I think this goes here...? Why do people do this?

[UnschoolnMa]

I am not entirely sure if this goes here, in Talk Amongst, GD, or unschooling. LOL!   Here goes:

My kids are 17 and 19, so this isn't so much about them in the present as much as it is about how I parented when they were wee. It's also about other kids in my life that are still young yet.

My approach: if it's cold/wet/otherwise wonky weather I may make mention of such to a child when we are preparing to go outside or leave for awhile. I might say "Hey, it's kind of wet and cold outside. You may want to grab a coat/hat/scarf/etc." or that it's supposed to get cold and wet and that I'd hate for them to be uncomfortable unnecessarily later on should they not have it. I may mention that we can toss it in the trunk or a backpack, etc. In other words, it's never an order or a big huge deal.

So, what if they choose not to bring jackets and etc and are cold later? Well, in some cases I have grabbed the stuff anyway thinking ahead, and in some cases I haven't. And they were cold. It was never a pre planned  "lesson teaching", but if it happened we talked about the obvious, I tried to warm them up and we moved on. In the future, should the same situation arise, I might say "So hey, remember that time we didn't take the coat and really sucked? Yeah.. might want to grab it." Again, no drama, no arguing, no told you so, no punishments. To me, this kind of discussion is so super invaluable.

 Why do parents/adults and kids fight about this!?  At a ritual recently I witnessed a total meltdown between parent and child over this. It was about 48 degrees or so, very light rain and child (about 7) didn't want to put the mittens and scarf on. They were already wearing a hoodie. What followed was parental cajoling, threatening, yelling, sadness, and so on. Now, I surely don't mean to judge this parent that I don't even know. The Gods know I've had my moments of awfulness, mostly in public, and I couldn't explain those now if I tried. I don't mean to sound nasty at all. and I am fully aware that any number of other things could have been at work there. That being said, I couldn't help but silently go through that situation as I would have w my kids and felt badly they weren't able to reach that place right then....

 So we have a young friend who visits us. Home is a hard place right now, and we like being a good place to be. He is 10.5 yrs old. We live in the Pac NW, and it rains from Oct to April here on a regular basis, and is rather chilly for much of that. I have handled the coat thing with young friend the same way I did with my own kids. AKA: Here is the situation that is or may develop in the near future, here are the tools and how you might use them, and please feel free to ask me any questions or for help along the way should you need it. :)  So young friend and I on a strange kinda warm day (58 degrees ha!) were standing out in the rain with the dogs for a few minutes. It was a freakish 5 minute hard down pour, and it was awesome. My partner's parents (we are staying on their property atm) freaked about him not having a coat and hat on. I was thinking, "I'll go alert the freaking media..."  Also, I don't see a little rain or a short amount of time spent outside in chilly or windy weather without a coat as the end of the world. Clearly, if a child is uncomfortable or in an unhealthy/dangerous situation we do what we reasonably can, but I've never  heard of a disaster from a child being wet from rain. Who wants to live in a world without rain falling on you anyway?

If a child knows what is up, and knows what to do if he is cold, in pain, etc... what's the issue?

[peainthepod]

A lot of people take a very controlling, authoritarian approach to parenting. I'd even say it's the mainstream way in some regions of the country. So the child not wanting to dress appropriately for the weather seems like a challenge or a discipline issue to them, and not a common sense/safety issue. And so they fight about it.

Another possibility is the common misconception that you can catch a cold from being, well, cold. So you'll hear people say things like, "You put a coat on this instant before you catch your death of cold!" etc.

For really little ones, I enforce coats, hats, and mittens, because mine are still pre-verbal or not verbal enough to tell me when they're getting too cold or their fingers/toes are getting numb. And we live in a really cold, wintry climate, so dressing for the weather isn't something they get to opt out of. But as they get older, I'll be handling it the way you described, because I very much believe that letting children experience the natural consequences of their choices (within reason, obviously) is a much more effective teaching tool than screaming, "Because I said so!"

Or, as Herbert Spencer said, "The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of his folly is to people the world with fools."

