Best way to de-stinkify 8 week old puppies...

[Kreeblim]

We just took in two adorable husky/collie mix puppies, but unfortunately they reek.  To give you some idea, we already have a 13 year old husky who spends most of his time on our couch, and hasn't been bathed in at least 4 years (though we do brush him and make sure he is pest free) and can go in the yard at will...he smells like a rose garden compared to these adorable little fur balls.  I don't know how you can get that much stink on you in 2 months.

They go to the vet at the end of the month for their initial check ups, spaying, and I just ordered Frontline for them because they are totally crawling with fleas.  The people we got the puppies from were neighbors of my sister's in-laws, so we don't know them very well, but it seemed like the mama dog was kept outside in a pen (which is how they got puppies), and maybe the puppies ended up with the stench and fleas from the pen.

I used a gentle puppy wash tonight on them, but I felt awful because the fleas just swarmed the poor things heads.  They do smell much better, but the original stench is still coming through (probably because I didn't want to soap their heads or keep them wet for too long after I saw what was happening with the flea swarm).   Are there any natural de-stinking remedies I could try?  I know they say to used tomato juice for skunk stink, but this is more like rancid dog B.O. mixed with old pee.  

At least our older dog and kids don't seem to care about the smell.  These puppies have blended right in to the family otherwise 

[plantnerd]

Other than bathing I'm not sure.  Those thick coats can really hold onto the funk.  If they are that covered in fleas though I would run not walk to the vet and get them a flea treatment.  8 week pups can die from flea infestation.

[SubliminalDarkness]

I'd shave them, flea treat them, and use shampoo in vast quantities. 

[Ola_]

I would give them a couple more thorough baths.  We have a double-coated dog also and she rarely needs a bath (an average of once a year) but when we first got her from the pound she was awfully dirty and stinky.  Literally your hand would be dirty after petting her.  After a good bath and some time on quality food and living indoors she cleaned right up.

And don't avoid bathing because of the fleas, actually if I recall correctly if you lather them up with shampoo and let it sit on their coat for a bit like that before rinsing, it can actually naturally kill some of the fleas.

Good luck!

[Mirzam]

The smell is coming from within. I recommend looking into using diatomaceous earth to remove the fleas rather than use chemicals like Frontline and other flea/tick medications, they are poisons that I wouldn't want around my animals. Fleas are an indicator of an animals over-all health. They are attracted to unhealthy, weak and very young animals and are a sign of a weakened immune system. Once the puppies are well and truly cleaned up, on a good quality food, the fleas shouldn't be an issue. Here are some other natural shampoos.

[Ola_]

Oh, and have you tested their poop for worms?  It's not unusual for puppies to have worms, especially ones coming from those conditions.

[Kreeblim]

I just got the Frontline in (we use Amazon Prime) so that's going on when they wake up in a bit here.  Their appointments are on the 21st, but this is the first time we've had puppies (our older boy was 5 when we adopted him) so it's very possible that I didn't communicate their condition to the vet very well.  I didn't even mention the fleas since they would have already been treated by the time of the appointment.  I'll call and see what they say.

They seem healthy to me other than maybe worms and needing their protectives so we can get them licenced by the city, but puppies are new to us even if I did work with dogs at shelters in high school and college.  We have a closet with a baby gate as the door that we are using as a "crate" at night and they go in and out to the yard with our older dog who is trying to show them what to do, but it's very akward for us because we never crated or house trained our huskie, he just let us know when he wanted out and when he wanted in.  We're already used to all the weird husky quirks, but if there's any other advice you have, we're open to it.

I think we're going to wait a couple of days for the Frontline to set, then use one of the spray and wipe puppy washes because the bath seemed to really scare them.  The collie in them was a short hair collie, so their coats are not as fluffy as our full Huskie and I don't think they'd get much out of being shaved.  We totally shaved our huskie a few years ago after he rolled all over dead fish at the beach and we couldn't bathe the fish stink out of him.  I think he still holds it against us.  When he hears us using clippers on the kids he starts wooing and doing his nervous bounce like we're hurting them.  

