Mothering › Forums › Parenting › Life as a Parent › Single Parenting › Should I let my daughter go to Turkey at age 3?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Should I let my daughter go to Turkey at age 3? - Page 4

post #61 of 71

My dd traveled with me to see family for several days when she was 6 and she didn't see that as being all that special.  She barely remembers that trip despite being doted on and seeing a ton of really fun things that we don't have here.  I don't think an extended vacation at three, or even 5, is worth the worry or the separation from home and the family the child is used to seeing on a daily basis.  I don't know if your ex is used to dealing with the ups and downs of  parenting, but I would worry about how a parent who is used to coming and staying for a little while then leaving would do when they can't just pass their child off to their primary caregiver when they want a break, when their child is whining incessantly because they are done traveling but traveling is not done with them, or when their child has any type of reaction to the stress of travel and separation from their home that they aren't used to having to handle.  If your child is one who doesn't actually like to travel then you add the separation and drastic changes that come with being in another country on top of that I don't think things are going to turn out well for anyone involved.  My dd hates even going on an overnight vacation to a city a couple hours away, I can't imagine sending her off with someone who is just casually in her life for a month (or even for a week) and expecting it not to be a disaster even at her age.  Your ex may also seem one way now that he is far away from his family, but when he is there for a long time he may be a totally different person who will do things you would never dream he would be capable of doing.

post #62 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post

I guess I just can't fathom a parent WILLINGLY taking the risk of LOSING their CHILD??!!  I just don't get it - its far more important that my son have BOTH parents in his life, than to go to a distant country to visit extended family. 


it is fascinating to me how our philosophies are defined by our experiences. 

 

for instances dd's family to me is just not me and her dad. yes we are there all the time but her gparents, cousins, aunts and uncles - both living close by as well as far away are definitely really important to her. 

 

so to me where i see the risk of kidnapping nonexistant, its unfathomable that my child could not have that relationship with the people far away because of legalities. 

 

in your case i totally understand. a lying ex. no way. i would not trust him easily. but in my case (dont know that much about OPs case) where i trust ex i could have easily used my right to refuse to take dd to visit - but ultimately it would have been my dd who was the loser. 

 

i dont know if its all children but my dd has v. strong memories from 3. she remembers certain details. she talks and chats with family. 

 

her most important 'gparent' (neighbour) moved away at 2 when she had to go to a home for alzheimer patients. we attended her funeral when dd was 5. she was equally important to my dd's life and even today dd remembers her v. clearly and all the things that that gma did for dd.  dd lost her gpa and step gma at 5 1/2. even today she misses them and occasionally cries for them. that is her emotional response. however i can still see the impact they have left on her life. and her other two gmas who continues to do so. 

 

so i guess what i am saying is while parents are definitely important in dd's life, the others are also extremely important. important enough that we both parents be allowed to travel internationally to visit family members no matter what the legalities are. 

post #63 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post

I guess I just can't fathom a parent WILLINGLY taking the risk of LOSING their CHILD??!!  I just don't get it - its far more important that my son have BOTH parents in his life, than to go to a distant country to visit extended family. 


Being an immigrant does not imply a willingness to be a kidnapper.  Sometimes, most times, the risk perceived is not a realistic one.  As before, that is exactly where internet advice fails -- it's not something that can be generalized about.  A person who does not have reason to trust the other parent of their child and a person who does are in completely different situations.  

post #64 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquesce View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post

I guess I just can't fathom a parent WILLINGLY taking the risk of LOSING their CHILD??!!  I just don't get it - its far more important that my son have BOTH parents in his life, than to go to a distant country to visit extended family. 


Being an immigrant does not imply a willingness to be a kidnapper.  Sometimes, most times, the risk perceived is not a realistic one.  As before, that is exactly where internet advice fails -- it's not something that can be generalized about.  A person who does not have reason to trust the other parent of their child and a person who does are in completely different situations.  


I agree that being an immigrant does not imply willingness to be a kidnapper.  However, I do know immigrants who wish to return to their home country - and if someone was still a citizen of their home country I'm not sure I would trust that they would return my child.  There is also an issue of being able to travel outside the US and then return to the US - not all immigrants have that right I don't think, I would want to make absolutely certain, by speaking with a lawyer with my ex present, that based on his status he would be able to re-enter the country.  If not, then the child wouldn't be able to go.  There are also levels of trust - I trust my ds's dad to take him to his home, to his family's home (50+ miles away), but I would not trust him out of country.  I would also be very suspect if there were the possibility of a child becoming a citizen of another country without my permission - which it seems would be a possibility with Turkey - that would NOT be ok with me. 