Ask me again in a few years when I've actually started putting this into practice...

[ananas]

I've seen this, too, and I don't get it, either. It reminds me of parents who are too obsessive about their child not eating their entire meal.

[CatsCradle]

Well, we spend a lot of time outdoors traveling from one place to another, with little shelter in between.  When one member of the family is miserable due to weather, the whole family suffers.  People who are miserable slow the process, because suddenly the issue becomes not traveling, but dealing with that person's misery.  

I don't argue about coats and hats when we are leaving the apartment, but I will carry such items with me and when certain individuals realize that they need them, then we put them on.  I generally don't like to argue about this kind of stuff, but I won't let someone slow us down due to their discomfort.  Soon enough they'll catch the drift.  

[2lilsweetfoxes]

I think it is also the fear of being labeled a "bad parent" for letting the child go out without "proper" outerwear.  "What will people think" of my parenting skills if Junior is not wearing a heavy overcoat, galoshes, mittens and a hat? 

[EviesMom]

For the little kids, it's because they may really and truly not want the hat/gloves/coat/boots, however... they also are going to want a) me to carry them; b) to go home sooner and not run the errands that need running. I will just take the stuff along though rather than argue about it most of the time, but when it's sleeting and gross outside, having to stop outside to finish dressing them now that they've FINALLY decided to wear the gear is extremely annoying. 

As to "how cold is cold," that's all relative to your area. I went last year from NY in the teens and twenties to Arizona in the high 60s. In NY, it was all coats and hats. In Arizona, there was us in long sleeves, but no stockings under skirts; and the people who live there year round in winter coats and hats. They were very sure we'd "catch our death of cold."

[Storm Bride]

I honestly don't get it, until I think about ds2. I think he has sensory issues, but whatever it is...he'll put on a sweatshirt, sweatpants and boots when it's 35 degrees (Celsius) outside...and shorts, t-shirt and crocs when there's snow on the ground. He doesn't seem to be able to monitor his own body processes, either (eg. frequently thinks he's hungry/thirsty when he's actually tired, or hungry when he's actually thirsty - things like that). If we don't "make" him dress appropriately (eg. "take off the heavy clothes or you can't play outside right now"), he'll make himself ill or catch a chill or whatever...and he does not put it together the next time it happens, even with our help and guidance. So...I tend to do this with him more than I normally would.

OTOH...dd1 used to go out in a princess dress, boots and her big brother's Tae Kwon Do helmet, so I'm obviously not really anal about this topic.

[JayGee]

My 4 yo DD refuses to wear a coat, even when it's 15 degrees out.  Instead she just complains about how cold she is!  So I made her a blanket poncho out of two layers of fleece and she wears that happily.  Must be something about sleeves.  Anyway, when my DS was about 3, he didn't like his parka, and preferred a hooded fleece.  One day we went to the post office and it was brutally cold (like below 0F) and DS was wearing his fleece.  Some man had the nerve to say to me, "Why isn't he wearing a parka?  It's too cold for just that."  I jokingly said that he didn't like his parka and wouldn't wear it. This man had the nerve to get up in my face and say, "You're his MOTHER.  It's your job to MAKE him wear it, whether he likes it or not!"  So yes, some people can be very controlling about what their kids wear.

[oaktreemama]

I am only picky when we are going for a hike. My son still rides in the Kelti at this point so he needs to wear a hat, mittens, snowboots, and his snowsuit. Since he wants to go on the hike as much as we do, it is never an issue of "force." Out and about running errands and such? I am not picky at all. We will be outside at most two minutes and live in a densly populated area so if we did break down there would be no worries either.

[UnschoolnMa]

Thanks for all the replies everyone!  It helps to view these things through the eyes of many I guess.

I think the idea that parents will worry about what others will think about their parenting should the child not wear a jacket is a good point. It also shed light on why I never really dealt with that... by and large I just never cared about that aspect. I understand how hard it can be to feel judged though.