Mirzam, I am pretty sure that the stink is mostly on the outside because they would literally make your hand greasy and dirty when you petted them.  The bath did help a good bit (We used Earthbath natural puppy shampoo) and we might go with the wipes or the spray next.  We didn't use any anti-flea shampoo because they were all listed for puppies over 12 weeks.  I will look into diatomaceous Earth again (someone else recommended it for gardening already) but Frontline just isn't optional for us.  Our huskie got fleas extremely badly after a move several years ago, and not only did it spread so thickly through the house that the kids were getting bit up, but he was scratching himself bloody.  We tried every natural remedy available, but at some point it just had to stop.  Now that he's so old and less mobile (he has bad hips) I really feel like such an infestation would kill him and am not willing to risk it.

Ola, what do you feed yours?  I picked up a bag of Eukanuba Natural Lamb and Rice puppy food but our older boy eats the large breed formula in addition to treats and food we make.  I can't seem to keep the puppies from the large breed food or our older boy from the puppy food though because I want them to hang out as much as possible (except at night when they are gated into their crate-closet).  How important is it that they get special "puppy" food?  The stuff we make (maybe a couple of times a month) has beef, brown rice, carrots, canola oil and eggs but I don't want to upset their tummies too much.  

Thank you everyone!

[Mirzam]

By "inside" I mean it is probably coming from their diet, if they still smell after their baths. I can't really comment on the kibble because my puppy has only been raw fed since we got him at 9 weeks, and he still had his new puppy smell. At 6 months, he still doesn't smell, but raw fed dogs tend not to have that "doggy" smell that comes from kibble. However, I do know Eukanuba is a pretty low grade kibble, but I am sure those more knowledgeable about dried dog food can offer better suggestions.

[Kreeblim]

Originally Posted by Mirzam 

By "inside" I mean it is probably coming from their diet, if they still smell after their baths. I can't really comment on the kibble because my puppy has only been raw fed since we got him at 9 weeks, and he still had his new puppy smell. At 6 months, he still doesn't smell, but raw fed dogs tend not to have that "doggy" smell that comes from kibble. However, I do know Eukanuba is a pretty low grade kibble, but I am sure those more knowledgeable about dried dog food can offer better suggestions.

Hmmm...we just kind of went with the puppy version of the food our older boy eats, but if something else would work out better that would be good to know.  I don't know what they were feeding the puppies before we picked them up, but I really doubt it was very good for them.  Our husky is pretty stink-free and we don't bath him any more because his hips are so bad and he REALLY hates being wet so we didn't want him to hurt himself.  We alternate with the homemade food because he likes to have something in his dish all day, and that just isn't safe with anything but kibbel since we can be gone for hours at a time (rarely for a whole day) and we don't want rats or raccoons to come through the dog door in the summer.  I think it's because he was neglected and starved by his first owner.  To give you an idea he hovers around 55 pounds now that he's old and not very active (so he has much less muscle than a few years back) but when animal control rescued him originally they said he was around 35.  He's a grazer, so anything wet has a good chance of being left until it's crusty, but if he sees his dish is empty, he will be very nervous and upset until it gets filled, even if he has no intention of eating for several hours.  I think we just went with Eukanuba natural originally because he liked the sample we tried and it seemed to agree with him (which isn't always a given with such a picky guy).

[stardogs]

If you haven't already DON'T put Frontline on yet - it uses skin oils to spread over the body and those oils are washed off during a bath.  You need to wait *at least 24-48 hours* after the bath before you put Frontline on and wait *at least 24 hours* after application before bathing again!  I'd bathe them several more times, including their head (tearless shampoo for babies works for pups too), leaving the suds to sit for 10 mins at least once - that will go a looong way to killing the fleas even without Frontline and will help accelerate the destinking process.

Siblings are tough - I would not kennel them together and I would make sure they get time alone with your family and with the other sibling out of sight every day to ensure that they bond mostly with you and not the other puppy.  For housetraining, you'll have your hands full as well.  You might want to consider reading through Ian Dunbar's e-book for ideas on confinement (http://www.dogstardaily.com/free-downloads) and these articles on housetraining and other puppy issues: http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/#puppy .

