If You're an Atheist But Extended Family is Religious...

[not_telling]

Just something I've been thinking about since Christmas...

I am an atheist Jew.  DH is also an atheist and was raised Catholic/Episcopalian.  We always spend Xmas with DH's parents and Grandmother.  Before we start to eat our dinner on Christmas Eve, DH's family bow their heads and put their hands together in prayer and his dad says a "Father, Son & Holy Spirit" blessing.  DH and I just sit there respectfully, not bowing our heads or anything.  Anyway, DS is 2.5 now and so was much more aware of and wanting to be involved in everything that was going on.  When DH's dad was about to do the prayer, DH's mom told DS that we were going to pray and asked if he could make prayer hands.  In my head I though, "Hmm..this makes me a little uncomfortable..."  but DH and I didn't say anything.  We just watched DS during the prayer (he didn't make prayer hands).

So, I guess I'm wondering how others in similar situations have felt.  I know DS will develop an understanding of prayer when he's older and if it's something he chooses to do on his own then that's his choice.  I just feel weird about him going through the motions when he doesn't understand what it is/what it means.

On the other hand, he did help me light the Hanukkah candles this year and I said the Hebrew blessing each night - which actually is something I wouldn't say for many years because it felt hypocritical.  But, my Jewish heritage is important to me and I've since decided that since DS is half-Jewish it's important for him to hear Hebrew from time to time and gain knowledge of the (more popular) traditions of the Jewish culture.  (So he can understand all the Jewish jokes ).

[Sharlla]

well we made it very clear to all family that our children will not be doing any of that.  so it's ok for them to answer questions but they werent going to push their xian agenda on our kids.  they can't say anything about their god as fact but rather they believe in their god etc. 

I would have spoken up if a family member suggested my child to pray like "we dont practice your religion so we dont pray" or whatever.  i would be extremely annoyed if a family member did that to me knowing full well that we don't worship their god.  it just shows an utter lack of respect for me, my beliefs and for my authority as a parent.

[limabean]

Our families of origin aren't all that religious, but sometimes someone will pray, like DH's grandfather used to say a prayer before we ate a meal. I didn't mind if my kids put their hands together or bowed their heads during those prayers, and if they asked about them later I just said that it's something Great-Grandpa likes to do before a meal. Once they were old enough to understand, we'd talk about the ways in which some people from other religions and cultures are ceremonial about their food too. 

I would treat it like any other cultural practice they witnessed, and would teach them that they don't have to participate but they do have to be respectful. I figure they eat with us 3 times a day, and they eat with someone who prays a couple of times per year, so I'm not worried about any influence the prayers will have. 

[Owen'nZoe]

This is something we are constantly navigating. My sons are 6 and 4. My husband was raised Muslim but is an atheist, and I was raised Catholic (and evangelical Lutheran - which is not a very compatible pair) and consider myself agnostic. Our tolerance for involving the boys in religious rituals has actually been increasing in the past couple years, as we've have seen that saying a prayer with grandma does not a little believer make. ;)

When we are with DH's family, the boys love to put on hijab and "pray" next to their grandma. They don't know the actual prayers, or the meaning behind them (and they don't speak Arabic, so are unlikely to just pick anything up), but they do enjoy spending the time with their grandma. With my family, they don't get as much exposure to prayer (just Grace before holiday meals, and we handle it the way you do - just sit quietly and respectfully), but they have gotten a few Bible-story based picture books that they love. At first, we were going to quietly get rid of those, but as a student of literature, I just couldn't do it - I want them to have the cultural background they will need to understand Western Lit, and those Bible stories are really important in that sense. Anyway, we've always prefaced the stories with "Christians believe...", in the same way we'd preface stories from other cultural/religious heritages. It seems to me that the boys are able to appreciate the stories without believing they are anything but fiction.

In your case, I think you handled the prayer just fine. He's 2. Folding his hands through a prayer even once a year isn't going to indoctrinate him, and he is too young for it to be a hypocritical act. Next year, you'll know it is coming, and he will be old enough to really talk about it. You can tell him ahead of time that Grandma and Grandpa do 'x' during prayers, and that you'd like him to do 'y' during prayers (whether it be that you just want him to stand quietly and respectfully during the prayer, or want to leave it up to him to decide how to participate). As for the Menorah, I wouldn't find it incompatible with atheism, either. As you said, it is a part of your cultural heritage that you want to preserve.

[pumpkin]

I Think you handled the situation in the moment just fine. I would have a talk with the relatives about not encouraging your child to participate in religious rituals.

