting me, even lightly.  It would never happen. If you've been worried about it for this long, I think you should trust your gut and see if there's something more  you can be doing to help your son.   What you're doing now is not working. You're not looking for a label, you're looking for help in dealing with behavior that's not OK. Talk to your physician and see about getting recommend for an evaluation.  Maybe he has sensory issues or maybe he just needs different consequences for behaving like that.  

I agree with this.  There aren't a lot of kids that age still pushing their moms even when they are upset and very hungry.  I think you should also sit him down and ask him why he thinks it is okay to push you and not his teacher in a calm curious tone, sometimes you can get good information about what is going on from questions like this because kids are often very honest about what is going on and it may help you see which direction you need to take your search for help in.  If he says something that leads you to believe he knows it is unacceptable at school but you seem fine with being pushed then I suggest seeking someone who can help you work on the behavior aspect.  If he says he just doesn't know what to do or he just doesn't know I think you should seek some help for him in identifying his feelings and letting them out in more appropriate ways.  A diabetes check may also be something to consider. 

I wanted to comment on this specifically.  I thought it was a good idea to sit down and talk with him about it so I did that this evening.  We talked about why he doesn't have these behaviors at school and he said it would be embarrasing to act like that at school.  I asked if it was embarrasing to him to act like that around all the people at the basketball game and he said he didn't think about it.  He said it isn't embarrasing around me and his siblings because he knows us better and feels more comfortable around us.  I suspect part of the equation is that he doesn't get that angry at school.  He accepts the limits his teachers give him and doesn't think he can manipulate or bully his way into something else so he doesn't try and therefore is not so angry when it is unsuccessful.  This is the same answer I've come to through the years - for some reason he thinks it will work with DH and I, although truely I have been watching myself for what might give him that idea and I really don't see it.  We never compromise in situations like that.  Never.  For exactly that reason.  We are willing to compromise or re-consider if the kids approach us more appropriately, though.  DH and I have often said that DS needs a more authoritarian parenting style which is really not who we are. 

Anyhow, I asked him about regret and whether he has ever felt regret for his actions after the fact.  He didn't seem to know what I meant - I don't think guilt or regret is something he is familiar with.  DS2 chimed in an example of wishing he had given the correct answer at school rather than an incorrect one and DS1 could relate to that.  But when it comes to his behavior toward another person he seemed genuinely surprised at the question.  Then I asked him about whether now, after the fact, he could look back at that day and think maybe he should have handled it differently.  He couldn't agree with that.  Basically I think he thought his behavior was justified because he was angry.  He says he knows that pushing and hitting are wrong, but when I said "is it always wrong or is it sometimes okay if you are mad enough?"  And his response was that the later. 

So I am left with the thought that it is something about our parenting style that is not working for DS1. 

Of course, for the past few days he has been Mr. Happy and Helpful. 

[LaurieG]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

there is a current post in "gifted" section right now that applies to your child (just a year different) and you may want to get feedback from gifted parents as well

Could you link me to this thread?  I've been scanning the gifted section but can't find the one you are referring to.

[serenbat]

the child is age 7 - "social skills class"- thought this might give you a little in-site???

I would post/cross post there as well-just might reach someone with more info

www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/1286327/social-skills-class

[bonamarq]

I didn't read all the replies so forgive me if I repeat - I did read enough to agree with those that say this is not out of the ordinary... In classes that I teach on behavior we talk alot about 'setting events' - these are things that make behaving our best more difficult - if not impossible - they inlcude being tired, hungry, sick, or things just not going your way...  (imagine yourself getting a traffic ticket and THEN being asked to be your nicest and most courteous self) You described several of these things prior to the meltdown that really contributed to the difficult behavior - from the sour mood brought on by the dead batteries to not getting what he wanted, several times as you said the line was too long - and growing boys get hungry pretty quick - I get why you stuck with the no ice cream but in HIS mind the sugary snack sister got made this unfair - and it is HIS perspective that is going to influence behavior....

