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post #81 of 92
A 13 year old would probably die if she had to give birth? What?
post #82 of 92



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Modmom15 View Post




Exactly how is a 17 year old being sexually involved with a 13 year old legal here? Isn't sexual interaction between someone who can consent and someone who cannot consent considered rape? Perhaps you don't have issues with rape or molestation, but there are protections in the form of "laws" which serve to protect a party who cannot consent, does not consent, or is unable to consent. Just because you feel you have some profound wisdom which overrides penal code doesn't mean that the rest of society, or the executive branch for that matter, will accept your (I'm certain) soundly reasoned levity. I'd also love for you to define "ACTUAL RAPE." Is rape only physical act to you? Do reject all conceptions of mental manipulation regarding rape as a whole? Date rape, where a man gets a woman drunk only to take advantage of her, is not "ACTUAL RAPE"? It's these shallow minded, hypocritical, prophets of ignorance that scare me. 

 

Also, in writing, there is this thing called tone which refers to the speakers voice. By understanding the tone (playful, sarcastic, ect.) one understands more than just the base, simplistic meaning behind the words. A modifier, such as "kindly" in this case, provides an ironic contradiction and helps create the tone of the writing. People who read regularly often find this easier to detect. Hence (now that we know what tone does), we can infer that the "kindly" refers to a lack of seriousness, or an empty threat which has no intention of being carried out, unless in the most extreme circumstances. 

 

I am aware of the horrors of the prison system; you don't need to read Foucault to realize that something is horribly wrong there. I'm also aware that having sex with a 13 year old, who would probably die if she had to give birth, is horribly wrong. You might say in your blustery, confused defense, "But no one said they were having sex!" Exactly, I would respond. That is exactly why I said it was important to make sure that the 17 year old who has the hots for a 13 year old girl is both trustworthy and being supervised. Do you see how in every situation involving reporting the kid for statutory rape there is an "if" clause attached? Like, "if" he raped her? I did not advocate sending him to prison immediately. One would have to be quite. . . unequipped with the faculties of common sense to come to that conclusion. 


I don't buy for one minute the idea that a 13 yr old cannot consent - of course she can. The inability to consent is an arbitrary legal construct.

 

13 yr olds give birth all the time, it is not fatal.

post #83 of 92

A 13-year-old can consent but there is a reason for statutory rape laws. 13-year-olds are impressionable. The average relationship at this age is 3 months. 3 MONTHS. They don't know squat about relationships. They are at the peak of their insecurity and some will do anything to feel loved or accepted. Their sense of mortality isn't yet developed and most still live in the "it could never happen to me" world. Did you know that 5 times as many junior high births are a result to these girls coupling with adult males? Absolutely, a 13-year-old can say "yes" but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be protected from older teens and adult males who know that an insecure girl at this age can be an easy target.

post #84 of 92



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by whatsnextmom View Post

A 13-year-old can consent but there is a reason for statutory rape laws. 13-year-olds are impressionable. The average relationship at this age is 3 months. 3 MONTHS. They don't know squat about relationships. They are at the peak of their insecurity and some will do anything to feel loved or accepted. Their sense of mortality isn't yet developed and most still live in the "it could never happen to me" world. Did you know that 5 times as many junior high births are a result to these girls coupling with adult males? Absolutely, a 13-year-old can say "yes" but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be protected from older teens and adult males who know that an insecure girl at this age can be an easy target.


 


5 times as many as what?

 

I have serious issues with those "protections", but I will admit that I do not have a solution to the problem.

 

I do think the suggestion to threaten someone with a false charge of statutory rape if they've been "inappropriate" with the OP's daughter is way over the top. I presume "inappropriate" did not mean sex, or that would have been stated.


 

 

post #85 of 92
Modmom-

I realize that sex between underage people with more than a 2-3 year age difference is illegal or I wouldn't be warning that there are people who find it appropriate to use that unfortunate law to control teen sexuality. I do not consider statory rape to be actual rape and I think the fact that it is prosecuted with real sex crimes cheapens and makes sex offender controls less effective. The punishment so grossly outweighs the crime that I think it should be taken completely away. My response was for the people posting that they engaged in similar relationships and don't necessarily. See the harm. I agree but there are people who think it would be appropriate to send someone to prison for hears and have them stuck in our sex offender system. Once the ball is rolling the parent cannot stop it or miigate the consequences.

