I want to give up!!!!

[Petie1104]

One step forward, two steps back.  This is honestly how I feel.  So here goes, any suggestions or just support are appreciated...

Background. 

DD was diagnosed with Asperger's.  She used to be extremely violent, to the point that the climax was when she attacked my mother with a knife.  This was when she was about 6, maybe 5 1/2.  Since then we have gotten her off of medication, we have made huge strides in progress.  Now I'm wondering if they have the wrong dx.  I wonder because last time I checked, compulsive lying is not in the DSMV for Asperger's.  So, let's move to now....

In the past couple of weeks, let's see if I can sum this up

She has lied about things her teacher said, I explained that this was a lie and that when her teacher needs something, she will send a note home.

She has poured lotion out all over my bathroom and bedroom and blamed it on her baby brother, I knew this was a lie and again explained what a lie is and that it is wrong

She climbed up to a ledge 6 ft. off the floor (using chairs and counters) and unplugged a lamp.  She lied and said her 4 yr. old brother did it.  I once again told her what a lie is and told her it is unacceptable.

She lied and said that she went to Tuscon with her class, this time I just told her to stop lying.

She said her friend stole her bike, when I found out the truth, again I told her to stop lying.

She took a bar of soap and wrote all over her oldest brother's tv then blamed it on her baby brother.  Again, I told her I was getting tired of her lying and how in the world could I trust anything she said if she kept lying to me.

She said that her friends at school wanted to steal her lunchbox.  Again, I told her to stop lying (once again I knew this was a lie).

This morning the thermostat was turned down, we asked all the kids about it, after being caught in the lie I was done.

These are just a few of the lies she has told.  Every day, from the minute she wakes until she goes to sleep she is lying.  Constantly. 

Tonight, I lost it.  She lied about the thermostat and I lost it. I told her that I didn't want to talk to her, didn't want to look at her, that I was sick of her lies and that until she stops lying to me she isn't to speak to me.  I am sick and freaking tired of every other word out of her mouth being a lie.  She blames things on the dog, the cat, her brother's, her father, me, everything and anyone except admitting that she is lying.  She won't tell me why she wants to get other people in trouble, and it's not like she got punished for lying, until tonight, so it's not out of fear of punishment that she lies.  Especially when she lies about stupid little things like something a friend said to her.  I'm done and I have no clue how to stop her from doing this.  I can't even look at her because I WANT to physically hurt her.  I won't, but I want to so badly. 

Help me out here. 

[Petie1104]

Oh, by the way, she is 7 1/2. 

[Petie1104]

OK, so I've calmed down a bit and dh and I talked and we are finding dd a new therapist tomorrow.  We had one in AL then moved and she was doing so well that it just got put off, then the holidays came etc.  So, tomorrow, I'm calling her school and asking them if they can suggest a therapist in this area.  We may actually have to medicate her again, though I would like to avoid it.  I'm just worried that she is heading towards becoming violent again.  That this lying is giving her the same release that her violent outbursts gave her before.  I hate getting angry, and when I do I have to vent somewhere so I hope noone thinks I'm horrible for venting here.

[scrgrl75]

I have no advice for you but I wanted you to know that my heart goes out to you and your family. I can't even begin to imagine how stressed out you all must be. I hope you find something that works for your daughter as I'm sure it's no fun for her either. Good luck and many hugs...

[Petie1104]

Now I'm ready to cry.  So, I call up tricare mental health to find dd a psychiatrist and therapist.  Well, there are no psychiatrists here that routinely work with tricare AND children.  So they are going to have to call them all up and see if anyone is willing to take on the case.  BUT, luckily, they were able to refer me to 4 therapists that they had listed.  So I start calling...