Acceptable behavior - not by a long shot, but given all that 'set him up' for it - nothing out of the ordinary....

To prevent this kind of stuff and be proactive just keep these setting events in your mind as you move through transitions and draw proverbial lines in the sand over issues like the ice cream... It's hard to change your mind sometimes as a parent once you have set your limit - but is there a real nutritional difference between ritz bites and ice cream? Or were you so stuck to your idea of not giving in (and I get that too... only you know your kid - give in this one time and you are paying for it the rest of your life!) I know with my dd, if she convinces me to change my mind about something I try very hard to make her see why I did so, and to in NO way let her feel it was the tantrum or nagging that made me re-think things. Not saying you should have on the ice cream, but just some food for thought ; )

[HeatherB]

I agree that 8-year-old's behavior can be unpredictable. My DS is 8.5 and has a good friend, the DD of a good friend of mine, who is 9. The friend will melt into tears over things that my DS would never cry about - but he doesn't cry much, at all. I can't say either behavior is unusual for the age. My DS is entirely capable of throwing a temper tantrum but the circumstances in which he does it are pretty narrow. It's not a common behavior at all (as opposed to the 3yo who, predictably, has a much harder time with some issues).

The biggest reason I'd recommend looking into it more is that you've debated doing it for so long. Also, it's not just a penchant for tantrums, but a range of other behaviors that could, altogether, be clues to a deeper issue. If that issue can be identified, you can work better to facilitate his needs - whether that's changes in parenting style, helping him learn coping mechanisms, or something else. I've looked into having my own DS evaluated for suspected giftedness as well as possible attention issues with the specific goal of being able to meet his needs more appropriately. I do think there's a real value to testing/evaluations, especially when you have a child with whom your current methods aren't being effective enough.

[LaurieG]

I haven't had time over the past week or so with the holidays to sit and collect my thought until now, but I have been reading and thinking about this issue still.  I've also been trying to watch DS with an analytical approach rather than an emotional one.  What I've come to at this point is that we need to work on his tolerance for frustration.  He just really doesn't know how to deal well with things not going his way.  Add to that the hunger, boredom of having to hang out at his brother's basketball game when he didn't want to, and the fact that he was fighting off a cold and it was just too much. 

The vast majority of the time recently he has been a pleasure to be around.  But he's not in school right now and has been pretty much able to do what he wants.  Still, we are having our fair share of temper tantrums around here for little things like not having what he wants for lunch or my not allowing him to spend 6 hrs+ at our neighbors house where they have a 3 day old baby).

So I guess my point is that I think he does not handle frustration at an "age appropriate" level, meaning I just don't think most 8 year old are having this much trouble accepting when things don't go their way.  I think its definitely something for us to work on.  I also think the point about not setting him up for meltdowns is a good one.  And I have again come to the conclusion that I don't think we have necessarily a diagnosable issue requiring major intervention.

I do plan to bring up some of these issues to his pediatrician at our next appointment.  I fear that his low tolerance for frustration combined with sense that things are often not fair from his perspective will lead to bigger behavioral issue or just generally negatively affect our relationship in the preteen/ teenage years and I think we need to get it addressed by then.

[oceanbluemomma]

I didn' t get to read all the posts but you need to google: yeast overgrowth in gut and food allergies causing tantrums or outbursts.   THis sounds medical and easily treatable. 

[sillygrl]

Bottom line, it wouldn't hurt to bring up these concerns with his pediatrician. If it's something you've been worried about for years, then I think it's something that's important to bring up. Your pediatrician may be able to reassure you or may ask you to see a specialist. I drug my feet on my oldest son for years but finally asked his doctor about the things he was doing. Now, he has the help he needs and is doing a lot better. He's 8 also, does still sometimes have temper tantrums that would put a 2 yr old to shame (lol) but there is a lot of improvement and he's happy. In a way, I wish I had followed my gut sooner.