I get you tone and your intent I just find them repulsive.
post #86 of 92


First, thanks for everyone that has shared their views on this topic.  It has been really interesting to read through them.  I hope we can keep it respectful even though there are some pretty strong feelings.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by EFmom View Post

My sympathies.  My then 12.5 year old dd went to a summer music camp last summer and had a very similar thing happen with a 16.5 year old boy.  In our house, the kids are not allowed to date at that age, period, let alone a guy who is that much older.  I don't believe for a minute that the guys just want to be friends.  It's creepy.  I had just given dd a cell phone for her birthday, right before camp, and they were texting up a storm.  He did want to go out with her and asked her to movies, etc., which we did not allow to happen.


When DP & I went to college we were shocked to find out that one of his younger brother's new best friends was a guy who had been in class with DP.  So, this was a 19 year old hanging out with a 14 year old.  We thought it was creepy and that *something* must be up. At BIL's next birthday it was just the family plus this guy and we realized he was just really, really immature.  They were both into drama (acting), video games, beavis & butthead, etc...  There is such a wide variety  of maturity levels in this age range.

 

On the other side, I was a fairly mature 17 year old when I became good friends with a boy three years younger.  He definately was crushing on me, but I was certainly never going to take it anywhere BUT I also got a lot out of the relationship.  Not every relationship needs to be a meeting of the souls, kwim?  He was fun, funny & a serious ego boost.   I would hate to think his parents thought it was creepy that I was wanted to hang out with him, kwim.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristine233 View Post

I was 14 dating a 17 year old (and we quickly both turned 15 & 18), my parents hated the age gap, especially since he was done with high school. We didn't have cellphones, they forbid me from seeing him when I was 16. I still saw him, for 9 months I was grounded from him and still saw him almost daily. I got into far more trouble when I was sneaking around.
 

 

This touches on my concern with forbidding things.  It also makes it *impossible* for the child to get help if they get in a bad situation.  If they are going behind your back to do something "illegal" then they don't have an adult they can talk about it with--- because no matter what they'll get in trouble for it.  I really hope that my kids feel like I am there for them no matter what, kwim.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbangoddess2 View Post

13 isn't so young and 17 isn't so old, in my opinion. 

 


The more kids I know the more I see this to be true.

 

DD ended up being very young for her grade and DS is very old for his grade.  I see this "problem" hitting from both directions.  When we were considering what grade to put DD in I was *very* concerned with what would happen when she was a freshman in a district with higher than average retention and red-shirting.  She will go to a four-year high school (9th) grade when she is only 13.  Meanwhile, DS will turn 18 before he starts his senior year of high school.  I felt a lot of fear about DD being exposed to those "men"--- there will be students literally 5-6 years older then her.  But now I think of my DS and it just breaks my heart that there are other parents out there thinking that about *him.*  Now, at 9, he still gets along well with kids younger than him.  His best friend just turned 8.  I can totally see him being 17-18 and having a lot of 14 year old friends.  I hope that their parents are more open minded than I have been in the past :(
 

post #87 of 92

13 year olds are raging with hormones and tend to blow things out of proportion. I was a camp counselor for girls ages 12-14 and their worlds were only about boys. If you trust that your daughter is intelligent and educated about her age, boundaries, body, and sexual relationships she will back down if it ever came to her being propositioned. She needs to feel seen in the eyes of the male species right now and unfortunately if you get really upset with her her imagination will run wild and she'll want him even more. That doesn't mean they're going to have sex, not if she fully understands what that entails, and not if she has as much self confidence as a 13 year old can have. Let them talk, let her figure it out. But make sure she understands what it all might lead into. Now is the time to be reinforcing her with positive sexual education so that she can make informed choices. 

 

 

post #88 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by eclipse View Post

A 13 year old would probably die if she had to give birth? What?

 

Wait, it's shocking that there are health complications in teen births? A 13 year old who hasn't finished physically developing is much more likely to die than a mother who is physically mature.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by choli View Post



 


I don't buy for one minute the idea that a 13 yr old cannot consent - of course she can. The inability to consent is an arbitrary legal construct.

 

13 yr olds give birth all the time, it is not fatal.