I know we are going to face this. Prayer is my hill to die on. I find it absolutely unacceptable. I will sit quietly when we are in someone else's home and I will teach my DD to do the same, but I don't want anyone trying to make her think it is a good activity. When she is old enough I will explain my reasoning. When she is older still she can make her own decision and I will support it, but I will do my darndest not to have her sucked in at an impressionable age.

[not_telling]

Appreciating the responses so far. 

I guess one thing I should add is that I don't think DH's family knows that he's an atheist.  Nor do I think they know I am, although I've alluded to it from time to time.  But they know that we don't belong to any church/synagogue and DS wasn't baptised (DH's brother had his daughter baptised even though he seems totally non-religious) and didn't have a b'ris.

[Smithie]

If the kids are lighting the hannukiah in your house, then "prayer hands" at Grandma's house is also OK. Definitely NOT a hill to die on. You may come to other hills at some point, but you are not there yet. 

My husband is an atheist, and I'm a Jewish mom of enthusiastically Jewish kids who doesn't know if God exists or not. But I'm pretty sure my MIL exists , and if she wants to pray we pray, and if she gives me an icon that belonged to her mother I hang it, and when she divided up her rosaries and saint's medals among the grandkids I stuck them in the baby boxes with all their other sentimental treasures. To me, this is a respect/courtesy thing, not a theology thing. My DH regularly tells the kids that he doesn't believe in God, but would be the first person to make sure that they were respectful when an older person (of any faith) was praying at the start of a holiday meal or at a wedding or any other circumstance where they are exposed to non-Jewish prayer. During Jewish prayer, they'll tell HIM to shut up. 

[MsFortune]

It's a hard spot to be in.  My family (mostly my father) is very religious (Catholic) and I'm very openly atheist.  I'd even say I am an evangelical atheist.  So I walk a fine line between not wanting to make things into a big deal and be respectful of their beliefs and traditions, and wanting my beliefs and traditions to be respected.  My oldest is 2, so it has not really come up yet, but I see big battles ahead.

Not to derail the thread, OP

<<SNIP- MDC told me I had to edit to remove what they consider to be objectionable content>>

For what it's worth, I'm anti-circ, but not really an "antactivist".  I mostly got into it with him because I'd been boozing.  :)

Edited by MsFortune - 1/4/11 at 8:43pm

[not_telling]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smithie 

My husband is an atheist, and I'm a Jewish mom of enthusiastically Jewish kids who doesn't know if God exists or not. But I'm pretty sure my MIL exists , and if she wants to pray we pray,  

This made me laugh, Smithie.  I agree not a hill to die on.  I'm just trying to process the reaction I had in my head along with the knowledge that DS is only 2.5 and we're just at the beginning of the whole Exposure to religion thing.

Edited by not_telling - 1/4/11 at 11:43am

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by not_telling 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smithie 

My husband is an atheist, and I'm a Jewish mom of enthusiastically Jewish kids who doesn't know if God exists or not. But I'm pretty sure my MIL exists , and if she wants to pray we pray,  

This made me laugh, Smithie.  I agree not a hill to die on.  I'm just trying to process the reaction I had in my head along with the knowledge that DS is only 2.5 and we're just at the beginning of the whole Exposure to religion thing.

My situation is a bit different, but I'm very very close to part of my extended who is very religious, Orthodox Catholic to be precise, and I'm not really religious.  Not really agnostic/atheist, but not religious either.  They say grace before every meal, and don't do prayer hands but hold hands around the table.  I don't say grace, and I don't do the "father, son, ghost (ummm...thats not right.  you get the point though right?!)" thing, but I do bow my head and hold hands.  The rest of my family does the same when visiting, and we see it as a respectful way to participate in a meal with them. 

I guess (if it were ME - you making a different choice would be no less valid) I would allow them to teach your children "prayer hands", and how to say grace if your children are interested.  If they don't want to do prayer hands (like, they tell grandma "no" when she tells them to at a meal) you can gently intervene and tell her firmly but nicely that its his choice.  After all, its possible that our children will make different religious choices than us later in life, so I feel like its worth it to allow them to explore it with our guidance early on too.

[chaoticzenmom]

This exactly.  You did great in the moment.  It's fine to be respectful of their prayer in your presence, but to ask your son to pray was disrespectful of them.  They took advantage of the moment and they knew it or they would have also asked you and your husband to put your hands together.  You need to have a direct talk with them about this issue. 

