Dealing with Lack of Peer Group

[VisionaryMom]

So...DS. He's in kindergarten in public school. I actually really like his teacher and the school's general philosophy, but I think many children are starting way behind developmentally, which means a lot of kindergarten is getting people to an even playing field.

DS is right now in his regular math class. He'll be evaluated in January, and they're open to moving him or providing individual work (it's only a K-1 school) as needed. Lovely.

On the social side of things, DS is starting to become aware of the gap. That's saying a lot because he's socially inept and unconcerned. 

A few examples:

We talked about infinity as a mathematical concept the other day, and he told me that he was sad because he didn't know if his friends would understand what it meant so he couldn't talk about it with anyone.

He mentioned that he tried to talk to 2 of the other boys in his class about whether there was something less than zero because he was pretty sure that there had to be numbers less than zero. They told him that they didn't care.

They played a math game, and his teacher limited how many times he could win. (This is a huge, huge issue for me, but I'm letting it go for right now.)

He's also very small for his age. He's often mistaken for a 3-year-old.

So, he basically has nothing in the way of a peer group. We're moving in 18 months to a place with a reputation for appreciating intellectualism more than where we are. I'm really confident from talking to other parents and Googling that there will be a lot for him there, but I'm trying to decide how to fill in the gaps and/or help him now. 

I've tried to help him brainstorm other topics, but he loves math. (Also, we don't prohibit media exposure, but he hasn't seen many of the shows his classmates have.) There is a beginners' chess club starting up, but they were a little weird about him going. I want to take him anyway, but I don't want him to be pressured to "prove" he belongs. (Their flyer says any ages, no knowledge necessary).

Help! I hate seeing him sad, but I don't know what to tell him besides that most people don't like to talk about infinity and negative numbers at recess.

[joensally]

Hi VisionaryMom.  I read your recent thread in Parenting. To set context for my response below, I was a gifted kid who has struggled with anxiety at times, and fights OCD-type inclinations.  I am parenting two gifted kids, both of whom are sensitive, intense and have struggled with anxieties.  DD rages in reaction to anxiety, and DS perseverates.  DS also has some OCD-type inclinations, and has sensory and vision issues.

If you are anywhere near the pacific northwest, I would highly recommend an assessment by the Eides.  I'm saving money to have DS assessed by them, hopefully next year.  If you can't afford it or aren't in proximity to them, you could try emailing them and asking if they can recommend someone near you.

Have you had him eval'd for sensory?  It can be pretty subtle, and manifest as anxiety and compulsions as the child is overwhelmed and is trying to gain control (hand washing = exerting control, for example).

I think I recall that you can't homeschool at this point.  That's what worked for us for grade 1.  We would have done so for kindie but I was naive then.  DS was in a specialized classroom for grade 2 and this year, but I don't know what we'll do next year.  HSing is not great for a whole lot of life/personal/work/family reasons for us, but it may be the very best option for DS and thus would be better for life/personal/family.  We have always had him in a variety of extracurriculars.

What worked for us with DS is being honest, and building acceptance of his differences, and those of others.   "Yep, it's true, most kids aren't that interested in negative numbers or ______.  But that's ok, we all have different interests.  What is Billy interested in?  What about Janice?  Huh, so you're all different from each other.  Must make for some interesting conversations."

We also talked about perspectives, about showing interest in other people's stuff.  We allowed/encouraged his interest in things popular with his peers (thank goodness for the interest in Star Wars and Nintendo in this age group), so that he would have a variety of topics in common beyond his more arcane interests.  But 5 is young to navigate some of this stuff.

[Roar]

Originally Posted by VisionaryMom 

Help! I hate seeing him sad, but I don't know what to tell him besides that most people don't like to talk about infinity and negative numbers at recess.