Are we going to get into a semantical debate here? Obviously, she can say physically speak the word "yes." The mistake is in believing that she is mentally capable of deciding whether she should have sex, or in believing that she is impervious to pressuring from an older party. Of course the idea of consent is a construct, but it's a social construct rather than a purely legal one. All of our society is constructed; reality is what we perceive, what meaning we give to the physical world which we interact with daily. The idea of childhood innocence, that children are different in some ways from adults, is a relatively new social construction, coming about in the last few hundred years during the Early Modern era. You would have fit in quite well with 14th century thought. I'm curious to see if you identify yourself as progressive, since you seem to be intrinsically opposed to the basis of progressivism, modern secular reason.

 

To think that a 13 year old is mature enough to have sex is to ignore both hard science and social science. The brain is not fully developed physically, impacting rational thought, and neither is the body, which leads to this:

 

"Risks for medical complications are greater for girls 14 years of age and younger, as an underdeveloped pelvis can lead to difficulties in childbirth. Obstructed labour is normally dealt with by Caesarean section in industrialized nations; however, in developing regions where medical services might be unavailable, it can lead to eclampsiaobstetric fistula,infant mortality, or maternal death.[4] For mothers in their late teens, age in itself is not a risk factor, and poor outcomes are associated more with socioeconomic factors rather than with biology.[5]"

 

The social sciences have also shown negative effects:

 

"However, in a Kaiser Family Foundation study of US teenagers, 29% of teens reported feeling pressure to have sex, 33% of sexually active teens reported "being in a relationship where they felt things were moving too fast sexually", and 24% had "done something sexual they didn’t really want to do".[23]"

 

This is a situation where you have to trust scientific research in order to bring valid points to an argument. If you're someone who denies global warming, thinks the earth was created 6,000 years ago, or believes financial regulation is unnecessary, there isn't much anyone can do for you.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppyMama View Post

Modmom-

I realize that sex between underage people with more than a 2-3 year age difference is illegal or I wouldn't be warning that there are people who find it appropriate to use that unfortunate law to control teen sexuality. I do not consider statory rape to be actual rape and I think the fact that it is prosecuted with real sex crimes cheapens and makes sex offender controls less effective. The punishment so grossly outweighs the crime that I think it should be taken completely away. My response was for the people posting that they engaged in similar relationships and don't necessarily. See the harm. I agree but there are people who think it would be appropriate to send someone to prison for hears and have them stuck in our sex offender system. Once the ball is rolling the parent cannot stop it or miigate the consequences.

I get you tone and your intent I just find them repulsive.


I wonder if you'd let your 13 year-old daughter date a 17 year-old when it really came down to it. You know, we should test this. I know it's not a perfect situation, but if you have a child with roughly the same age difference to me, I challenge you to send them over. Maybe I could show them a thing or two. Of course, that's only if they consent. You'd better hope they don't find me physically attractive!

 

I don't think you really understand my intent, though. The concept of statutory rape really comes down to an arbitrary set of numbers that reflect nothing but a possible baseline for hypothetical actions. In my mind, sex between a 17 year old and a 16 year old should not warrant a statutory rape charge if both of them are mature enough to handle sex. However, when someone is 4 years younger than the person they're dating, especially at a point where that four year gap makes up nearly a fourth of their life, I begin to see some major issues. You cannot scientifically claim that both of those people are at the same developmental state - mentally or physically. And there is no way you can claim it wouldn't result in an imbalance of power in the relationship, leading to possible pressuring. To claim contrary through an anecdote, saying "I've met a lot of mature 13 year-old girls ready for sex," is ridiculous. If laws were formulated to cover only the most mature or aware segments of a population, 75% of the people would be unprotected. Just out of curiosity, do you consider yourself an anarcho-capitalist?

 

I'm sorry that I have to be the person to bring facts into this debate, but I feel like it has to be done. As a side note, my partner is nearly two years older than I am, and we met when I was 18. 

post #89 of 92
Just checking in here, with a reminder to treat other posters with courtesy and respect as per our User Agreement.

I think there are a few issues here... one would be the laws regarding giving consent to have sexual intercourse, and their legitimacy (laws which my kid was breaking in our state at 16, FWIW, because her boyfriend was over 5 years older than she was, and in her specific situation I didn't have a problem with it). Is it moral for the state to regulate sexuality? How are these laws similar or dissimilar from laws forbidding sodomy or miscegenation? There's a lot of talk recently about the modern extension of childhood - in some times and countries 14 year old were considered fully adult, but today in the U.S. even 20 year olds really aren't... heck, one could make a case that college undergrads aren't fully adult even at 21 or 22. Are we that much less competent than other societies? Or were other societies inappropriately adultifying children?