 

I also agree that people have to do whats right for them, and that internet advice is not always the best.  The OP did say in her original post that she did not feel comfortable, and that her gut was telling her to say no - that implies to me a reason not to trust that the father would bring the child back.  I have said before, if other people are willing to take that risk, thats on them.  I would never be willing to take that risk.  Ever.  I'm not even sure I would if I could trust my ex.  Not a risk I want to take.  If other people don't think its a risk, then thats fine - they can do as they please.

post #65 of 71
Thread Starter 

You know, life is full of gambles.  Every time I get into my car with my kids, I am risking death or injury due to some sort of mishap. I constantly pray for my kids to be safe and healthy and I take what I consider to be reasonable precautions.  Some people may take what I think are unreasonable precautions, and some people may think I take unnecessary risks.

 

I am not comfortable sending my child overseas for a month without me. I feel that the risk of my child not returning to me is very small. I think in another year or two, benefits of having a relationship with extended family and familiarity with a different culture will be pretty wonderful and I would like my daughter to experience them. We'll see how I feel later.

 

I am not sure if expecting the worst from people sends the message I want to convey to my children.  I want my children to look for and expect good from people and from life. I want my children to feel safe with family and know that I trust people who have given me no reason to fear them.

 

I want my children to have common sense and be safe.  I don't want to set them up to be victims, but I also don't want them to be cynical.

 

I have no reason to think my child would be abducted or harmed by her father in any way.  But as long as I have reservations of any kind, I won't be sending her to the other side of the world without me. And I feel that her father won't insist on taking her unless I feel comfortable.

 

I expect that my child will be a good traveler.  Some children aren't.  Some parents aren't for that matter.

 

The grandparents live in Tarsus, which I think I was told is about a half-hour from the beach (Mediterranean Sea). I'm in Middle Tennessee and I have been on an 8 or 9 hour car trip to Orange Beach/Gulf Shores, which my older kids, who were probably 3 and 4 at the time weathered well.

 

 

 

 

 

post #66 of 71

Hell no. No way, no how.  My kid is not travelling overseas without her custodial parent until she's a legal adult, and possibly not even then.  I'm sorry, but your ex is out of his freakin' mind if he thinks that he's going to la-di-da take a non-custodial 3-yr-old on a 2-day-trip to stay for a month without mom right there.

post #67 of 71
With the information given about the situation, I think that, if  I would be in
your shoes, I would probably decide to not let my ex-partner take my 3yo dd
to his country of origin for a 1 month holiday. At least, not yet, at a somewhat
later age I would be more open to it (!).
There are many fors and againsts I could come up with, many reasons I could
give to have her go there with her father, or not (yet), many things to consider
if you decide she could go. I can tell you that I do know Turkey, the country and
its people, through my personal experience.
However, the main reasons why I personally would (imagining myseşf in your
shoes, at this moment) decide against such a long trip (now/near future) are
not at all country or culture or law or travel related.

The pure fact that I would still be breastfeeding my child (and  assuming a 3yo
still bf quite regularly/really needing this on a daily basis - me also extbf
experienced) would be reason enough for not having her go.
Also, age and or personality wise, I would look at my DD and how she is
generally coping with daily life and her exploration 'the world' (I mean her
immediate living environment and the people surrounding her and the way
she is around random people and different environments). And, in this
perspective how you think she would be doing on this trip and how you think
the people acompanying/surrounding her there (not being primary caretaker
as you are) would know how to best address her needs and possible fears
and frustrations. (As a note: my youngest DS at that age definitely had
seperation anxiety from one parent particularly (was pretty clingy and had
trouble with everyday goodbyes), was not very verbal yet and often frustrated/
angry/physical partly because of difficulty expressing his wants/needs/feelings,
partly because of personality and because of difficulty coping with changes/
sounds/environments/people/situations, and he had frequent enormous
outbursts that were very hard on himself and very hard to deal with as a parent,
etc.(...and such still ongoing to a certain extent now he's almost 5 - so I would
personally consider these factors for sure).
Another thing that would bug me: how about the possibility for dd to run of
and get lost? If your child is one of those that may run of (in the street,
in crowded areas,...) any minute or do anything reckless/dangerous (like
climbing on furniture/opening windows/balconies, etc.) and even succeeds to do
so in a flash of a second, how vigilant and experienced you even may be, are
you SURE that your ex-partner, and the relatives she will stay at are as vigilant/
knowing/careful (without being over-protective, just very alert) as you think a
parent/care-taker needs to be around your dd?
Since we're speaking about a month 24/24 childcare in a different situation.
Also, possibly the father may leave her once in a while in the care of his relatives 
as he goes out to do errands or meet people? Even if he's the most attached and
caring father, most likely he won't take her along morning till evening every single
day when he's planning to go somewhere, and I would consider that such a situation
would at least once take place. So certainly something to discuss with the father if
the trip will become real. If for instance his parents would watch your child when he's
not home, would they be capable of childcare responsibility, are they young and
capable enough for that, are they willing to do so, and are they alert? Not trying to
offend anyone, I think you just need to get to know more details about such things
if you think about letting your daughter go on this trip, just being practical.