There should be an ongoing conversation. Talk about the interests of different people you know (Bob loves World War II fighter planes, Aunt Sally loves to travel all over the world, Grandma plays bridge every chance she gets), etc. Make it clear in those conversations how learning is something they take initiative to do on their own. Note when they come together with other people who share their interest. Also, note as it comes up, the different friends you have in your own life and the different kinds of relationships and conversations you have with them. Noticing and appreciating those different interests is something you can do on an ongoing basis and over time maybe you can also encourage the development of some learning relationships as for example Grandma teaches him to play bridge. As your son learns to notice and appreciate the interests of other people he will gain more confidence and appreciation in having his own passionate interests whether they are shared by same age peers or not.

Sometimes kids get the idea that they are supposed to have only one kind of friend, exactly their same age, and the friend will meet their every need. That's a set up for unhappiness. I would instead encourage relationships with people of different ages and model that you can have lots of different kinds of friends who meet different needs in your life. You can have same age soccer friends that you run around with. you can talk about math with mom. you can have older friends you play chess with, you can enjoy playing puppets with your younger cousin, etc.

I would encourage a different kind of thinking about the recess math problem. If in your head you decide this is a big thing to be sad about because his friends can't understand him, I don't think you will be in the right frame of mind to work on this. I would instead see it as a social skills thing. Recess isn't the time for deep conversations. If he had more same age interests it wouldn't change that reality. The problem isn't that the other kids aren't intellectual enough, it is that he's misunderstanding the purpose of recess. Recess is for burning off steam and playing active games. Can he see that's what the other kids are doing? That's great if he wants to think about math. He should make a mental note of it and you will be glad to discuss it with him later but during recess he needs to get his body moving.

So, overall I'm suggesting cultivating a positive attitude and encouraging a broad definition of peer relationships. If our son believed the only way he could have friends was if they were his same age and could discuss math on his level then he'd be very lonely. Instead he's done very well with having different groups of people to share different interests with.

Adding: read your post on parenting. Was he referred to therapy? Simply identifying he's experiencing stress due to asynchronous development is different than offering support and help in learning how to manage that.

http://www.amazon.com/Good-Friends-Are-Hard-Find/dp/096220367X   You might want to check your library for this book.

[Linda on the move]

Is he interested in anything else, or only math?

There's a big difference between "I can't talk about math with my friends" and "I don't have anything in common with the kids at school."

Many children, even very bright ones, don't like being *taught* by other children. They like to play, pretend, build things, create together, run around, etc.

[whatsnextmom]

You know, it may just take time. Kids don't start off the most tolerant of creatures. They aren't the best at the give and take of relationships. They do a lot of talking and not a lot of listening. They want to talk about certain things and anyone who isn't interested is seen as rejecting them. I wouldn't neccessarily view these issues as a result of where you live. Even amoungst the highly and profoundly gifted community, you are going to have to hunt and peck for another child who only wants to talk math. Even if you do find one who is totally math minded, you might find that child wants to talk about THEIR views on math, not neccessarily have a real discussion involving the opinions of others on the subject. Certainly my kids weren't interested in talking math at recess (and their both really good at it).... Ancient civilizations or impressionist painters, YOU BET! 

The good news is, most get better with social interaction as they age. He'll figure out that if he wants friends to listen to him, he'll need to listen to them. He'll start accepting that there is no one friend who is going to fulfill ALL your needs. Some friends are for soccer. Some friends are for math. Others for endless Star Wars conversations. When you find the one that fills the most, you marry them lol. Mixed age settings help. Being in interest based activities like the chess club you mentioned helps too. I know, it's not the answer you're looking for but sometimes, there are no quick fixes. Sometimes you just need time. My kids are 10 and 13. I've been there and survived it. Still, DD 13 has only found what she'd consider a kindered spirt this past year. DS 10 still doesn't have a "best" friend... just many friends that fulfill different needs. You just do your best, keep talking about relationships, be that ear they need when they want to discuss what interests them, encourage them to foster connections even if it is with someone who's only "good" for one thing like they are fun to play tetherball with.

Edited by whatsnextmom - 12/24/10 at 10:46am

[joensally]

I agree with PPs.