I was thinking more on the difference between little little ones (pre or mostly pre verbal, conversational) and bigger kids. With truly little kids I just talk about it and grab it for them, whatever. With bigger kids? I may do it just the same. I think the difference I am seeing (IRL) is that with the bigger kids parents are reluctant or unwilling to take the coat for them, fearing they may lose some lesson or something I suppose.

My partner said he suspects it's also maybe a generational thing. Many of the folks we see getting super worked up about this are in their 50's and upwards. He said that when he was a kid, say 11 yrs old in 1987, his parents hardly knew where he was let alone if he had a bloody jacket on & now they are among the most concerned about kids and coats LOL.

Peace, Un

[MariaMadly]

Northern New England mom here -- our line was always if being exposed to the weather was a safety issue.  Otherwise, no big deal.  We always had a bag of extra just-in-case clothes, snacks (food allergies made that a bigger deal than it might have been), etc., and pulled them out if one of the boys changed his mind about what he was wearing.  Both grew up being able to self-regulate pretty well, though the younger one wants to go away to school where it's 70 degrees Fahrenheit year-round!

Just saw your Post #10, OP, and I've run into surprise or agree-to-disagree from other parents who wouldn't have taken a jacket or something as backup.  I think people worried that our (older) kids would learn to be irresponsible, though I chose to spin it as my modeling responsibility for them to take on when they were ready.  So far, so good -- they're ambitious, compassionate, hard-working guys.

[Shaki]

Where we live it's very cold. We just recently got a car, but before we had a car we took public transport or walked. In the winter I do make sure my DD has on
"proper" outdoor clothes. We do sometimes argue about it. In the shoulder seasons I allow her more freedom to decide on her outerwear, but not in the winter and especially not when we are traveling on foot or by bus (if it's getting in the car and then driving to an indoor location I can be more flexible).

BUT my new years resolution is to not get involved in, comment on, or try to control what she wears as far as indoor clothes go. I've told her that as long as it's weather appropriate she calls the shots. I had to make this resolution because she has become very particular about what she wears--often making passionate choices about clothes that I don't understand at all and that she can't explain. It's been driving me CRAZY!!! It started to remind me of when she first started potty training and i'd be asking her all the time if she needed to go to the bathroom and freaking out if she refused, then one day I decided to back off entirely and we were both much happier, and she went ahead and potty trained just fine without me flapping around in the background like a crazy woman.

So anyway I guess I see both sides. I've drawn a line at weather appropriate but as far a fashion choices she's calling the shots.

[cappuccinosmom]

Well, I tend to be more on the authoritative end of the scale, but this is not something I argue with the kids about.  If they're going to be out in the freezing cold and snow for hours (like today) the choice is either wear full snow gear or stay home and miss the fun.  If we're just running errands, I let them stick their noses out the door to see how cold it is, and then they pick their own level of warmth, and suffer the consequences if they know it's cold but choose not to wear something warmer.

I do think people worry about being percieved as a bad parent if the kid isn't fully decked out head to toe in winter wear when it's cold.  I got harassed for not putting socks on my baby in August, so I'm sure some people have an opinion about parents who let their kids wear only sweatshirts or something in winter.  And definitely worrying about health is a big issue for lots of people, I'm sure.

[mamazee]

If it's dangerously cold, like below 0 F with a windchill far below, where I have to worry about frostbite or something, then I'll fight this battle, but otherwise I just grab the stuff and bring it with me and they can put it on when they feel cold enough.

[JollyGG]

I live in an area where -40 is not uncommon in the winter. Bad things really will happen if you don't dress appropriately for the weather and they will happen in a very short amount of time. The weather can also change dramatically in the course of a day. We've had days where coats and hats were necessary for the walk to school but shorts would have been more appropriate for afternoon recess in the fall and spring. So my child does not have the forsight or ability to figure it all out. Some days I don't either. We turn the weather channel on in the morning to try and figure out how to dress ourselves and the kids during certain times of the year.