Deworming will need to be high on your list - if possible, call your vet and see if you can get them in sooner than the 21st as they likely have tapeworms from the fleas and roundworms from mom and that can result in sickly pups pretty quickly, plus you'll need to make sure there are no other parasites lurking (many worms and parasites can be transmitted to humans).  Before you go, consider reading up on limited vaccine protocols, too, some vets will try to give them everything under the sun at that first appointment and given their compromised health state you'll want to consider vaccines carefully.  This looks like a good place to start: http://www.doglogic.com/vaccination.htm

A good puppy class is highly recommended!  To find a trainer, consider starting at the Association of Pet Dog Trainers Trainer Search (http://www.apdt.com/petowners/ts/default.aspx); read the article on how to select a dog trainer there as well.  You'll want to look for someone who uses positive reinforcement methods primarily; avoid any who emphasize being alpha/dominant or use physical or leash corrections, especially since you have young pups!

HTH!

[tinuviel_k]

Originally Posted by stardogs 

Deworming will need to be high on your list - if possible, call your vet and see if you can get them in sooner than the 21st as they likely have tapeworms from the fleas and roundworms from mom and that can result in sickly pups pretty quickly, plus you'll need to make sure there are no other parasites lurking (many worms and parasites can be transmitted to humans)

Yes yes yes! You really should get them into the vet ASAP for a fecal sample and worm check. A vet should be able to get you in this week, and bring a poop sample from each pup with you. They are 100% likely to have roundworms (which can be transmitted to humans through the feces on the grass), and if their flea infestation is that bad they probably do have tapeworms. You really want to nip this in the bud, as small puppies can get really sick from parasites.
Talk to your vet about a worming schedule: roundworms usually don't just go away after a single treatment: they stay dormant in the dog's tissues and then can come back. Roundworm eggs are swallowed by the dog and the larvae hatch out in the intestines. The larvae migrate out of the logs intestines and into the liver. They encyst in the liver for months or years! Then they migrate to the lungs, the dog coughs them up, swallows them, and back into the intestines they go to mate and lay eggs. Yummy.
Puppies are almost always born with roundworms because the mother dog is sure to have been infected during her life (probably as an infant as described below). When a bitch is pregnant the larva don't migrate to her lungs: they migrate to the fetus. After the pups are born the larvae migrate to the mammary glands and infect the pups again through the milk.

[Ola_]

Originally Posted by Kreeblim 

Ola, what do you feed yours?  I picked up a bag of Eukanuba Natural Lamb and Rice puppy food but our older boy eats the large breed formula in addition to treats and food we make.  I can't seem to keep the puppies from the large breed food or our older boy from the puppy food though because I want them to hang out as much as possible (except at night when they are gated into their crate-closet).  How important is it that they get special "puppy" food?  The stuff we make (maybe a couple of times a month) has beef, brown rice, carrots, canola oil and eggs but I don't want to upset their tummies too much.

I also feed a raw diet, so I'm not really that much help with kibble.  I think for the price of Eukanuba you can probably get a food with better ingredients if you'd like.  But adding fresh foods is a great thing to do so I'd definitely keep doing that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stardogs 

If you haven't already DON'T put Frontline on yet - it uses skin oils to spread over the body and those oils are washed off during a bath.  You need to wait *at least 24-48 hours* after the bath before you put Frontline on and wait *at least 24 hours* after application before bathing again!  I'd bathe them several more times, including their head (tearless shampoo for babies works for pups too), leaving the suds to sit for 10 mins at least once - that will go a looong way to killing the fleas even without Frontline and will help accelerate the destinking process.

Siblings are tough - I would not kennel them together and I would make sure they get time alone with your family and with the other sibling out of sight every day to ensure that they bond mostly with you and not the other puppy.  For housetraining, you'll have your hands full as well.  You might want to consider reading through Ian Dunbar's e-book for ideas on confinement (http://www.dogstardaily.com/free-downloads) and these articles on housetraining and other puppy issues: http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/#puppy .

Deworming will need to be high on your list - if possible, call your vet and see if you can get them in sooner than the 21st as they likely have tapeworms from the fleas and roundworms from mom and that can result in sickly pups pretty quickly, plus you'll need to make sure there are no other parasites lurking (many worms and parasites can be transmitted to humans).  Before you go, consider reading up on limited vaccine protocols, too, some vets will try to give them everything under the sun at that first appointment and given their compromised health state you'll want to consider vaccines carefully.  This looks like a good place to start: http://www.doglogic.com/vaccination.htm

A good puppy class is highly recommended!  To find a trainer, consider starting at the Association of Pet Dog Trainers Trainer Search (http://www.apdt.com/petowners/ts/default.aspx); read the article on how to select a dog trainer there as well.  You'll want to look for someone who uses positive reinforcement methods primarily; avoid any who emphasize being alpha/dominant or use physical or leash corrections, especially since you have young pups!