I wanted to come back and apologize if I appeared to be pressuring you to homeschool.  That wasn't at all my intention.  When I was posting before I was reflecting on how much easier it is for DS at 8 to understand all of this than it was when he was five.  For us, homeschooling grade 1 was hugely advantageous despite the challenges, and provided DS with a safe opportunity to develop at his own asynchronous rate. 

Another point is that this issue is not unique to gifted kids - five year olds are still so very young and figuring out their social world.  Other five year olds are not exactly attuned or sensitive to others - it's like a grouping of small planets loosely sharing a galaxy.  Occasionally they're in sync, but much of the time they're following their own trajectories.  Lots of five year olds come away from their school days confused, hurt and feeling left out or alone.  How we address it with them supports them in building their resiliency skills. 
 

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by Roar 

So, overall I'm suggesting cultivating a positive attitude and encouraging a broad definition of peer relationships. If our son believed the only way he could have friends was if they were his same age and could discuss math on his level then he'd be very lonely. Instead he's done very well with having different groups of people to share different interests with.

This. 

Of my four kids, only my middle dd has really ever had a friend like this: roughly the same age, with whom she can discuss most of her interests and feelings. My eldest and youngest have had nothing like that, ever, and my ds likewise, not even close. But they don't suffer socially. They have lots of friends and lots of social pursuits. The people they tend to be closest to are those they've eventually met through their interests and passions, usually several years older or else adults. They play and hang out easily with agemates and share some things with them. But just like I don't have any soulmates who share my quirky interests amongst the dozen or so people I work with, my kids haven't found their soulmates in age-stratified classrooms. I still manage to enjoy the company of my colleagues at work: in fact we have a lot of fun and like each other. But I wouldn't call them close friends and I don't have much in common with them.

Miranda

[deminc]

Originally Posted by joensally 

What worked for us with DS is being honest, and building acceptance of his differences, and those of others.   "Yep, it's true, most kids aren't that interested in negative numbers or ______.  But that's ok, we all have different interests.  What is Billy interested in?  What about Janice?  Huh, so you're all different from each other.  Must make for some interesting conversations."

We also talked about perspectives, about showing interest in other people's stuff.  We allowed/encouraged his interest in things popular with his peers (thank goodness for the interest in Star Wars and Nintendo in this age group), so that he would have a variety of topics in common beyond his more arcane interests.  But 5 is young to navigate some of this stuff.

This was exactly what worked for us. In the beginning ds1 was very lonely. He also had sensory and vision issues which limited his enjoyment of physical sports. After months of gym, he became one of the most active boys at the playground and while he may not have a "soulmate", he does have plenty of playmates.  I used to be very much against popular culture and commercialisation, but I have since discovered that Transformers and Bionicles are great ice-breakers. Other children may not be interested in prehistoric stuff or hear of string theory, but there will definitely be a group of die-hard transformer/bionicle fans in the classroom, easily identifiable by their water bottles and pencil cases!  They may not analyse the plot like ds1, but it still make for great conversation and camaraderie.

When ds1 was 5 and I was homeschooling him, I would invite children with similar interests (e.g. dinosaurs) home and actively cultivate the friendship. Now with ds2, I do get him toys that will allow him to join in with the older boys at the playground. Basically help your child to build bridges. For more arcane interests, direct them to someone - an older relative or older child, or engage them in conversation when they want someone to toss ideas around. I basically try to support the boys by showing an interest by getting them books on the topic, showing them stuff on the internet and taking them to related exhibitions.   

[VisionaryMom]

just have a second before I have to get back to Christmas cooking, but...

He isn't aware of other people. The idea of talking to him about what other people are interested in just wouldn't really work for him. I could start pointing that out about people we know, but he could not tell me what interests the other children in his class or even other kids whose families we know. He could tell me where they scored on their reading assessment (which is, unfortunately public info in his school) or how many yellow or red cards they've received. But the idea that other people have personalities or interests is pretty foreign to him.