#1 won't work with children because she has gotten dragged into court and apparently the state board doesn't like that too much

#2 is not accepting new clients

#3 was a wrong number

#4 I'm waiting for a callback on

So now, my whole plan on putting my family back together rests on #4 being willing to take on a new CHILD who is under TRICARE.  And it doesn't look like the odds are with me on this one.  I seriously had to try to compose myself after my last phone call.  WHY DID WE MOVE HERE!!!!!  I have never in my life felt homesick.  I was raised an Army brat and moving is just part of life.  I have no "home" though I lived in TN longer than anywhere else, and graduated from there.  But guess what.  I AM HOMESICK!!  I don't want to live here, I want to live somewhere that I'm not fighting against a higher cost of living, a daughter I can't get help for, and a climate that is making us all miserable.  (Sorry, if you're from AZ it's just TOO DRY!!LOL  I have bought 3 things of chapstick just so we all have it, and we're going through it like water.  Lotion is a must and I itch all the time.  Now if dd is feeling half of that, it's no wonder she's acting out.  OK, so I just made myself laugh.  We spend most our time in humid environments complaining about the humidity, now I'm in a dry environment WISHING we had humidity.  But I am homesick.  DD had a wonderful psych and a wonderful therapist and now I'll be lucky to find her anyone to talk to.  DH is calling her PCM today to see if they would be willing to put her back on Risperidone until we can find her someone.  We need something. 

This morning she was at it again, not lying this time, but screaming and attacking her brothers.  DS 1 now has scratch marks all the way down his back.  So we need help ASAP.  HOPEFULLY, though I hate the idea of working so hard to get her off the meds, HOPEFULLY her PCM will be willing to temporarily put her on them again, at least until we can get her in to a psych and therapist.

[Belia]

I have no magic answers for you, OP, but I just want you to know that I'm listening and feel so bad for you.  How stressful.  Boy, our kids sure do know how to press our buttons, don't they?!?!?  Although it sounds like your DD is not just pressing your button, but yanking it out of your chest and stomping up and down on it.

Hang in there.  I'm hoping you get good news from therapist #4.

P.S.  Have you considered posting in FYT for suggestions?

[Petie1104]

Originally Posted by Belia 

I have no magic answers for you, OP, but I just want you to know that I'm listening and feel so bad for you.  How stressful.  Boy, our kids sure do know how to press our buttons, don't they?!?!?  Although it sounds like your DD is not just pressing your button, but yanking it out of your chest and stomping up and down on it.

Hang in there.  I'm hoping you get good news from therapist #4.

P.S.  Have you considered posting in FYT for suggestions?

 What's FYT?

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by Petie1104 

Originally Posted by Belia 

I have no magic answers for you, OP, but I just want you to know that I'm listening and feel so bad for you.  How stressful.  Boy, our kids sure do know how to press our buttons, don't they?!?!?  Although it sounds like your DD is not just pressing your button, but yanking it out of your chest and stomping up and down on it.

Hang in there.  I'm hoping you get good news from therapist #4.

P.S.  Have you considered posting in FYT for suggestions?

 What's FYT?

FYT = Finding Your Tribe. There are regional areas, and so someone who lives in AZ near where you are might be able to help.

Another thought: Your daughter is delayed in social/emotional development (that's one of the diagnostic criteria for autism). In children who are typically developing, we often see their first lies at about age 3-4. And while it sounds counterintuitive, this is actually a developmental milestone. It shows that the child is developing an understanding that their thought processes are different from those around them. Remember that a lot of 2-3 year olds play hide 'n seek by simply covering their eyes. The thought process appears to be: "If I can't see them, they can't see me." Logical, but wrong. By 4, they've understood that just because they can't see, doesn't mean that you can't see them. 

