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Isn't it illogical not to vaccinate? - Page 2

post #21 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by ma2two View Post

For example, most infant deaths will be officially labelled SIDS, even when it's pretty clear that it was from the vaccine.

 Would you mind providing a link?

post #22 of 69

.


Edited by member234098 - 6/12/12 at 12:39pm
post #23 of 69

Please dont quote Whale.to articles. They discredit us all.

post #24 of 69

Dr Sears book was far too liberal. I do not believe the risks of not vaccinating are higher than that of vaccinating.

 

I would look at each individual vaccination. Then I would look at what makes up the so-called death rates from the diseases. I would assume that there are no true accurate records of complications from the shots. Then I would ask...would I as an adult get these shots? For me to give my child a shot, the shot has to pass these tests. The biggie is, would I get the shot? If not, then why would I give it to my infant? Most shots given to infants today were never given to todays adults as babies. Those that were have worn off. (the DTP was around long ago, but it would have worn off by now). The death rates from the diseases are often faulty. Sometimes, they are supposedly collected in countries that really do not keep statistics. If they were even collected here, sometimes, like with the DTP, the people who supposedly died from Pertussis actually were people where the child's parents failed to care properly for their children. The children never once went to the doctor until they were dead essentually. They were living in extreme poverty and did not have proper heat, plumbing, or otherwise. Then I look at how the shot is made and what is in the shot. If there is anything questionable, I will not allow it. How successful is the shot?

 

IF the shot passes all my tests, then I still wait until after 3. I get myself the shot. Any shot any of my children get, I will get first. I never get why any parent would get shots for their children that they did not get for themselves. Seriously...that one baffles me.

post #25 of 69
Thread Starter 

too liberal with which numbers?

 

I just ordered "Make an Informed Vaccine Decision" I'd like to compare the numbers with The Vaccine Book.

post #26 of 69
/

Edited by member234098 - 6/10/12 at 9:54pm
post #27 of 69

For me, I have personal history of  vaccine reactions, as well as a handicap sister who I STRONGLY suspect, due to her symptoms as a baby, as being vaccine damaged.  At over 40 yrs old she's still in diapers being cared for by my parents.

 

I didn't make any connections about vaccines being harmful until I reacted as an adult to a vaccine.  I was a student at Mayo Clinic, and they claimed to required vaccines (not true, but my teachers insisted that I would be thrown out of their program if I didn't receive the vaccines--that deception alone makes me furious).  I received the 1st HepB and tetanus vaccines, and within a day developed a huge golfball size abscess under my arm and in my groin area.  When I called in about it, saying I'd reacted, the nurse got all angry and annoyed and said if I wanted to have it looked at it would be on my own dime (it was "free" for me as a Mayo student to receive the shots).  As a student going full-time to their program I didn't have a penny to spare!  I was outraged they required me to get a shot, then make me pay for it when I reacted to it.  I called a few times, insisting that their attitude was not right and they need to see me, but the nurses were always irate and annoyed that I had the NERVE to claim I reacted to a vaccine!!  Complete rudeness and not at all caring that I was in pain and worried.  And it's not like I was an outsider, I was one of their own Mayo students!

I endured the pain of the abscesses a few weeks until I finally took some homeopathic medicine which resolved them.  I'm still furious about this incident...!!

 

A PP stated don't expect help from the doctors if there's a vaccine reaction.  100% agreement here!

 

This incident made me question my own medical history, and I'm convinced I had a small stroke due to vaccines as a baby, which caused my left eye to turn inward and the left side of my mouth to become weak as well--lots of baby and toddler pics of me with a big grin, but turned up only on the right side.  I was always told I was born cross-eyed.  But I carefully looked at my baby pics, and in fact I was not born with this problem.  My eyes are normal facing at birth, and my smile is both-sided.   It's not til I'm months older that all my pics are cross-eyed and crooked mouthed.  The timing of my vaccines correlate well to the pictures of my worsening condition.  And I had hip problems on the left side as a toddler as well.  I'm sure my parents never even questioned vaccines.  Three eye operations later, I still have issues with my left eye facing where it's supposed to, and I get eye strain very easily.

 

For me, when I have children, non-vaccing is the only logical choice.  Family history contraindicates them.

post #28 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovebeingamomma View Post

  The poster who mentioned getting vaccines for yourself, which ones do you get?

 

 



I think this was me. DH and I were vaccinated according to the relevant schedules as children. As adults we have variously had ADT and MMR boosters, Heb B series and flu vax. We both work in high risk occupations and are required by our employers to have certain vaccinations if we want to remain working in our areas of choice.