But so THESE are the main factors on which I would personally base such a 
decision: the extbf, the personality/age of my child, the 'reckless child'-level
in combination with adult alert factor.

I very well understand the need for the father (and actually, dd) to visit his
other homeland and family, for him after so many years and for reason of
seeing his country, former home-town, friends, for missing the culture, the
language, the foods, the environment, for wanting to have his daughter get
to know all of this, their relatives, their culture, for family and friends to
get to see/know his daughter etc.
I do not think, age-wise, it is ever 'too early' to expose one to another
culture, and defnitely not to a culture that is also one's own through a
parent. I believe that the sooner a child gets emerged in this 'other'
culture that is also his/hers, the better, the more familiar it will be in the
years to come: familiar faces, foods, language, people, names, habits,
impressions, etc.

Depending on language exposure thus far, she might or might not experience
difficulties with switching language environment. If your husband has
consistently or at least regularly been speaking his language with her, I
would expect not much difficulty on that part, bilingual (multilingual)
children really have the ability to switch from one to the other, and even
if, at this early age, switching doesn't happen automatically or easy yet and it
is very normal too for mixing to occur, the only way a language can be learnedby
a child is by getting emerged in the language. Same for culture. And, even if she
wasn't exposed to the other language much thus far, still it is very enriching and
important for her to get in touch with it at an early age. If her father deems it
important to expose his daughter to his mothertongue and culture (and actually,
HER 'fathertongue' and culture), and definitely if he wishes to get her acquainted
with his family/culture/country, I would suggest he dues everything possible to
work on that in the country you both reside in (by consisently offering language
and culture experience to her through his parenting) And to especially work on
that if he is planning such a trip with his daughter in the (neatr) future.
 
I have no idea about culture shock in children this age but I am sure just a new
environment  alone could affect a child deeply (I mean both positively or negatively),
even if it's just normal routines falling away all of a sudden and being replaced a whole
new experience. In this regard, I do not think that one month is too long, to the contrary.
I believe that for such a trip (which is not just a 'holiday'!) it is almost mandatory ;-).
And, in Turkish culture, it is very common to visit family abroad for at least a month,
or  if possible 2 or 3 and to spend enough time with close relatives. Also, especially for
(young children,  adjusting to new rhythms, habits, people, environment may already
take a week or so. And with a small child one is not as flexible to do many visits/errands/
trips in a relatively short period of time. I would say at least 3 weeks would be needed for
a good enough experience, especially with a language/cultural'bath' in mind!
On the other hand, may a child not be coping well during such a trip, which is a possibility,
a month may be/seem really long... but, you just cannot foresee anything and a lot of it is
not getting planned but just going with the flow. n this perspective I also stress the factor
personality of the child, and anyhow, a person may always surprise you, children surprise
you all the time...


Also, what is you personal experience with the Ă´ther' culture, what do you
know, what did you live of it, what are your likes and dislikes of what you
know/ecperienced, did you ever visit this countrry, did you meet with your
ex's relatives, how do you think they might relate wih your dd, have they
already met your dd, have you seen them interact at all at one or more
occasions, etc. If your knowledge of this is pretty low, could you make work of it
to learn a bit more about this culture/country/these relatives so that you can better be
able to understand some of the experiences your daughter may have in life
through her father's culture?

I would also think it a good experience, if at all possible of course, to
once visit your ex-in laws together with your daughter for this purpose, or
at or at least try to go on holiday with your child(ren) in this country and
posibly combine this with a meeting with the relatives. However, this may be
pretty awkward having no personal relation/bond with this family anymore
unless through your daughter. But I do think this could be helpful for you,
and all three of your children since this culture is part of your youngest
daughter's life through her father.
 
