Dealing with a narcissistic MIL... help me set boundaries

[MunchiesMom]

I'm having a hard time dealing with my (un diagnosed officially) narcisisstic MIL. I can share more background at another time, but my basic complaints are that she disrespects us. She over steps boundaries, is selfish and a major control freak. She recently verbally attacked me, DH and my parenting decisions and our lifestyle...all infront of DS.

The inlaws are in a three month time out but I need help determining what happens after the time out. How do you set boundaries with a narcissist? Do you spell out what's OK or not? Do you give them the rules and consequences in advance? Or do you not communicate, since in their screwed up mind there's really no point, and Just cut them off as soon as they overstep their boundary?

TIA!!

[HollyBearsMom]

Can you clarify what you mean by your ILs are in a 3 month time out?  Is this self imposed?  Did you decide this? Did they? What does an an adult time out look like? It sounds so bizarre I want to make sure I understand, LOL! 

[gbailey]

Is the 3 month time out self-imposed? Are you not speaking to them at all or just not having them around DS? Just wanted some clarification.

If you've spelled out things before and they've just ignored your requests I say show through your actions. If the talking doesn't help, show what you mean.

[Linda on the move]

Ive cut family members out before, and I find it takes a lot of energy. Personally, brief infrequent contact with clear boundaries and no emotional expectations is easier. In you case, I'd recommend letting her know that seeing you guys is conditional on not discussing your parenting style. Then if she brings it up, say something like "I can see how you could feel that way, but none the less, that's what we've decided to do."

Part of the problem may be your or your dh wanting her approval. When you are both really over that, she'll have no more power.

(but I could be way off)

[MariaMadly]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move 


Part of the problem may be your or your dh wanting her approval. When you are both really over that, she'll have no more power.

(but I could be way off)

The hugest MIL problems in my life have been the ones I married!  :)

My MIL is extremely self-absorbed also.  As far as boundaries, things went most smoothly when we'd do the smile-and-nod and just present her with our decision as a done deal.  Lots of pass-the-bean-dip, too.  She didn't like it -- we weren't letting her call the shots -- but it's kept us relatively sane and our boys are protected from her.  She's got an all or nothing attitude, though, so our attempt to maintain contact but keep it non-contentious hasn't been very successful.  I describe it as someone I want to invite to my living room but who insists on coming into my bedroom or behaving like a martyr.

[A&A]

hang up on her, or leave her house every time she's disrespectful. 

And yeah, once you have dh on your side, it all gets much easier.

[MunchiesMom]

Sorry, I should have clarified. I'm emotionally so exhausted from her games and aggressive behavior that my hubby and I agreed to take some time away from her and FIL.

We told them we need some time with no communication or visit so "we can heal our hearts." Of course she doesn't like this but so far (3 weeks) she's respecting it. This includes calls, visited and emails for DS, hubby and me.

Hubby sees and agrees there are serious issues with her but also is an only child who in the past has been a bit of a mamas boy!

Linda on the move - hubby still wants to please her, big time. We have a counseling session schedule for our first time but What other things can I do to help him get past this?
Edited by MunchiesMom - 1/10/11 at 9:57pm

[MariaMadly]

Toxic Parents, by Susan Forward

Toxic In-Laws, same author

[Spring Lily]

Funny, I posted here about my narcissistic FIL not too long ago in this very forum. In our case, I got to a point where I was sick of him being so disrespectful to me and laid down a boundary with him (with the support of my DH). He reacted badly and told me that he disagreed with me, he does nothing wrong, it is all in my head. I was totally sick of their games and manipulations, so I said that unless he can respect that boundary, then I can't welcome him into my home. He threw the biggest hissy fit temper tantrum you can imagine and that was that, I haven't seen him since. That was like 8 months ago. There have been passive aggressive emails & phone calls from him & MIL to me and DH, all launching a huge attack on me for daring to tell him that he isn't perfect (in a nutshell). Every emotional trick has been pulled, from them crying to raging to attacking my character to saying they can't talk to me anymore because I "terrify" them. (Really, it should be the easiest, most basic boundary to follow, that this overreaction is just beyond belief.) It's been really rough at times, but I am holding firm, for the health of our whole family.

Some days I like to read the beginning of the serenity prayer (and I'm not even religious) because it helps me stay clear on how much energy to put into this: "God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference." Because that in a nutshell is what you need to do to deal with a narcissist. Put your energy & courage toward what you CAN do--like read the books above, draw healthy boundaries, hold to them--instead of putting it on things you can't, like the narcissist's behavior towards you and their sick family dynamics.