 

IMO vaccines do help to prevent or reduce the severity of some diseases *but* we are sufficiently concerned with the potential risks that we are not prepared to vaccinate our baby at this stage. Also I did not have a flu shot while I was pregnant.

 

People talking about it has come up for both DH and I. I go to a couple of mother's groups and when the babies are at the vaccination ages people ask "How did J go with her vaccinations?" or "Has J had her 4 month shots yet?" It's nothing sinister, just mummy chat. I just say she's not vaccinated and so far it's only led to a discussion once. I have two specific examples of my concerns which I always start with and no-one has questioned me further so far. 

post #29 of 69



I am aware that this is the non-vaxing forum.  My understanding is that most members of this board make their decisions about vaxes based on science, so I don't think that my request for proof to back up someone's scientific claim is a violation of the intent or spirit of this board. 

 

Thank you for providing those links!  But what I was actually looking for was proof of what the poster said, that most cases of death from vaccine are mislabeled as a death from SIDS, even if it's obvious that it's from the vaccine.  The links you provided were a professional biography of a physician, someone's synopsis of the history of vaccinations, and a couple of stories about babies who died of SIDS and had gotten shots recently.  I am looking more for the proof that vaccinations were the cause of a death, and it was mislabelled a SIDS death.  Because the very nature of SIDS implies that the death of the child would take place close to a scheduled vaccination, as these are deaths in infants and infants often have monthly vaccinations.  Again, I am interested in seeing the causation, not correlation, if that's available.  TIA to anyone who can help!

post #30 of 69
Thread Starter 

I'm not basing my decision on whether SIDS, or Autism, have a direct correlation to vaccines.  I'm sure there's logical arguments on both sides, but I'm just looking at the more solid information I can get my hands on.  I've learned a lot since posting this...and continuing to learn...

post #31 of 69

T


Edited by member234098 - 6/10/12 at 9:48pm
post #32 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by miriam View Post

That is more than a biography.  There are links to Dr. Larry Baraff who conducted and wrote the study linking DPT to SIDS in the late 1970s and early 1980s in Los Angeles County.

 

Baraff et al.'s finding of a possible temporal association between DTP and SIDS (examined further, e.g., here, here, and here) doesn't exactly justify the assertion that "most infant deaths will be officially labelled SIDS, even when it's pretty clear that it was from the vaccine."

 

[ETA.--Regarding the silently edited-in second paragraph and list of articles, in particular Cody et al. (with Baraff and Cherry on board), some remarks from two of the principals eight years down the line are here. The point of the 1948-1970 items is unclear to me, as is the modern-day relevance of DPT in the first place.]


Edited by Otto - 1/9/11 at 12:48pm
post #33 of 69
Thread Starter 

How interesting, when I did a lot more digging regarding the risk of a Pertussis death, the risks DO NOT outweigh the benefits of the DTaP for my baby (risk assement based on my personal situation with factors that don't effect everyone) I realize my baby may GET Pertussis, but as someone else said, nursing my child back to health is more reasonable to me than taking a greater risk of permanent damage to my child when they may have otherwise been healthy.

 

So I take back my orginal thought, there's not way to prove that it's "illogical" to not vaccinate.  That's such a broad statement.  Taking each vaccine/illness on it's own, and determining YOUR child's risk, is the only way to determine the logical conclusion.  In my case, I have a lot more research to do, but for Pertussis, not vaccinating is the most logical decision.

 

thanks for the all positive posts!


Edited by lovebeingamomma - 1/9/11 at 2:51pm
post #34 of 69


I'm glad you feel like you're making progress!  It can be so hard, because sometimes the specific figures you want just aren't available, yk?  And even when they are available, so many people distrust them.  Would you mind elaborating on your formula?  It looks like you're saying that the odds of your baby experiencing Death + Coma + Brain Damage from the vaccine are greater than your baby experiencing Death from Pertussis.  Am I reading that correctly?  And to be honest, I have no idea what you mean when you say "counting in more factors then just 5 million births divided by the average deaths per year".  Why 5 million births? 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovebeingamomma View Post

How interesting, when I did a lot more digging regarding the risk of a Pertussis death (for my baby, counting in more factors then just 5 million births divided by the average deaths per year), and using only the conservative figure on the cdc.gov website for the risk of serious reaction, the risks DO NOT outweigh the benefits of the DTaP for my baby.  It's ironic, the cdc.gov website is written in a way to downplay the serious risk, and with their conservative figure (I'm not taking into account the 1 in 15000 chance of a moderate reaction), they actually prove that the odds are my baby is more likely to suffer from a coma or permanent brain damage from the DTaP, then death from Pertussis.  I realize my baby may GET Pertussis, but as someone else said, nursing my child back to health is more reasonable to me than taking a greater risk of permanent damage to my child when they may have otherwise been healthy.