HTH!

I'll just add a big "yeah, that!" to everything Stardogs said.  It's tricky to raise puppies together and not end up with issues, and it takes at least twice as much time as one puppy would.

[Kreeblim]

Wow, lots of info so far!

I did end up seeing the Frontline timing on the box, but I gave them the drops because it was 25 hours since I had bathed them yesterday and the sheer amount of fleas that crawled to the surface during the first bath was kind of startling.  We'll be waiting a few days before using the wipe and spray stuff, but the smell isn't nearly as bad as it was so we will just deal with it until it's safe. 

Our vet did end up wanting them in for the worming tomorrow since we hadn't really told them how bad it was when we made the first appointment.  Everything else will still get done at the end of the month, but I will be looking into the vaxing issues.  I know we currently get distemper, rabies and a heartworm chew for our husky, and I had assumed that's all they'd be doing for the puppies, but I do want to be prepared in case there are others they actually need or do not need.  They're pretty reasonable in general and haven't tried pushing things on us in the past.  

The training stuff is all new to us so I'm starting from scratch there.  I'm really not concerned with them being able to follow orders off leash or anything, since we're in a place with leash laws anyway and we already had to husky proof the house and outside fence LONG ago.  We may have been lucky though, because he was super non-agressive, didn't bark much, and didn't destroy stuff and was friendly with other dogs at the dog park and kids everywhere.  He did things like digging in the yard, jumping a 5 foot fence, grabbing cheese sticks or cookies when we weren't looking and getting into trash (if we were stupid enough to leave the lid off) and other things that we were told were just "husky things" that would take a ton of training for questionable results...so we just kind of accepted that as a part of the package with him and adapted (We got a higher fence, a locked garbage enclosure, and put the garden in the front yard where he doesn't go).   Originally we were going to rescue another husky just so we would possibly get a similar mix of traits, but these guys were shelter bound otherwise, and from pictures of the father (we saw the mother in person) they do appear to be a straight collie/white huskie mix (though you never know for sure).

I never knew that sibling puppies would have issues :(  I guess we have a lot of reading to do!  The "puppy closet" seems to work at night, but since we're indoors most of the day right now due to the weather they do have accidents as we haven't gotten the timing down quite yet.  

I'm going to look a little deeper into the food situation.  With the new puppies, having the fresh food sit for too long might not be an issue anymore.  Our older boy would still have an issue with any changes though, so maybe they'll just eat different things.

Here they are btw!  This is before we took out the coats and fixed up their little gated closet area.  The one below is our older boy last year with my kitty who died a few months after that picture of what they think were brain tumors :(

 

[plantnerd]

I would add parvo to the rabies and distemper vaccines.

Are they same sex siblings or opposite sex?  I ask b/c I have had terrible issues with same sex dogs fighting as adults.  Not to scare you, I'm sure it's not universal, but more likely, especially within a "pack".

I also second the training-  start young, otherwise you will have 2 one year old puppies that you want to send the the "farm" LOL!

Although I must question a pp who recommended against alpha/leash correction training.  This is what we used for our dog and it worked wonderfully.  I know some ppl think it causes a fearful dog, but that has not been our experience at all.  She is a big powerful shepherd mix and really needed a firm hand in her younger days.  Mellowing out a little now at 5 yrs. (thanks gods)

[Ola_]

I agree, opposite sex puppies have a better chance of getting along later in life (the problems often start when they mature).  Having two females is the worst combination unfortunately, and seems to result in the worst fights.   If you have two females I would probably consider finding a good home for one of them, it's easiest when they're cute little puppies.  Of course two puppies of any kind will take a lot of work and individual time, but this would improve your odds.  Frequently if they don't get enough separate training time, individual attention from the humans, outings alone into the world to socialize them, one will become fearful and have a very hard time being anywhere alone.

Re: alpha/dominance training, there are much better training methods out there now, especially since the dominance theories that were used to develop those methods have been debunked.