Also, remember, any time you confront a narcissist you are going to trigger that bottomless pit of narcissistic rage. Their egos are fragile/non-existent, despite their bravado, so they just do not have the ability to take the slightest criticism. Insight into their behavior and motives is rare--or very shallow. They usually are full of rage and/or depression, so it is easy to lash out at you if you try to upset the status quo or question them. Just beware that for your MIL to be functioning with her family, there are people near her--like children & spouse--who have lived for decades with this as "normal." It's pretty common for those people to want to protect the narcissist and the dysfunctional system, so you won't just be stirring up your MIL's rage but also they may attack you to defend her. (Like what happened to me!) That's really common in a family with a narcissist, so it's good to chose your specific battle carefully if you're going to go the confrontation way.

The other choice is to slowly distance yourself from them until you rarely see them. That was my previous tactic, but those rare visits started getting too traumatic for the kids and I had to take a stand. Hope that is the kind of info you're looking for, you can PM me if you want to talk.

[MunchiesMom]

Thanks for the reply!! Sounds like we're in the same boat. For me, it really got bad after DS was born. I was so brainwashed by her verbal attacks that i wondered if i had the issue ("over protective first time mom" and "crazy" as i was called).

But now i realize how real this personality disorder is. And I've learned her husband is the enabler and my husband was the golden child...under her spell.

I need to check out the books listed above. I worry about when their timeout is over and, if things go well, we allow them back into our lives. I wonder if we should recommunicate their wrong doings and reiterate the boundaries (or "rules")? Because this will be another huge blow out fight, since I'm the crazy one and the IL never do anything wrong. Or maybe I should slowly let them back into our lives and boot them the first time the overstep.

I hear that when dealing with a N you should detach emotionally, stop the info train keeping communication to a minimum and lower your expectations. Still mentally figuring out how to do this... and kind of grieving for the ILs I'll never have.

Most importantly I worry about the effect they could have on DS if I dothemprotect him from them.

[sublimeliving]

I think communication is key, in any relationship. I've never heard of an adult time out, but I don't give time outs to my child either. I think discussing the situation, and figuring out a plan so that it doesn't happen again is crucial. . Families disagree, fight, get angry...and they also make up and love each other again. My husband is also an only child, and I can't imagine asking him to stop communication w/ his mother (she has issue too). Your MIL may think you are overprotective, and you are a first time mother, but she should learn to control her verbal attacks. I would explain to her that she hurt you emotionally and that it can't happen again. Setting boundaries is better than cutting off communication. 

Edited by sublimeliving - 1/11/11 at 3:41am

[MariaMadly]

It took many years for me to realize that my in-laws would never, ever understand.  To realize they weren't interested in understanding, that what they called "an exchange of ideas" meant they would share their ideas with us and we'd use them.  Boundaries work best when the situation isn't unilateral.  For my (nuclear) family, boundaries worked when we stopped needing my in-laws to be responsible for respecting us and realized we have the power to make a situation civil . . . sometimes by the way we deflect intrusive remarks or behaviors, sometimes by not being available at all.

That means the boundaries work.  Unless everyone's trying, though, the relationship does not.  I'm really sorry for everyone in these situations, even the in-laws.

Edited by MariaMadly - 1/11/11 at 7:56am

[Linda on the move]

I think the real problem is in your marriage, not with your in laws. You can't really help your dh get past this unless and until he wants to, and even then, it's his trip, not yours. I think counseling is a great idea.

With your husband, focus on non-violent communication. Set your own boundaries, and let go of the idea that it is your job to keep other people happy.

I really like the book Toxic Parents, but I haven't read Toxic Inlaws.

[MunchiesMom]

"Time outs" or breaks are common responses toxic relationships. And I guess if my inlaws are acting like kids well treat them like kids (though we don't practice time outs with DS). In the reading thst I have done, I found this resource helpful... guess you could say we're going the "low contact" route.

http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/

DH and I do need to explore why we work so hard to "keep other people happy". I imagine his is the result of being a child of a N. He's. Kind of hesitant on seeing a counselor because I think he fears he'll get called out on pleasing his mother over his wife in the past.