I get what several of you are saying about recess. He's totally into playing physical games, but he wants to do both - run while playing tag and also asking if you were aware of whatever current math thing he's thinking about. Though he's pretty average at sports, the boys in his age seem to mostly do running-type activities - tag, races, etc., and DS is a very fast runner. He can still chit chat while running, but the other kids (understandably) want to focus on just the game they're playing.

Linda, it's mostly math that interests him. DH & I were talking during Christmas shopping about how he doesn't have a specific interest. He asked for a sewing machine, which he got, and my MIL got him some baking accessories. He LOVES to cook. Neither are really going to do much for him socially, though, I don't think. (And I'm perfectly okay with that. I don't want to encourage interests he doesn't have for the sake of fitting in.)

I would say he's on the cusp of developing an interest in architecture. He wants to know how building support structures work, why different designs are used, how buildings are made, etc. But then, again, that's largely an applied math interest. He's definitely singularly focused, and if he gets excited about something, it's math. We've even had to stop him from hothousing DD(3). We will hear him saying, "ok, count by 10s starting with 30." And dd may or she may say, "I'm coloring." Then he says, "come on, [dd]. 30, 40, what's next?" until she gives in and does it. We've resorted to word problems as an anti-anxiety tool, and it works wonderfully well. So, yeah, I'd say it's just math.

[RiverTam]

Some ideas: 

1) Does your school or library have a kids' math club? Maybe you could start one.

Our library has a Lego Club once a month. They read something and then have a building period. They give the kids a set of instructions to work from or they can free build.

Maybe you could do something like that. Have a math club meeting once a month. Read a math related story or play a math related game, and then ask the kids to do a math-related group activity together. 

2) Do you have access to a kids' Mensa group or a gifted homeschooling group? You might find another math kid there.

3) If all else fails, can you afford to pay a college or math grad student to tutor him in more advanced math concepts? He'd make an older friend who shares his interests. 

[Roar]

Originally Posted by VisionaryMom  But the idea that other people have personalities or interests is pretty foreign to him.

Could you explain that more? Thinking about the people you know well (close family friends, relatives, people he spends lots of time with) would he be unable to identify anything about them like if they are funny, quiet, interested in gardening, etc.  Is this not something you've ever talked about?  There is of course as in all things a huge range of normal, but to really not understand that other people have personalities or interests to me seems surprising for the age. I'm not saying kids on the playground typically spend a lot of time thinking about it, but to be unaware of any differences in people he knows well would be a flag.

[whatsnextmom]

At this age, the idea that other people have personalities or interests shouldn't be foriegn to him. Yes, kindergarteners can be rather selfish creatures and still seeing the world in how it effects themselves but they are also at an age where they should be able to feel compassion and empathy for others. Most of the preschoolers I taught could tell you at leas a couple characteristics and personal interests of every child in their class. Your DS seems to be paying attention to details of his classmates as he knows their reading levels but they are the wrong sort of details for making friends.

Do you guys discuss characters when you read aloud?... their thoughts, feelings, motivations? If not, maybe this would help him. I know both mine were doing this as toddlers and we went out of our way to teach compassion (especially with DD who had the least interest in other people as a tot.) Perhaps it's time to focus on these skills because until he starts taking an interest in what others need and want, he's not going to develop bonds. No one wants to be talked at. You said you were moving to an area where you feel there will be stronger peer choices. I'd start working on this now so he'll be ready to engage when he gets there.

Originally Posted by VisionaryMom 

just have a second before I have to get back to Christmas cooking, but...

He isn't aware of other people. The idea of talking to him about what other people are interested in just wouldn't really work for him. I could start pointing that out about people we know, but he could not tell me what interests the other children in his class or even other kids whose families we know. He could tell me where they scored on their reading assessment (which is, unfortunately public info in his school) or how many yellow or red cards they've received. But the idea that other people have personalities or interests is pretty foreign to him.

I get what several of you are saying about recess. He's totally into playing physical games, but he wants to do both - run while playing tag and also asking if you were aware of whatever current math thing he's thinking about. Though he's pretty average at sports, the boys in his age seem to mostly do running-type activities - tag, races, etc., and DS is a very fast runner. He can still chit chat while running, but the other kids (understandably) want to focus on just the game they're playing.