So, I would suggest that you might want to reframe this a bit for yourself. Your dd's lying indicates that she's making strides forward in theory of mind, i.e. understanding that other people might not be thinking what she's thinking. The fact that she's so bad at lying also suggests that she's trying on this behavior and playing with this knowledge -- it doesn't raise concerns in me like a typical 8 year old lying would. I don't have any sources handy on the developing of lying, but quick google search turned up this, which is pretty good: http://www2.scholastic.com/browse/article.jsp?id=702

Because of that, I would suggest that you treat this the same as you would a 3 year old's lying. First, don't give her a chance to lie when you can possibly help it. "I see the thermostat was turned way down. When that happens, it gets cold in her. Please leave it where it should be." "There's lotion on the floor, please help me clean it up." The #1 rule is: Don't ask who did it. Tell her instead very concretely what you want to happen. If she denies it, you can say "I didn't ask who did it, I asked you to help me clean it up." One of the major rules in our house is: We ALL help clean up, regardless of who made the mess. It avoids a lot of "it's not my mess/I didn't do it" kinds of discussions. At another time, you can remind her not to dump lotion. If it's something you can't verify, you can simply say "I don't think that's true. It sounds like we have different ideas on that." You might also draw her out on "What makes you think that your friends want to steal your lunchbox?" It might help you understand her social thinking. Another technique is to say something like "It sounds like you WISH that your class went to Tucson, don't you." I'd try REALLY hard to eliminate the word "lie" from your discussions with her for now. It sounds to me like she's trying to work out what information you have, what information you don't, and how people find out what other people know. She's not very sophisticated about it, and I could be completely wrong.

Now, of course, this doesn't address the other problems -- why is she dumping lotion, writing with soap on her brother's TV, climbing up high to unplug lamps? Why is she telling stories about what she did in class? Her friends? It does sound like things are more out of control with her, and I hope that you can find that psych and a counselor that will see you.

[Petie1104]

Originally Posted by LynnS6 

Originally Posted by Petie1104 

Originally Posted by Belia 

I have no magic answers for you, OP, but I just want you to know that I'm listening and feel so bad for you.  How stressful.  Boy, our kids sure do know how to press our buttons, don't they?!?!?  Although it sounds like your DD is not just pressing your button, but yanking it out of your chest and stomping up and down on it.

Hang in there.  I'm hoping you get good news from therapist #4.

P.S.  Have you considered posting in FYT for suggestions?

 What's FYT?

FYT = Finding Your Tribe. There are regional areas, and so someone who lives in AZ near where you are might be able to help.

Another thought: Your daughter is delayed in social/emotional development (that's one of the diagnostic criteria for autism). In children who are typically developing, we often see their first lies at about age 3-4. And while it sounds counterintuitive, this is actually a developmental milestone. It shows that the child is developing an understanding that their thought processes are different from those around them. Remember that a lot of 2-3 year olds play hide 'n seek by simply covering their eyes. The thought process appears to be: "If I can't see them, they can't see me." Logical, but wrong. By 4, they've understood that just because they can't see, doesn't mean that you can't see them. 

So, I would suggest that you might want to reframe this a bit for yourself. Your dd's lying indicates that she's making strides forward in theory of mind, i.e. understanding that other people might not be thinking what she's thinking. The fact that she's so bad at lying also suggests that she's trying on this behavior and playing with this knowledge -- it doesn't raise concerns in me like a typical 8 year old lying would. I don't have any sources handy on the developing of lying, but quick google search turned up this, which is pretty good: http://www2.scholastic.com/browse/article.jsp?id=702

Because of that, I would suggest that you treat this the same as you would a 3 year old's lying. First, don't give her a chance to lie when you can possibly help it. "I see the thermostat was turned way down. When that happens, it gets cold in her. Please leave it where it should be." "There's lotion on the floor, please help me clean it up." The #1 rule is: Don't ask who did it. Tell her instead very concretely what you want to happen. If she denies it, you can say "I didn't ask who did it, I asked you to help me clean it up." One of the major rules in our house is: We ALL help clean up, regardless of who made the mess. It avoids a lot of "it's not my mess/I didn't do it" kinds of discussions. At another time, you can remind her not to dump lotion. If it's something you can't verify, you can simply say "I don't think that's true. It sounds like we have different ideas on that." You might also draw her out on "What makes you think that your friends want to steal your lunchbox?" It might help you understand her social thinking. Another technique is to say something like "It sounds like you WISH that your class went to Tucson, don't you." I'd try REALLY hard to eliminate the word "lie" from your discussions with her for now. It sounds to me like she's trying to work out what information you have, what information you don't, and how people find out what other people know. She's not very sophisticated about it, and I could be completely wrong.