[gbailey]

It's great you're seeing a counselor. In terms of helping him get past it...it really depends on your DH. For my DH it was coming to the realization that the people he loved and sacrificed so much for weren't willing to do the bare minimum for  him. It was/is very hurtful but it's helped him come to terms with living his life without apologies in spite of what his relatives do or so. Hopefully your husband will learn that you can't please everyone including mama.
 

The fact that your DH agreed to a time out and knows there are serious issues is great. Just imagine if he thought there was nothing wrong with his parent's behavior. I'm sure counseling will help. It was the first step in DHcoming to terms with his family and their behavior. The other was creating my own boundaries in terms of what I would and would not deal with regarding his family. Quote:

Originally Posted by MunchiesMom 

Sorry, I should have clarified. I'm emotionally so exhausted from her games and aggressive behavior that my hubby and I agreed to take some time away from her and FIL.

We told them we need some time with no communication or visit so "we can heal our hearts." Of course she doesn't like this but so far (3 weeks) she's respecting it. This includes calls, visited and emails for DS, hubby and me.

Hubby sees and agrees there are serious issues with her but also is an only child who in the past has been a bit of a mamas boy!

Linda on the move - hubby still wants to please her, big time. We have a counseling session schedule for our first time but What other things can I do to help him get past this?

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by MunchiesMom 

He's. Kind of hesitant on seeing a counselor because I think he fears he'll get called out on pleasing his mother over his wife in the past.

I think that a lot of men are hesitant to see a counselor because they fear they will be blamed. For a lot of people, it's really easier to live in denial that face the possibility that it's YOUR fault, YKWIM? Marriage counselors don't sit in judgment of whats going on in the marriage, but rather try to help people move forward. I'm sure it's a dynamic that difficult for your DH to grasp since it's so different from how he was raised.

In my marriage, I was the one who brought the crazy in-laws to our lives, and our marriage counselor gave me my copy of Toxic Parents!!  The good news is that there is a lot of opportunity for growth for both of you guys, separately and as a couple. This could end up being the beginning of a very cool new chapter in your relationship, just depending on how you guys chose to deal with it.

Peace be the journey!

[Spring Lily]

Yes, you are not in this alone! Narcissistic people are so difficult to put boundaries on, because they just refuse to believe they are doing any wrong. WE are the crazy ones that have all the problems, and the people supporting/enabling them will go along with that to maintain the status quo.

I feel for you, because it sounds like your DH just isn't there yet with this. It took my DH years and years to accept that yes, his dad has NPD, and no, nothing you can do will help him. We did have one major achievement, we talked FIL into going to individual therapy. My expectations are about zero, though, because I just don't know if he's capable of much change at this point, without his wife doing anything different. So like you say with your MIL, her husband is enabling her and that means she doesn't have to change. And won't.

It's great that your DH realizes there are serious problems. I think for mine, his parents do a lot of emotional manipulation and guilt in order to keep him in place as an enabler. Part of helping him see that was gently pointing it out when his parents were guilt-tripping him. It took a long time before mentioning them did not immediately make him defensive, because he was so used to defending and enabling. That's how he grew up, if you think about it. I also started pointing out more and more the things FIL said to me and the kids, and carefully getting DH to realize that those things were disrepectful or rude (or just mean). I started asking him, "If anyone else said that to me, what would you do? How would you feel to hear your wife treated that way?" He started getting the picture. Then I gave him some books--maybe the counselor can recommend some cognitive behavioral ones for your DH. David Burns has some awesome books that really help you understand twisted thoughts. I think a lot of the manipulations and guilt trips use twisted thinking, and when it was spelled out in a book, DH really started getting a clearer picture. He began recognizing when his parents were generalizing or catastrophizing or turning things into all-or-nothing situations. We also talked a lot about healthy buondaries, and what that means in relation to his parents. The big thing there was, not only are they crossing our boundaries, but if we don't stop this, it means we are ALLOWING that behavior.

Then I started telling him my concerns about the effect on the kids. Seeing their mom treated this way as normal, seeing daddy stand by as mommy is being put down, having these people as role models, having their feelings hurt when the ILs talk to them, learning it's ok to violate people's boundaries, learning dysfunction is normal. That was really the last straw for both of us. Maybe some of those things will be stuff you can talk to your DH about.

Please post an update when you speak to the counselor, I'd love to hear his/her input!

[MunchiesMom]

Such kind, supportive words! Thanks all for listening and sharing. More from me soon...