Originally Posted by pumpkin 

I Think you handled the situation in the moment just fine. I would have a talk with the relatives about not encouraging your child to participate in religious rituals.

I know we are going to face this. Prayer is my hill to die on. I find it absolutely unacceptable. I will sit quietly when we are in someone else's home and I will teach my DD to do the same, but I don't want anyone trying to make her think it is a good activity. When she is old enough I will explain my reasoning. When she is older still she can make her own decision and I will support it, but I will do my darndest not to have her sucked in at an impressionable age.

[colsxjack]

My in-laws are religious. Pretty liberal Catholics. At first I had a hard time with it all. They do pray and say grace. They do go to church. When we visit at Christmas we also go to church. I absolutely hate it, but we go because my wife's little brother is in the choir and because it makes the mother-in-law happy. I am old enough to deal with it all and not be influenced, but it's very boring. I wish they were baptist or something, so at least the singing would have a beat or something. ;)

I am nervous about what to do about our DD as she gets older. Right now she is 18 months, so I do not worry about it since she really isn't influenced by it all yet. But as she gets older I do not want her going to church until she is old enough to deal with it all without being influenced. One of my big issues is that it is a Catholic church and I have a big issue with Catholicism. In that religion my daughter, her whole existance and our whole family unit is unnatural and in need of healing. We are a transgendered family and she was created by IVF. Although my in-laws church is fairly liberal as far as catholic churches go, they are still homophobic and against IVF. I don't want her to feel bad about her family or herself.

When it comes to praying and grace, I sit quietly until it is done. I do not say ahem. I do not argue with the family about their beliefs, but they do know that I do not believe in God. They have children that are still young (8-16 yr olds) and those children know that I do not believe in God. They were shocked at first, but have come to accept that not everyone is religious.

[limabean]

Originally Posted by colsxjack 
When it comes to praying and grace, I sit quietly until it is done. I do not say ahem.

(bolding mine)  It would be sort of hilarious if that's what you did say. 

[Minxie]

My family found out for the first time this Christmas that I am not a Christian. They found out by accident as my sister overheard my four-year-old DS ask me:

"Mom, is Aunt Bethie a Christian?"

"Yes, she is."

"But we're not Christian, right?"

"No, we're not Christians."

"I bet Aunt Bethie's sad that she has to follow the rules of her God."

I'm fairly sure she mentioned it to her husband 'cause he quizzed me about it later and I deflected his questioning. "Pass the bean dip, please!"
 

Originally Posted by not_telling 

Appreciating the responses so far. 

I guess one thing I should add is that I don't think DH's family knows that he's an atheist.  Nor do I think they know I am, although I've alluded to it from time to time.  But they know that we don't belong to any church/synagogue and DS wasn't baptised (DH's brother had his daughter baptised even though he seems totally non-religious) and didn't have a b'ris.

[lifeguard]

I honestly don't know if my Mom is atheist or agnostic. We certainly never practiced a religion. But she always left it somewhat open for us & let us have a variety of experiences. We went to church with close friends some times (catholic), with my grandmother at other times (mormon), sent us to a catholic school ('cause it was closer) & answered any questions we had.

As it turned out neither my brother or I decided to accept a religion into our lives (I'm atheist, I'm unsure what his status is).

We will likely do the same with ds - if others want to share their religion with him it's a good way for him to learn about those religions, about what others believe & to help him make up his own mind about his beliefs.

Some people get a lot of peace & contentment from having a religion to form their lives. Sometimes I wish I had that & if one day ds can find that with a religion than I don't want to stand in the way of it.

[2lilsweetfoxes]

I have the opposite "problem"--my husband and I are Southern Baptist:  church attending, praying, the whole she-bang and are raising our three kids in the faith.  His entire family is SB.  My family on the other hand, well, despite some SB background (as to why I'm comfortable with it), is pretty much "do your own thing" with a few members, such as my brother, actually being atheist.  At first in the name of "being respectful", I would tiptoe around the whole religion issue.  Now, I don't hit him upside the head and try to convert him, but, for example: my car, my music--if I want to play the Christian station, that's my beeswax...but, I do ask the person if it's okay and if they say they'd rather not listen to that station, I'll find the local jazz/classical station or just turn the radio off.  If he and his kids are at my house and my kids want to watch, say, Veggie Tales (a Christian kid's program with "humanized" vegetables that my kids love), I'll ask him if it is okay if his kids watch it or I will urge them to select a different movie or do something that does not involve the television.  And, he knows that if his kids spend the night on Saturday night, he'd best pick them up by 9 am on Sunday, because that is when we leave for church--and if he doesn't get them, we are dragging them along.  Same as above goes for any family or friends that come over.