Another issue is that of the increased risks associated with giving birth at very young ages, which I think we all agree about.... on the other hand, I think there's a lot of room between "more risky" and "would probably die", and I agree with the former but not the latter.

Just some of my thoughts... and yes, I am a social scientist. wink1.gif
post #90 of 92


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Modmom15 View Post



 

Wait, it's shocking that there are health complications in teen births? A 13 year old who hasn't finished physically developing is much more likely to die than a mother who is physically mature.

More likely to die than someone who is very unlikely to die does not equal likely to die.

 

Are we going to get into a semantical debate here? Obviously, she can say physically speak the word "yes." The mistake is in believing that she is mentally capable of deciding whether she should have sex, or in believing that she is impervious to pressuring from an older party. Of course the idea of consent is a construct, but it's a social construct rather than a purely legal one. All of our society is constructed; reality is what we perceive, what meaning we give to the physical world which we interact with daily. The idea of childhood innocence, that children are different in some ways from adults, is a relatively new social construction, coming about in the last few hundred years during the Early Modern era. You would have fit in quite well with 14th century thought. I'm curious to see if you identify yourself as progressive, since you seem to be intrinsically opposed to the basis of progressivism, modern secular reason.

I seriously doubt the poster was referring to a 13 year old girls ability to say YES.

 

To think that a 13 year old is mature enough to have sex is to ignore both hard science and social science. The brain is not fully developed physically, impacting rational thought, and neither is the body, which leads to this:

Apparently the brain is not fully developed until 25 and I don't see the age of consent being moved to accomodate that newish tidbit.  The developement of the body varies widely in 13 year olds.  For example, my dd is a couple of years ahead of where I was at 13.

 

"Risks for medical complications are greater for girls 14 years of age and younger, as an underdeveloped pelvis can lead to difficulties in childbirth. Obstructed labour is normally dealt with by Caesarean section in industrialized nations; however, in developing regions where medical services might be unavailable, it can lead to eclampsiaobstetric fistula,infant mortality, or maternal death.[4] For mothers in their late teens, age in itself is not a risk factor, and poor outcomes are associated more with socioeconomic factors rather than with biology.[5]"

 

The social sciences have also shown negative effects:

 

"However, in a Kaiser Family Foundation study of US teenagers, 29% of teens reported feeling pressure to have sex, 33% of sexually active teens reported "being in a relationship where they felt things were moving too fast sexually", and 24% had "done something sexual they didn’t really want to do".[23]"

 

This is a situation where you have to trust scientific research in order to bring valid points to an argument. If you're someone who denies global warming, thinks the earth was created 6,000 years ago, or believes financial regulation is unnecessary, there isn't much anyone can do for you.

None of these have much in common with the attempt to legislate teen sexuality in such an arbitrary and inflexible way.

 


I wonder if you'd let your 13 year-old daughter date a 17 year-old when it really came down to it. You know, we should test this. I know it's not a perfect situation, but if you have a child with roughly the same age difference to me, I challenge you to send them over. Maybe I could show them a thing or two. Of course, that's only if they consent. You'd better hope they don't find me physically attractive!

I have done by best to prevent my dd from dating anyone with more than a 3 year age difference because it would break my heart if someone elses child was charged with statutory rape.  My dd is bi-polar and exhibits hypersexuality as well as developementally appropriate sexual interest in her peers so it gets muddy.  It took me a while of working with her to get her to understand that she couldn't lie about her age just because she felt she was that old and engage in sexual texting/photo exchanges with older teens/grown men.  It is nice for me when she dates people I find enjoyable to be around so I'll pass on the invite.  

 

I don't think you really understand my intent, though. The concept of statutory rape really comes down to an arbitrary set of numbers that reflect nothing but a possible baseline for hypothetical actions. In my mind, sex between a 17 year old and a 16 year old should not warrant a statutory rape charge if both of them are mature enough to handle sex. However, when someone is 4 years younger than the person they're dating, especially at a point where that four year gap makes up nearly a fourth of their life, I begin to see some major issues. You cannot scientifically claim that both of those people are at the same developmental state - mentally or physically. And there is no way you can claim it wouldn't result in an imbalance of power in the relationship, leading to possible pressuring. To claim contrary through an anecdote, saying "I've met a lot of mature 13 year-old girls ready for sex," is ridiculous. If laws were formulated to cover only the most mature or aware segments of a population, 75% of the people would be unprotected. Just out of curiosity, do you consider yourself an anarcho-capitalist?