 

So I take back my orginal thought, there's not way to prove that it's "illogical" to not vaccinate.  That's such a broad statement.  Taking each vaccine/illness on it's own, and determining YOUR child's risk, is the only way to determine the logical conclusion.  In my case, I have a lot more research to do, but for Pertussis, not vaccinating is the most logical decision.

 

thanks for the all positive posts!

post #35 of 69
Thread Starter 

Hey, I used Dr. Sears formula using 5 millions live births in the equation.  I have a whole formula of how I came to my conclusion, but decided not to post it because of the anti non-vaxers lurking here, I'm not to thrilled with some of the responses I've gotten on a couple of my threads. 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by heathergirl67 View Post


I'm glad you feel like you're making progress!  It can be so hard, because sometimes the specific figures you want just aren't available, yk?  And even when they are available, so many people distrust them.  Would you mind elaborating on your formula?  It looks like you're saying that the odds of your baby experiencing Death + Coma + Brain Damage from the vaccine are greater than your baby experiencing Death from Pertussis.  Am I reading that correctly?  And to be honest, I have no idea what you mean when you say "counting in more factors then just 5 million births divided by the average deaths per year".  Why 5 million births? 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovebeingamomma View Post

How interesting, when I did a lot more digging regarding the risk of a Pertussis death (for my baby, counting in more factors then just 5 million births divided by the average deaths per year), and using only the conservative figure on the cdc.gov website for the risk of serious reaction, the risks DO NOT outweigh the benefits of the DTaP for my baby.  It's ironic, the cdc.gov website is written in a way to downplay the serious risk, and with their conservative figure (I'm not taking into account the 1 in 15000 chance of a moderate reaction), they actually prove that the odds are my baby is more likely to suffer from a coma or permanent brain damage from the DTaP, then death from Pertussis.  I realize my baby may GET Pertussis, but as someone else said, nursing my child back to health is more reasonable to me than taking a greater risk of permanent damage to my child when they may have otherwise been healthy.

 

So I take back my orginal thought, there's not way to prove that it's "illogical" to not vaccinate.  That's such a broad statement.  Taking each vaccine/illness on it's own, and determining YOUR child's risk, is the only way to determine the logical conclusion.  In my case, I have a lot more research to do, but for Pertussis, not vaccinating is the most logical decision.

 

thanks for the all positive posts!


 
post #36 of 69

from what i recall (i read the book 2 or 3 years ago), dr.sears doesn't calculate the risk of contracting a vaccine-preventable disease correctly. the correct calculation is to put incidence (of your choice: death, death +serious damage, whatever) over the entire unvaccinated population. you'd calculate unvaccinated population by tallying the actual number of unvaccinated, and the percent of vaccinated for whom the vaccine can be expected to confer insufficient immunity (usually in the range of 5 to 25% if the population, depending on the vaccine.

 

so, unless there's a new edition that corrects his mistake, the risks he gives are way off.

post #37 of 69
Thread Starter 

ok...I'm open to hearing how others have calculated the risk...can you give me an example of figures to show me how it would be calculated?  I'm a little confused how I'm suppose know the % of unvaccinated...

post #38 of 69


Me too.  Especially when there's so many variables... completely unvaxed, only one vax, unvaxed until age 4, etc.  And is it using the population of the world, or just your country?  And is the risk different in your area of the country?  I have a hard time answering all of these questions, too.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovebeingamomma View Post

ok...I'm open to hearing how others have calculated the risk...can you give me an example of figures to show me how it would be calculated?  I'm a little confused how I'm suppose know the % of unvaccinated...

post #39 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovebeingamomma View Post

I'm a little confused how I'm suppose know the % of unvaccinated...

 

U.S. Vaccination Coverage Reported by NIS (see the "Articles" links if you're looking for the totally unvaccinated figure; it's basically 0.4%-0.6%).

post #40 of 69

This is also a good link for studies and papers on vaccines and the health problems they may cause. There are a couple opinion peices and meta analysis', but thats up to you to sort through.

 

http://www.greenmedinfo.com/search/node/vaccines

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