[AtYourCervices]

When I was still working my DD was babysat by a very religious couple. My daughter ate dinner at their house, and occasionally my husband and I joined them for dinner. The couple would pray, and they taught my DD to clasp her hands together, bow her head and say grace. I thought it was cute and I appreciated that my daughter was exposed to this religious culture. Yes, they played mainly Christian music in the house, and sometimes watched Veggie Tales or read her religious based kids books. Not a problem.

I'm atheist, but I still own a veggie tales video and DD3 watches it. I have some religious based kids books. My kids each have a radio in their own bedrooms and they're free to turn on whatever station they wish (DD2 liked to listen to Christian stations when she was younger).

I understand that my daughter's babysitters were proselytizing to her and encouraging her to practice their religious customs while in their home. They proselytized to me and my husband as well. But they were kind about it, not pushy. They lived their lives as they preached. Part of their religion includes spreading the gospel. They believe with all of their hearts that there is a heaven and there is a hell. They believe that if you are not saved you will go to hell. Imagine if I was going to cross the street and I didn't look both ways, but you were behind me and saw a car speeding in the direction of where I was about to be. You'd yell at me or try to grab me out of the way, right? To this couple, hell is real and it's a heck of a lot more eternal than merely getting hit by a car. So go ahead proselytizers... preach to me! I understand you're practicing your beliefs. But don't fight me if I insist on walking in front of that car, or I might just drag you under the car as well.

I say follow their customs when in their home, and proper etiquette requires making (reasonable) accommodations for their practices in your own home as well. If you know they like to pray before meals, give them the opportunity to pray before meals in your home. Suggest it. Offer it. It doesn't hurt, and it can only help relations. Go ahead and clasp your hands, bow your head, and let somebody else who is more comfortable with it say grace. It's okay to encourage your child to do the same. You won't confuse your atheist children if you explain to them it's a courtesy.

Yes, it may make you feel uncomfortable. Think of that moment of prayer as a time to be mindful. That doesn't have to be religious.

[SubliminalDarkness]

Totally been there. DH was raised Muslim, now agnostic. I was raised Mormon, now agnostic. Both our extended families are religious. We're the odd ducks. 

My parents do pray before dinner. They were at our house for a week at Christmastime, and they prayed before all family meals. I don't make my kids fold their arms, I just expect them to sit still and quiet. I usually make faces at them, lol. We've had to occasionally have talks with our families about not pushing religion on the kids, how we're letting them find their own way. 

By the same token, the approach we have chosen is to not have a "family belief." There's what daddy believes, what mama believes, and the kids will get to decide for themselves someday what they believe. 

[redpajama]

I think this can be such a difficult issue.  My husband and I were both raised in Christian homes (he more than I) and are atheist.  When his parents visit, they often do things like pray (aloud) before meals, and read the kids books/show them DVDs with religious themes (a lot of Veggie Tales).  At first it bothered me, but then I thought about it and figured I tell my kids all sorts of "stories" that aren't true--Santa, fairies, Paul Bunyan, whatever.  I don't stop to specify that these are all just stories, but I'm honest with them when asked.  So when my 4-year-old asked me after a recent visit with her grandparents if God was real, I told her that no one could know that for sure, that some people thought so (like her grandparents) but that her dad and I didn't believe so.  That seemed to satisfy her.

My biggest issue with the grandparents so far was when they watched a video (of ours) with our kids: Science is Real (by There Might Be Giants--it's really great, by the way!!), and got all flustered when a song about evolution came on ("My Brother the Ape"), and then stopped the dvd to tell my kids that "not everyone believes this" and "Grammie and Gpa don't believe that we evolved from apes" and whatever.  I didn't make an issue of it, but I talked to my kids about it in the car on the way home.  That was the only instance in which I felt I needed to make a point of talking about what their grandparents had said to them--I don't feel the need to "undo" every god-is-good prayer before dinner or even their telling of "the Christmas story," but something about them trying to make Creationists out of them just *extra* rubbed me the wrong way.

Edited by redpajama - 1/4/11 at 7:21pm

[TiredX2]

Originally Posted by redpajama 

Science is Real (by There Might Be Giants--it's really great, by the way!!)

Thanks for the recommendation! I downloaded it on zune immediately and am listening to "Meet the Elements" now