Another thing, a teenager or young adult exploring a country that is also part
of his/her origin through a parent will have a very different experience I believe
from a  child that had the possibility to (at least partly) absorb the other culture
from an early age on. It is not so obvious for a youngster to experience it as a
culture of its own but as something 'foreign' and may very well experience it
more as an outsider than an insider. I think it is good for the child to get to know
it as insider. Also, a (mother/father)language bath is very good especially before
the age of 6.

Pratically, where would your partner stay? Village, small town, large town,
countryside, house with patio/garden, small appartment, large
appartmentcomplex, recreation area in neighboorhood, busy road, suburban
area, near sea etc. There's a lot of variation in Turkey regarding housing
situations and conditions. The one may be more suitable for staying at with
a 3yo exploring child than the other. Certain 'safety precautions' or standards
people with young children take in some households, like no chemicals/knives/
fire within child's reach, careful around open windows and balcony doors, use
of carseats, electrical appliances, gas stoves and the like, may be very different
from what you would like your child to be around (especially if people around dd
are not used to a child at their home), or the level of vigilancy of caretakers
about these things may be very different from what you are comfortable with.
What about smoking in the home, sleeping in rooms where people have been
smoking? Often a living room is used as bedroom at night, so how are sleeping
arrangements? In Turkish culture it is very common for (young)children to sleep
next to their parents/in the same room/bed (which I think is a nice thing to do,
child feeling safe in new environment in this situation too!),  definitely when
staying somwewhere as a guest. All depending on what you  deem approprite/best
regarding your daughter's environment, these are things you should know about,
and try to  discuss in advance with her father if you think it might be of concern, if
you have questions about it, if you are seriously considering about letting her go
there this year. I mean, don't be a controll-freak about it, lol, you can't controll all
these issues in someone else's hoısehold, obviously. However, she is your daughter
possibly going a way for a month to another cuklture/country with people you may
not know well or not at all, and your concerns as a mother and primary caretaker
are valid. So you must just be aware that one home is more child-friendly than another,
especially if the situation will take place where your daughter would be there without
you around to 'check this out' or watch her (as parents automatically do when visiting
other people's houses I think ;-), since you are the primary caretaker you probably
know best what works and will not work for her. (eg I would put knives and scissors
away for my ds would find those and cut furniture, blankets, hair, and who knows
what else if he could, ...)

Generally, I think it can be a wonderful experience for your DD, together
with her father, and his family, which does not mean it will all go fluently
and without difficulty.
 
I also think that at age 3 she is definitely old enough to have certain memories
from this trip, that she may absorb things by being emerged in them for a stretch
of time, maybe these won't be real clear memories as in remembering, but the
experience may make these things familiar to her in a certain way. Even smells
become young childhood memories, smells of people, food, environment!

I also understand the ordeal for his elderly mother to come visit by plane,
that really must not be easy for an elderly lady who may not speak or
understand another language than her own, possibly having not much
experience with other culture than her own, may be possibly unable to
read/write or use communication tools as mobile phone or internet, as many
people of the older generation is Turkey may have difficulty with, such a
long trip to another country is really not so obvious/evident, especially
on her own.

Also, is regular communication (through phone, picture, skype) between mother and
daughter possible/easy while being in Turkey for so long?
 
And, not in the least unimportant, I would definitely  consider my daughters views
on such a trip. Yes, also when she is 3yo. After all, it's all about her and her life
experience, and the decision to go on such a trip is as much hers as her parents'.
 
So really really really I found it very interesting/powerful of you to post your question
and doubt, and I find it admirable for you wanting to consider this trip and be open to
it. I've seen many parents who would not have the other parent do what you at least
consider, or where one parent did not have the ability to show his/her culture/country/
family to his/her child.  So I really addressed this issue from a family and culture
perspective in my post, however, not so much from a 'separatedparent' perspective,
but from a  'multi-cultural parent' perspective.
post #68 of 71
Thread Starter 

Wow, what a long post! Thanks for the time and thought you put into helping me sort stuff out!

 

I HOPE to have her weaned by the time she is 3!  I am thinking about trying to get her to give it up in April or May, which will put her around 2 1/2.  But we will see. Just yesterday morning she said, "I NEED MILK!" not "I want some milk"--I don't want to shortchange her. I'll be reading up more on "child-led weaning" in the next few months.

