Discouraged no more! Update

[vachi73]

My DH has a colleague whose wife is expecting their second child, first son, any day now. I had an opportunity to give her my intactivist talk in a non-threatening setting a few months ago, not long after they found out it was a boy. She claimed that she had never even considered the circ decision, that all that really matters is the father's family history of circ. I said very firmly, "No, that should not matter at all, period." She was flustered, and said, "oh, of course, you're right!" and that was more or less the end of it. I did offer to discuss it with her at any time, and did refer her to this forum ... but she never asked anything else of me, and I'm sure didn't follow up on this forum.

Fast forward to today, when the baby is imminently due, and she has been actively avoiding me for two-three months now. I am sure it is related to this topic and my vehemence.

To be clear, I do not in any way regret being somewhat animated in my discussion with her. I honestly thought that, given their AP/green/activist slant, they might be more easily swayed to leave baby intact than most of DH's other colleagues.

Mostly I am sad for the baby, whose welcome to the world is, in all likelihood, going to be filled with great pain. And also, I know how difficult a time she had breastfeeding their daughter, struggling significantly with low supply, etc. *sigh* It's like watching a train wreck in slow-motion.

Just looking for some empathy from my TCAC friends. Trying not to take the whole thing personally or feel like I have failed the sweet little boy.

Thanks for the vent!

Edited by vachi73 - 2/2/11 at 4:00pm

[tammylsmith]

You tried mama, that's all  you can do. Keep trying, because you never know when a seed has been planted. You won't win over them all, but if you don't try, you won't win any over.

[ammiga]

It's true, you won't save them all. But you will save some! And in turn, they will save some. My son is one of the boys saved by people like you, and there are many more like him. Keep talking, people are listening!

[buckeyedoc]

Keep talking! It was a coworker who got me to look into circumcision prior to the birth of my first son.

And I know how you feel. DH and I tried to talk BIL and SIL out of circumcising, and now they have five circumcised sons.

[vachi73]

Thanks, everyone! I really appreciate the support. And of course, I will keep talking about this!! I feel very passionately about it, and no amount of social pressure can shut me up (just ask my DH, ha ha)

On a brighter note, I have a close friend who just found out she is having a boy, and he will remain intact!! Not that I really "convinced" her -- but the fact that she has seen our boys naked on occasion (our kids all do swim lessons together) and knows they are all intact made her approach me about leaving their son intact, and I had the privilege to discuss it with her at length, and she is now a fierce intactivist! So there's a win. I'm going to focus on that instead.

[Jenivere]

I know it's hard. We tried to convince two different family members recently but they both did it anyways. One just had to bring it up last night and tried to tell me how it's better for babies. I was so angry I couldn't think straight and had to leave. 

[vachi73]

Colleague's wife just randomly emailed me re the "little man." she is 4 cm but no ctrx. Sigh. Not sure what to say...
Edited by vachi73 - 1/12/11 at 7:46am

[ElliesMomma]

that's a coincidence!! stay positive. there is hope yet!

email her back, keep the lines of communication open!!

tell her to call you if she needs any support after the birth.

[vachi73]

Good idea, ElliesMomma! I responded and told her to let me know if I could help before/during/after the birth, being somewhat "experienced." ha! I hope she will take me up on it, but it will be really, really hard for me if she wants help w/ breastfeeding after circ'ing...

[goinggreengirl]

I know how you feel. I talked to two different people about not circing their little boys and they both did. ::Sigh:: I just talked to a friend who is expecting her second little boy. Her first is circed (he was born before I did any research I could share) and I hope to convince her to leave her second (and any future) sons intact.

[vachi73]

Somewhat of an update ... still no baby. Friend has been emailing me updates at least twice a day, and I am definitely providing moral support. She is pretty vehement about not wanting an induction (she is overdue a few days now) nor an epidural if she can avoid it. There's still hope ... am trying to stay connected but not be pushy. CROSSING FINGERS!!

[MoonJelly]

I would go ahead and bring up circ again.  She must have re-opened the lines of communication for a reason.  My bet is she is doing some serious thinking about it but the DH is being a you-know-what.  

Maybe you can convince her to at least wait.  Anything you can do.  Tell her to wait and let breastfeeding get established first.  I have used this one before. 

Give her some "excuses" that will hold things off with her DH.  That's probably the most important thing.  Tell her if they can't agree, then they should not have it done.  Maybe tell DH how sometimes things go wrong and the penis gets botched up.  This is real and should put some fear into the DH. 

Good luck.

[vachi73]

Oh boy, I don't know if I can bring it up again. My DH might kill me, LOL. Knowing them, they are resolute already ... maybe her approaching me again means that they are resolutely leaving him intact?? Oh, one hopes. I don't even want to get my hopes up too much...I am so distracted today thinking about this.

Any suggestions of how I might work the topic into the email dialogue?? I can't see any way to do it w/o being very obvious/aggressive. Any other ideas??

[tammylsmith]

I like the idea of recommending establishing a breastfeeding relationship first.... maybe emphasizing that they could always put it off for a few months so the little guy get's proper pain meds and there is a little more medical history to work with (in case he is at risk for bleeding, god forbid, tell her you at least had to get that off your chest because you are so excited for her and thinking about it makes you want to keep everyone safe and happy!) Or suggest a pediatric urologist, since "OBs, or the medical residents this often gets pawned off on, could botch the job, and ugh I hear a botched circumcision such a pain (the whole thing is, of course a pain--in a very real way--for the baby, but that probably isn't what she's willing to hear)... you  know with the redo's and all... better to be safe than sorry" 

If you could even get her to just not have it done in the hospital, it might help. Buying time gets her used to the idea of his penis as it should be, and maybe you could have more chances to talk to her?