Linda, it's mostly math that interests him. DH & I were talking during Christmas shopping about how he doesn't have a specific interest. He asked for a sewing machine, which he got, and my MIL got him some baking accessories. He LOVES to cook. Neither are really going to do much for him socially, though, I don't think. (And I'm perfectly okay with that. I don't want to encourage interests he doesn't have for the sake of fitting in.)

I would say he's on the cusp of developing an interest in architecture. He wants to know how building support structures work, why different designs are used, how buildings are made, etc. But then, again, that's largely an applied math interest. He's definitely singularly focused, and if he gets excited about something, it's math. We've even had to stop him from hothousing DD(3). We will hear him saying, "ok, count by 10s starting with 30." And dd may or she may say, "I'm coloring." Then he says, "come on, [dd]. 30, 40, what's next?" until she gives in and does it. We've resorted to word problems as an anti-anxiety tool, and it works wonderfully well. So, yeah, I'd say it's just math.

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by VisionaryMom 

The idea of talking to him about what other people are interested in just wouldn't really work for him. I could start pointing that out about people we know, but he could not tell me what interests the other children in his class or even other kids whose families we know. .... But the idea that other people have personalities or interests is pretty foreign to him.

Really? Totally? Surely he has some awareness of this. Presumably he's aware that his sister sometimes doesn't want to do what he wants to do, because she is involved in her own interest -- you mentioned coloring or whatever. Or there must be times when you've had a long day and you just don't feel like doing what he's asking? Or maybe he's noticed that you're more interested in ____ (baking? math? board games?) than daddy is, because he's more likely to have success convincing you to engage with him? Or that daddy is grumpy because he's tired? Or that his younger cousin really loves physical play? Those are all small places for him to be developing an understanding that other people have different perspectives on the world. I find it hard to believe that he has no awareness of this by age five. 

So assuming that he has some empathy, even at a rudimentary level, I would work with that, nurture it and help it grow. Take every opportunity you can grab to talk about other people's feelings, interests and beliefs. Readalouds are a great opportunity to exercise the empathy muscle. So is a lovely little game we played at dinner each night for a year or so: "Best Thing, Worst Thing," where we tell each other the best and worst things that happened to us that day. Family problem-solving meetings are also a great chance to listen to and begin to understand others' perspectives and interests. 

Miranda

[squimp]

Originally Posted by VisionaryMom 

He isn't aware of other people. The idea of talking to him about what other people are interested in just wouldn't really work for him. I could start pointing that out about people we know, but he could not tell me what interests the other children in his class or even other kids whose families we know. He could tell me where they scored on their reading assessment (which is, unfortunately public info in his school) or how many yellow or red cards they've received. But the idea that other people have personalities or interests is pretty foreign to him.

This seems unusual to me for a kid in K.  Does he have friends, or the concept of friends?  It just seems really strange that he would know someone's reading assessment and not something about their personalities or interests.  My DD is an extroverted 1st grader, and she has always been able (since pre-K) to tell me who likes princesses and who likes fairies, and who likes dogs or cats or guinea pigs, etc.  I know boys and girls are different, but it just seems like a key component of making friends, to be aware of other people.  

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by squimp 
This seems unusual to me for a kid in K.  Does he have friends, or the concept of friends?  It just seems really strange that he would know someone's reading assessment and not something about their personalities or interests.  My DD is an extroverted 1st grader, and she has always been able (since pre-K) to tell me who likes princesses and who likes fairies, and who likes dogs or cats or guinea pigs, etc.  I know boys and girls are different, but it just seems like a key component of making friends, to be aware of other people.  

He knows the reading assessment levels, behavior system, etc. because it's posted. They have a line with a ladybug for each student. The ladybugs move along as the kids pass certain benchmarks in reading. He knows where everyone's ladybug is. He knows which kids have gotten yellow or red cards. He has an excellent memory, so he can tell me that O has had 7 yellow cards and 1 red card total.