Now, of course, this doesn't address the other problems -- why is she dumping lotion, writing with soap on her brother's TV, climbing up high to unplug lamps? Why is she telling stories about what she did in class? Her friends? It does sound like things are more out of control with her, and I hope that you can find that psych and a counselor that will see you.

You know, I like the way you think.  Some things don't add up, but it may just be her delays.  Things like, she lies, but she is quick to say when someone lied to her.  I haven't figured it all out yet.  I asked why she dumped the lotion, she shrugged and smiled.  I asked why she wrote with soap on the TV she said she thought that's what it was for.  We asked why she climbed up high to unplug the lamp, again, we got the shrug and smile.  What scares me is it's the same smile she had on her face a couple years ago when I caught her strangling her brother (no exaggeration, his lips were blue when I caught her).  I'm worried that the tension and stress she feels is starting to manifest again, and I cannot allow that to happen.  Last time, she almost got committed to a juvenile treatment facility.  She was 6 and it got that bad.  I think that might be why I'm so uptight about this behavior, I'm worried that we are heading back to that point again. 

I will try addressing the lying as you suggest and just not address the lying as much as just stating to her what needs to be done.  I still haven't gotten a call back today from the therapists, I'm hoping I get a call tomorrow.  DH called the clinic and her PCM can't get her in until the end of next week, but she is willing to put dd back on Risperidone if we still feel it's necessary when we see her.  Tonight, I don't know what's different, but she has been as sweet as can be. 

[elizaMM]

Major hugs, OP. Moving and getting settled is hard for anyone, but add in a whole family and a child with special needs and that's got to be SO taxing.

I just have one thought, similar to what Lynn said:

I read in Your Baby & Child by Penelope Leach that before kids really understand what lieing is, they say things that they WISH were true, even though they aren't. This was probably in a section about toddlers but if her development is delayed, it might fit. Just hoping that might help you understand where she is coming from a bit.

My heart goes out to you-- mothering a special needs child has to be SO SO hard.

[Petie1104]

GOOD NEWS!!!  Today has been wonderful.  I got a call back from our insurance company and they told me there is ONE psychiatrist in the area that treats children AND takes Tricare.  BUT, he was only seeing new patients on a case by case basis.  She gave me the number and I had to call and answer a bunch of questions on her prior history, previous treatments, and current issues.  The nurse said that she would probably be calling us by Tues. to let us know if the Dr. had decided to take on dd's case.  Well, a couple hours later I GOT A CALL!!!  She said she talked to the Dr. and he was excited about taking on dd's case and that he had the "perfect" therapist in mind who is an expert at "play therapy" and will be happy to work with her!!!  YAY!!!!!!  I am so excited.  So tomorrow I have to go fill out some paperwork and then we will set up her first appt. with the new Dr.  I'm glad he's excited to take on dd's case.  I wonder why?  That's just me though, I always want to know the "why" behind people's behaviors and choices.  Too many years in therapy with dd I guess. But, I am so relieved.  I hope this means she will be getting better and hopefully the therapist can figure out how to explain the lying, or find out what's behind it.  I honestly hope it's something as simple as she has just matured to the level that she is starting that behavior.  I hope it isn't a sign of a more serious issue. 

Oh, and today, no lies.  This usually happens though, she escalates, has a complete meltdown, or things come to a massive climax of emotion, then we get a few days of peace before tension starts building again.  Hopefully we can make this break last a bit longer.

[LynnS6]

Great news! Don't overthink why he wants to take you!

The scientist in me always assumes the simplest explanation (e.g, developmental stage) first -- it does cut down on the worrying a bit. Let's hope that this is the case.

[honeybunmom]

Yeahhhh!!!!  Good luck!