[mama24-7]

Originally Posted by vachi73 

Oh boy, I don't know if I can bring it up again. My DH might kill me, LOL. Knowing them, they are resolute already ... maybe her approaching me again means that they are resolutely leaving him intact?? Oh, one hopes. I don't even want to get my hopes up too much...I am so distracted today thinking about this.

Any suggestions of how I might work the topic into the email dialogue?? I can't see any way to do it w/o being very obvious/aggressive. Any other ideas??

i'd chickend out of bringing it up w/ my brother/SIL before their babe was born last sept.  i visited them in the hospital on a sunday when he was born on a friday night.  i point blank asked my brother, alone, if he was going to leave babe intact.  he said no, for all the usual reasons.  i practially begged him to leave him alone.  at one point he told my mother that the baby was "perfect."  i'd planned to use that, but don't think i ever did.  i just went into a monologue about all the things/reasons why its crazy.  he mentioned that the consent form said he'd get pain meds & i told him that he wouldn't b/c then they sell the foreskin but can't if meds are used..  he said the consent said they don't sell it.  i said, "how would you know if they did."  by the time i was done talking, he said his stomach hurt.  i thought good!  your baby might hurt a whole lot worse!  i also, likely w/ a red face, told both of them of the pain, etc. that my dh's circ causes me during. every. single. encounter.  please don't do this to your son/his partners!

i then went to talk to SIL who was holding sleeping newborn.  i thanked her a couple of times for listening & explained that i'd rather have her mad at me for saying this stuff than tell me down the road she wished i had.  she thanked me for saying the stuff b/c she said she didn't know. 

now, i have no idea if they left him alone or not.  he's a very laid back baby so either they broke him when they circ'd him or he's just that way.

i had planned to offer to pay them to keep him intact.  i forgot to say that.  not sure how high i would have gone, but i will pay someone if that would keep their baby whole.  honestly, i was shocked my brother listened for one minute let alone 30 min or so.  he hates me.  and then he told me to talk to SIL about it.  it went surprisingly well.  i'm going to keep the option of talking to brand new parents in my tools for this fight for the future.  others have said that they'd be pissed if someone approached them immediately post-partum but now that i've done it, i think all the wonderful hormones flowing through mom & dad may just help.  remind them of the perfect baby they're holding, no need to alter at all.

good luck!

sus

[Night_Nurse]

Any news yet???

If someone is just too uncomfortable to bring up circ to someone, they could always invite them to the forum at Mothering and tell them it discusses all things parenting/baby related. At least they will be exposed to the CAC forum. It's better than not saying/doing anything at all.

And there are plenty of intactivists on Facebook, Twitter & Myspace who will send a pro-intact message out to someone and not mention your (you being the requester/nervous friend) name.

Just a thought.

[vachi73]

As far as i know, no baby yet. I sent a message last night to check on her, but no response. Could be at hospital by now. I assume i will get a broadcast email after he is born, even if just forwarded from my dh (the obligatory company-wide FYI of name, stats, etc.) so no update.

In retrospect, i shouldve sent them a penis pack, but didnt. They wouldve known it was from me, but who cares? They send me solicitations for money for their "stuff..." sigh.

I did refer her here, but doubt she visited. I ALWAYS recommend TCAC, you guys are way smarter than i am!!

Was feeling more optimistic, but not so much now. Will let you know when i hear anything...im sure there will be a drop-dead induction date at some point, but i dont know if/when that will be set...

Thanks for asking!

EDITED to add ... still no baby. Induction date not set, could be another week (!! which, FWIW, I think could be pushing the limits of what is reasonable, but it's their decision and their doctor's advice, so I'm not offering any input on that!) Gave some BF advice, and slipped in two different times the importance of NOT doing anything that could interrupt the bf relationship.

Who knows? I feel like I've done what I can, and I'm going to have to live with myself, regardless of their decision.

That said, I am still crossing my fingers and hoping/praying for that baby!!
Edited by vachi73 - 1/17/11 at 4:00pm

[vachi73]

Baby has arrived. Besides brief email, no cntact with me, tho another friend was called. I take this as a very negative sign, since the called friend allowed her son to be circ'd bc dad wanted to match. Sigh. Feeling almost physically ill. Only encouraging sign was that email referred to baby as "perfect," but that likely reflects underlying competitive streak. Sigh. Did i memtion physically ill??

[Night_Nurse]

Don't feel bad, mama. You did all you could by providing her with some info. I hope you feel good about that! You may never know if she circed him or not. I have given info to friends before and never found out what they decided. There are some parents who do opt to keep babe intact but don't feel comfortable discussing anything genital related. Don't worry, you did a good thing but now it's out of your hands.

[MoonJelly]

IME, they all say that.  As I have said many times, I am 0 and 5, and now probably 0 and 6 in Feb.  They all say that.  Maybe there's some psychology there I don't know. 

*Hugs* is all I can say.  So many of us have been there. 

Have you seen this?

It made me feel a little better about things yesterday.  Like that we will eradicate this. 

Originally Posted by vachi73 

Baby has arrived. Besides brief email, no cntact with me, tho another friend was called. I take this as a very negative sign, since the called friend allowed her son to be circ'd bc dad wanted to match. Sigh. Feeling almost physically ill. Only encouraging sign was that email referred to baby as "perfect," but that likely reflects underlying competitive streak. Sigh. Did i memtion physically ill??