The other examples - that some kids like princess or guinea pigs - no, he cannot do that. The only thing he's ever told me that one person has spy gear. To be fair, though, I don't think he talks much to other kids, not that he's ignoring them.

[VisionaryMom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiverTam 

Some ideas: 

1) Does your school or library have a kids' math club? Maybe you could start one.

Our library has a Lego Club once a month. They read something and then have a building period. They give the kids a set of instructions to work from or they can free build.

Maybe you could do something like that. Have a math club meeting once a month. Read a math related story or play a math related game, and then ask the kids to do a math-related group activity together. 

2) Do you have access to a kids' Mensa group or a gifted homeschooling group? You might find another math kid there.

3) If all else fails, can you afford to pay a college or math grad student to tutor him in more advanced math concepts? He'd make an older friend who shares his interests. 

I love these ideas! There are no Mensa or gifted hs groups near us, but maybe there will be where we're moving. I can look into starting a math club at his school, though, and look around for a math tutor.

Originally Posted by Roar 
Could you explain that more? Thinking about the people you know well (close family friends, relatives, people he spends lots of time with) would he be unable to identify anything about them like if they are funny, quiet, interested in gardening, etc.  Is this not something you've ever talked about?  There is of course as in all things a huge range of normal, but to really not understand that other people have personalities or interests to me seems surprising for the age. I'm not saying kids on the playground typically spend a lot of time thinking about it, but to be unaware of any differences in people he knows well would be a flag.

Yes, he would be unable to identify anything about the people he knows the best. I don't know if we've talked about it. I'm not sure why we would've, but I'm sure I've mentioned things about people. 

Originally Posted by whatsnextmom 
Most of the preschoolers I taught could tell you at leas a couple characteristics and personal interests of every child in their class. Your DS seems to be paying attention to details of his classmates as he knows their reading levels but they are the wrong sort of details for making friends.

Do you guys discuss characters when you read aloud?... their thoughts, feelings, motivations? If not, maybe this would help him. 

He could not tell you about the people in his class. I don't know why, but he just can't. He can tell you what type of shoes they have or relay stories about them if the stories involved his teacher (so, M kept talking today during reading. Ms. A had to tell her that we shouldn't do that. M kept talking anyway, and she was disrupting everyone.) Or if someone got sick or injured during the day (a fall on the playground), he knows that, even if he's unaware of the child's name.
 

We don't talk about characters. We tend to talk about plot and/or setting. I will have to make a more concerted effort to talk about characters with him. As I was thinking about these things, we were watching the 1966 version of How the Grinch Stole Christmas. DD was commenting that it was sad, the Grinch is mean, etc. DS' single comment was when the Grinch was headed back up the mountain with all of the Whos stolen goods. DS said, "he needs to get a bigger dog. That one will never be able to pull everything up the mountain." (And yes, he understood what was happening.) So, yeah, perhaps a bit of character discussion would be good.

Originally Posted by moominmamma 

Really? Totally? Surely he has some awareness of this. Presumably he's aware that his sister sometimes doesn't want to do what he wants to do, because she is involved in her own interest -- you mentioned coloring or whatever. Or there must be times when you've had a long day and you just don't feel like doing what he's asking? Or maybe he's noticed that you're more interested in ____ (baking? math? board games?) than daddy is, because he's more likely to have success convincing you to engage with him? Or that daddy is grumpy because he's tired? Or that his younger cousin really loves physical play? Those are all small places for him to be developing an understanding that other people have different perspectives on the world. I find it hard to believe that he has no awareness of this by age five. 

We struggle with his sister because he does expect her to be interested in whatever he is doing. We've worked really hard at explaining that it's wonderful to ask her to play but that she doesn't have to play with him or listen to him just because he wants her to. It's as if to him, her decision to do her own thing is a personal affront. It's very much about him. The other things you mentioned, no, he isn't aware of them. He does know strengths, so if he wants help with a spatial problem, ask Dad. If he wants help with a math puzzle, ask Mom. As far as knowing what his cousins might like to do or caring whether we want to/can attend to his needs, he doesn't. In fact, we've had repeated problems with us being in the middle of something like preparing to leave for vacation, and he's freaking out because one of us won't stop to help him spell something for a story he's writing. It's significant enough that our standard response has become, "that's not the most important thing we're doing right now. It will have to wait." 
 