 

She is very well-adjusted, adaptable, resilient. I think she'd be a good traveler.  She is curious and makes friends easily and I think she would revel in a change of environment/scenery etc. I just think I need to accompany her if she's under 5 or 6 or so (playing it by ear and not making any promises as to when she can go without me).

 

I think she isn't likely to run/wander off but her father has only one arm, and can't hold her hand constantly, so I'd want her attached to him somehow--we have a stuffed animal backpack/leash with about a 6 foot reach, if he could clip it to his belt with a carabiner or something,

 

I met the Babaanne when she was here for a month. She is sprightly and I think she'd keep a good eye on the child.  She likes me, or so I am told.  I found her to be delightful and we spent many hours preparing food together. Can't speak each other's language, but we managed to still communicate enough to "get by".DD, by the way, loves Turkish food and I try to prepare lots of Turkish style food often and we have homemade yogurt daily.

 

We are slowly trying to get some Turkish language into her (and my) brain.  I signed up on livemocha.com for Turkish lessons, which I go over with her. Her dad forgets to talk  Turkish to her, but I try to remind him when I'm with him.

 

As I said, I have met the Babaanne. I kind of think it would be good for me to go visit the rest of the family. I think it would be good for all of us. I don't imagine it would be suggested, but I'd jump at the opportunity.  I think it would be good for all of us. I would be comfortable, I think, but I don't know how the family/friends would feel.  I was told that nobody in the family/friend circle had ever had a child out of wedlock. I got such an enthusiastic embrace from Babaanne, I kind of think this wouldn't be an issue. I would think that as the most religious in the family, Babaanne would be the most conservative and judgemental of me.

 

I think he would expect to stay with his parents in Tarsus. I am not sure how big their house is.  I thought it would have been nice for his sister and her husband and their 2 kids to go with him and DD, but he said it would be too crowded.

 

I think the grandfather might be a smoker, but I don't know how much.  I'll ask.

 

I think as far as memories go, talking about them, looking at pictures and videos will keep them fresh and the next visit will be even better and things would still seem familiar.  I would love for her to be able to go every year or 2. Really, I would.  And I'd love for my older kids to go someday, if possible and if they'd like to.

 

I am skeptical about having frequent contact through phone, skype, pictures, if I sent her without me. I guess if she insisted, her dad would see that it got done, but there is a time difference and all..Of course, if I sent her without me, I wouldn't mind being woke up in the middle of the night to talk to her!

 

post #69 of 71

Sounds good, what you wrote, also about the babaanne, and I have the impression you are already preparing your daughter and yourself for a posiible (probable) future visit, and maybe you'll be accompanying her on a trip to Turkey, who knows? All the luck with you decision and thumbs up for the way you deal with this particular multicultural situation, I really find it admirable and I think you deserve a lot of respect for this (and I have the impression babaanne expressed similar feelings to you as well, in her own way).

 

The only thing (small), I am sceptible about the use of a leash there. If your husband has not used it so far I doubt him going to use it somewhere where you won't easily see a child on a leashorngtongue.gif.

post #70 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by leighi123 View Post
Why does it take 2 days to get there?  I've been on flights that are 16+ hours and things, and it takes ALL day, but never 2 whole days unless something goes wrong, or you stop somewhere for some reason, unless its somewhere in the middle of nowhere? 

 

 

Can you go with her on the trip?  I would figure out a way to do that.  

 

If you are the West coast outside of LA the shortest flight to Istanbul is 17+ hours. Most flights are 20-30 hours to just get to Istanbul. I believe all the international flights go into Istanbul. From Istanbul he would have to fly to another city or take a bus depending on what he wants to spend. I could easily see it taking 2 days to travel to the smaller cities in Turkey that don't have their own airport because a car or bus would be the only options.

 

To the OP, I personally would stick to the 2 weeks. That is long enough for a child that age. I understand the father's perspective though too because Turks seem to want to stay with relatives for months at a time but this isn't something I would be comfortable with with a young child.

 

If you want to go on the trip my questions are how much do you get along with the ex and his family and how fluent are you in Turkish? Outside of Istanbul or the resort cities it is very difficult to get around without a decent level of Turkish. Even in parts of Istanbul outside of the tourist areas it's difficult to get around in English without knowing Turkish too.

post #71 of 71

Just letting you all know, thsi thread is 4 months old with no new posts from the OP since then.

 

If the OP is around, what ever came of this?

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Single Parenting
Mothering › Forums › Parenting › Life as a Parent › Single Parenting › Should I let my daughter go to Turkey at age 3?