Sometimes there is an imbalance of power and pressuring and sometimes there is not.  Sometimes the pressuring even comes from the younger partner.  I'm sure there are major issues that occur.  Statutory rape laws are not the same as driving age laws or even drinking laws (which I also think are a bit off) in part because the consequences are so extreme.  People don't get tickets or have to go to counseling or call their parents and go to juvenile court when someone is reported for statutory rape (and this could be by an angry parent or even a mandated reporter in TX if a teen goes to PP for health services they will ask if you are having sex with anyone 3 years older or anyone of the same sex and that they must report it) they go to prison (in my state for a MIN of 2 years) and then they are subject to the sex offender laws.  Using your precentages- I would rather 75% of problematic teen sexual relationships be unlegislated than any young people have their lives senselessly ruined by this law.  ...and no I'm not an anarcho-capitalist I am a libertarian-socialist sympathyzer which translates as a disgruntled, disillusioned social-democrat. 

 

I'm sorry that I have to be the person to bring facts into this debate, but I feel like it has to be done. As a side note, my partner is nearly two years older than I am, and we met when I was 18. 



 

post #91 of 92

As far as the Keiser Family Foundations study about peer pressure, I would take those surveys with a grain of salt because often their are not answered honestly & I don't think a lot of teens take them seriously. Also as far as actually being pressured into sex who says it's the girl being pressured, i didn't see where it said. The study I read said that more teen boys felt pressured than girls. As a teen I was a year younger than my boyfriend & pressured him, yes it's not nice but I was a hormonal teen. I'm just not sure why the boy is being turned into the big bad wolf when we don't even know he's done anything wrong. There are many many boys 17yr & over that do not feel ready to have sex yet. The one 1 dated for instance & my hubby was in his 20's. If he does wanted to date her & that's a big if maybe that is part of the reason. Maybe he feels pressured by girls his own age.

 

Also with all the medical advances I hardly doubt a 13yr old having a baby would kill her as someone else said. In some other cultures & states it is legal to get married at 13 & very common practice in early times. I definitely don't think 13yr olds should get married but it just shows how some think differently of maturity. She shouldn't be treated like a child because she isn't & she shouldn't be treated like an adult because she isn't that either. There needs to be a happy medium.  Just because she's 13 doesn't mean she can't make some good decisions & needs to be given the chance to with guidance. The only way you can possibly know what she is thinking & feeling is by talking to her & meeting her halfway. Between the two of you you should be able to come up with a solution you both can live with. At some point she'll be moved out of the house & you want her to be able to make good decisions on her own.

post #92 of 92

16 yo is the age of consent for both sexes where I live.  I have a younger teen girl and older teen boys.  My daughter luckily thinks its weird that a lot of girls at school are only interested in older boys.  I daresay she'll get over that attitude sometime soon.  The boys are older and I have had conversations with them about dating younger girls as they got older.  It is actually quite hard for boys when they are 'just over the line' of being an adult.  Often most of their friends are younger and therefore 'children.'  Eventually their friends also get older, and they meet other young adults, but initially it can be a lonely time. 

I think I would be having a discussion with my daughter first if it was me.  And I might even suggest to her that I'd like to sit down with them both and tell them my concerns, and hear what their views are? 

Back on the first page a lot of people were saying that a 13 yo girl doesn't need a phone and that she can borrow other people's phones if she needs to.  Yep, she can and will - she'll use their phones to call the boy in question as well! 

Honestly I think the two things you can and should do is talk to your daughter and perhaps pray a lot as well!  Even tho she may be pretty ticked at you now, I would ask if we could set up a time to air our grievances;  and at that time you get to say what you think - she can't respond, just listen.  And then vice versa - you cannot respond, just listen.  It is so hard to just bite your tongue.  But if you listen to what they have to say you don't have to agree with them, but you can often see how they feel.  Making an effort to patch up your relationship now means that you will have a bigger part in her teens than you might have if you don't listen to what's important to her now.  Ali

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