[stardogs]

Alpha/correction-based methods can work for some dogs, but they do have a higher risk of behavioral side effects and are not recommended for puppies under 6 months of age due to their maturing bodies (leash corrections can damage the muscles and other structures in the neck, especially when a dog is young or choke chains are used).  As a PP mentioned, dominance based training is based on now outdated wolf studies.  This link should give you a bit more information about the problems with using dominance theory with domestic dogs: http://drsophiayin.com/philosophy/dominance/

I second the concern about same sex pairs - especially females.  Generally same sex pairs are more at risk of interdog aggression within the home, especially as they hit adolescence and social maturity (between 6 months and 3 years of age).  It doesn't always happen, but it is something to be aware of and yet another reason to teach siblings to learn to be away from each other without anxiety (separate crating, training time, exercise, etc.).

[greenmagick]

Oh alpha based training does definitely work, but WHY does it work.  Its not because of dominance and pack status, its because they get punished.  It can have a lot of negative fall out too..so why use it when there are better, safer and kinder ways.

Yes, littermates are tough!  And two females can be really tough.  I just kind of skimmed as today is crazy, but if you havent already, check out Dunbars Before and After You Get Your Puppy

Before

After

[Doodlebugsmom]

Originally Posted by stardogs 

I second the concern about same sex pairs - especially females.  Generally same sex pairs are more at risk of interdog aggression within the home, especially as they hit adolescence and social maturity (between 6 months and 3 years of age).  It doesn't always happen, but it is something to be aware of and yet another reason to teach siblings to learn to be away from each other without anxiety (separate crating, training time, exercise, etc.).

Not trying to hijack the thread, but is this more of a risk with litter-mates or dogs that are of similar age? I ask because we had two females (they were 5 years apart in age) and they were the best buddies ever. They never fought or anything. Not even close. The younger one died just over a year ago, and now we have a nearly one-year-old female and a nearly sixteen-year-old female. They seem to get along fine as well. They obviously enjoy each other. I have to wonder if we have just gotten lucky with this.

OP: One of your pups looks so much like my dog Hannah! She's the one who died last year. She was a husky mix too! I loved her like I've never loved a dog before. My relationship with her was one of the highlights of my life!
 

[stardogs]

Doodlebugs: Age spacing really helps reduce interdog conflict, especially in same gender pairs.  Littermates are at highest risk due to being the exact same age, dogs acquired within 6 months of age seem to be the next highest, and the risks decrease from there.  Breed can also play a role - as awesome as pit bulls can be with people, they are predisposed to dog aggression and same sex aggression, same with terriers, and to a bit more limited extent, herding breeds (mostly the females).  Some lines of dogs also have interdog problems via heredity - I know there's a line of Golden Retrievers who are often very dog-dog aggressive.

IME as a behavior professional, female to female conflicts are usually *much* more severe and difficult to solve than male to male conflicts.  It's often said that females fight to eliminate the other dog, males fight to determine status and once that is settled they usually are relatively easy to manage (though not always).  Neutering often helps male to male aggression, while spaying rarely has a positive effect on female to female aggression.

[Doodlebugsmom]

Originally Posted by stardogs 

Doodlebugs: Age spacing really helps reduce interdog conflict, especially in same gender pairs.  Littermates are at highest risk due to being the exact same age, dogs acquired within 6 months of age seem to be the next highest, and the risks decrease from there.  Breed can also play a role - as awesome as pit bulls can be with people, they are predisposed to dog aggression and same sex aggression, same with terriers, and to a bit more limited extent, herding breeds (mostly the females).  Some lines of dogs also have interdog problems via heredity - I know there's a line of Golden Retrievers who are often very dog-dog aggressive.

IME as a behavior professional, female to female conflicts are usually *much* more severe and difficult to solve than male to male conflicts.  It's often said that females fight to eliminate the other dog, males fight to determine status and once that is settled they usually are relatively easy to manage (though not always).  Neutering often helps male to male aggression, while spaying rarely has a positive effect on female to female aggression.

Excellent. Thank you for the info. Our current dogs are 14 years apart, so I guess that helps.  Our pup, Francie, is a Pyrenees/Husky mix, and she really shows the personality characteristics of the Pyrenees. She was a little food aggressive with our older dog when she first came to us (she was 3 months old!). We worked really hard with hand feeding them together (requiring eye contact with us before being given a piece of kibble) to feeding them in close proximity. They now share a bowl with no problem at all. We love the Pyrenees characteristics, and may add a Pyr rescue when our older dog isn't with us any more. I had pretty much decided that two female Pyrs probably wouldn't be the best idea.