To use a pop culture reference, he's very much like Sheldon in Big Bang Theory. Whatever is going on is about him. We've tried saying, "tell us something you like about [someone, anyone]," and his answers are things like, "he listens when I tell him which Legos to put where." I know that sounds...terrible as I'm writing it out. He's not a "bad" kid or anything like that. He's just cerebral and highly focused on a very few things. As I'm reading & writing about this, though, I'm becoming more aware that perhaps it is a bigger problem than I've realized. (He's very, very much like me, which is why I said before that I'm sad for him. I have had maybe 2 friends my entire life. I do not know how one makes friends. We only have "family friends" because my husband is much better at these things than I am.) 

[chaimom]

One of my boys (a twin) is HG and was years ahead of his classmates in K.  I won't lie and say it was a fabulous year.  He's still mad that he didn't learn anything (academically).  But he did learn social skills and he made  a lot of friends.  This is just my opinion, but I think you might want to back away from the idea that he has to just focus on his math abilities/interest.  I understand that that's what he's interested in.  But it sounds to me that what you're concerned about, and what would benefit him, would be a friend or two.   I think you might talk to his teachers about what you can do to help him connect with other kids.  Every kid needs to learn social skills to be successful-- in school, socially, on the job.  K is the time to start working on it.  

Edited by chaimom - 12/26/10 at 11:20am

[joensally]

VisionaryMom, gently asked, has he been eval'd for ASD?  What you're describing is pretty atypical.  OCD-type behaviours, anxieties, lack of perspective taking, lack of "theory of mind," seeing others narrowly, dramatic meltdowns, rigid thinking, narrow interests are all ASD characteristics.  Sheldon demonstrates tremendous ASD characteristics.

A number of mothers in this thread are parenting EG and PG kids - this may or may not be caused by/correlate with a high level of intellect.

 Quote:

  I know that sounds...terrible as I'm writing it out. He's not a "bad" kid or anything like that. He's just cerebral and highly focused on a very few things 

Of course he's not a bad kid!  He doesn't sound terrible - he sounds like he needs some more, explicit coaching.  If you haven't already done them, I would look at having a concrete ASD diagnostic done with him, like ADOS or ADIR.  A lot of posters here have been through this whole ASD/gifted merry-go-round, and it can be hard to tease out what's what.  If he does have an ASD, it would be highly beneficial for him to receive services to make his life easier for him to live - reducing anxiety, increasing his skills in connecting with others, etc etc.

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by chaimom 

This is just my opinion, but I think you might want to back away from the idea that he has to just focus on his math abilities/interest.  I understand that that's what he's interested in.  But it sounds to me that would you're concerned about, and what would benefit him, would be a friend or two.   I think you might talk to his teachers about what you can do to help him connect with other kids.  Every kid needs to learn social skills to be successful-- in school, socially, on the job.  K is the time to start working on it.  

I'm not focusing on his math, though I'm happy to encourage those interests. I would love to help him make friends, but what I'm trying to figure out is how. 

Originally Posted by joensally 

VisionaryMom, gently asked, has he been eval'd for ASD?  What you're describing is pretty atypical.  OCD-type behaviours, anxieties, lack of perspective taking, lack of "theory of mind," seeing others narrowly, dramatic meltdowns, rigid thinking, narrow interests are all ASD characteristics.  Sheldon demonstrates tremendous ASD characteristics.

A number of mothers in this thread are parenting EG and PG kids - this may or may not be caused by/correlate with a high level of intellect.