Also my kids go to school and daycare. They are away from me for large portions of the day. So just bringing it with aren't viable options. I need them to have it themselves. Which means we may have to fight a bit about if he really does need to tuck that jacket in his backpack or not in the morning before we leave our own separate ways.

So yes outdoor wear is something I'm willing to turn into a battle. I think sometimes it becomes such a habit that it's in place during the parts of the year where their wear isn't really as much of an issue and that it can be difficult to step back and say "You know it's not February, there are not life threatening dangers to dressing inappropriately and I should let this go". If you are used to the fight many just keep fighting it.

Edited by JollyGG - 12/28/10 at 12:38pm

[texmati]

Originally Posted by ananas 

I've seen this, too, and I don't get it, either. It reminds me of parents who are too obsessive about their child not eating their entire meal.

I was just about to bring this up. Our son is still young, but I see so many food battles even for kids around his age! He still 15 mos, so I feel it's my responsibility to put him in a hat even if he cries about it. But food? I feel like he's plenty clear about what he wants to eat and when.

[Spring Lily]

Some people might not have the parenting skills to know other ways to handle something like that. They simply may never have seen another perspective on it or know that they have options. Sometimes it's hard to step back and question how you were raised and what you're doing, it can be scary or confusing to step away from that "control" mentality. I try not to judge too harshly because of that.

[mamazee]

People are also strongly affected by personal experience.  If they ever had frostbite as a child, or if they were stuck places very cold, they might feel more strongly about it.  All parents probably have some trigger or another based on their experiences.  I try to let those kinds of things go because of my personal parenting philosophy of "relax, most things aren't that important" (see thread about parenting philosophies/mantras), but I know I'm human and there are probably areas where I could relax more but have trouble due to some experience of mine.

[HollyBearsMom]

I was thinking more on the difference between little little ones (pre or mostly pre verbal, conversational) and bigger kids. With truly little kids I just talk about it and grab it for them, whatever. With bigger kids? I may do it just the same. I think the difference I am seeing (IRL) is that with the bigger kids parents are reluctant or unwilling to take the coat for them, fearing they may lose some lesson or something I suppose.

 

Yup, this is us too. We live in New England and yeah it gets cold but clothing has never been worth a power struggle.  

When our son was really young/pre verbal I just went with the flow.  I would say "Brrr, its pretty cold out, lets get our coats/hat/mitten before we head outside". Most times he would let me dress him and off we went.  If he struggled I just brought the stuff with us and offered again later. 

When he was a toddler I let him decide and talked about how the windchill makes us colder, how wet jeans were no fun after a few sled rides but wearing snow pants keep us warm, etc. I never "taught him a lesson" in a negative way since I still felt (at that age) it was my responsibility so I made sure we packed a bag of what we needed and would offer again if I saw signs of cold.  No guilt trips either.

Now that he is 9 I trust him to make his own decisions and deal with the consequences.  We still talk about the weather (and are both weather.com junkies, LOL) but I trust him to pack what he needs for school, sports, etc. He is pretty good about throwing an xtra sweatshirt in his back pack but he runs hot so often doesn't have a coat/hat/gloves.  I get lots of  from other adults when they see him out playing. 

[CatsCradle]

I think an interesting thing that no one has mentioned is that generally, our tolerance for cold gets lower as we age.  I remember walking around as a teenager, coat unzipped, no hat, and feeling totally comfortable.  Now, being slight of build and a tender but old age of 47, I get cold rather quickly...bone-chilling cold.  I think we try to push our own limitations on the kids, who, in my opinion, have a much different metabolism than we do as adults.  Sometimes I'm sitting around the apartment freezing my toushe off and my DD is running around in her underwear, sweating.  Still, and like other posters mentioned, we live in a very cold winter climate.  DD is only four and I feel that more often than not, I need to make decisions for her from a safety standpoint.  Again, it is not so much an argumentative decision as much as an "I will carry and accommodate when necessary" decision.  I think when she gets older she is more likely to understand the ramifications of her decisions.  Until then, I have to guarantee, in some respect, her comfort when we are out in the elements.