 Quote:

  I know that sounds...terrible as I'm writing it out. He's not a "bad" kid or anything like that. He's just cerebral and highly focused on a very few things 

Of course he's not a bad kid!  He doesn't sound terrible - he sounds like he needs some more, explicit coaching.  If you haven't already done them, I would look at having a concrete ASD diagnostic done with him, like ADOS or ADIR.  A lot of posters here have been through this whole ASD/gifted merry-go-round, and it can be hard to tease out what's what.  If he does have an ASD, it would be highly beneficial for him to receive services to make his life easier for him to live - reducing anxiety, increasing his skills in connecting with others, etc etc.

We've had several people (not professionals, people we know) who've suggested Asperger's. I know that all of the BBT characters are supposed to represent functional Aspies. I also read recently that Asperger's is now a separate diagnosis from ASD. At the same time, when I look at the checklists, many of them don't apply. I understand that it's not necessary for everything to apply for a dx, but in particular, he's coordinated. He has no problems with physical play, no odd gait. He doesn't like to look people in the eye, but he can do so. He's not physically unaware of the world around him in the way I've seen with autistic children. So I always come back to the idea that while he kind of fits, there are many things about him that just don't.

When we saw a developmental psych 1.5 years ago, I anticipated him at least bringing up those things because I know a number of the things I said on the intake forms should have triggered looking for autism/asperger's. After talking to DS and doing some tests, he never mentioned it. Still I don't think all of DS' issues are attributable to giftedness, but I don't know which ones are.

[Roar]

Originally Posted by VisionaryMom 

Originally Posted by Roar 
Could you explain that more? Thinking about the people you know well (close family friends, relatives, people he spends lots of time with) would he be unable to identify anything about them like if they are funny, quiet, interested in gardening, etc.  Is this not something you've ever talked about?  There is of course as in all things a huge range of normal, but to really not understand that other people have personalities or interests to me seems surprising for the age. I'm not saying kids on the playground typically spend a lot of time thinking about it, but to be unaware of any differences in people he knows well would be a flag.

Yes, he would be unable to identify anything about the people he knows the best. I don't know if we've talked about it. I'm not sure why we would've, but I'm sure I've mentioned things about people. 

The reason why I would have talked about it, and a lot, is that it sounds like this is information he needs in order to get along better with other people, to be a good friend and to be happy. It sounds from your description if he's not on the spectrum he at least has many traits of people who are on the spectrum. In that case it isn't fair to expect him to just naturally learn social information. Really all kids need this help and he may need much more directed instruction to improve his awareness of the needs of other people. My thought is that it is GREAT that you are identifying this when he's so young because right now you've got a great opportunity to help him. If you want until he's into the preteen years he likely will have had a lot of negative experience and rejection and may view any efforts of help as criticism. Right now he's much more likely to still be open to learning. Just like he's open to learning about math and everything else under the sun, with good instruction he will be able to learn to improve his social and emotional skills.

One risk for kids like your son is that because he's so good at some stuff (like math) that people overlook the areas of deficit. When you love your kid, including celebrating all of his geekiness, it can be easy to feel like any efforts in these directions are unfair criticism but they really aren't. They are just helping him get skills he needs to have a happy life. We seem to have a cultural thing going where people feel it is totally appropriate to give kids instruction about math, soccer, or violin, but somehow it is crossing the line to help them learn to be a good friend or to know how to relax. We need to get past that.

As you reported these are not areas that necessarily come easy to you either, I would strongly suggest you bring in some outside resources on this one. If there is a psychologist in your area who works with gifted kids that would be a great place to start. If there is a counselor or social worker at his school you could ask if they ever run social skills groups. In these groups kids work together on emotional and social skills. Often university psychology departments also run social skills groups. I would also encourage you to start to think about ways to bring in people in his life who can encourage his development in these areas. Tony Attwood suggests for kids with Asperger's that bringing in an older social saavy kid can be a big help - maybe a 15ish year old kid who is going to grow up to be a teacher or a therapist. An aunt or uncle who has good social skills and some time to devote to developing a special relationships with him might help too. Somebody who will play turn taking games with him and maybe take him to the park and give him some gentle help in learning how to join in on play.