mythical parents

[alwayslearning66]

I referred to our 4 year old foster son's view of his birth father in another post and wanted some advice on this piece specifically. He  refers to his "Daddy", the birth dad who has never been consistently present, but obviously has some mythical power.This father has the same name with a Sr., I'll call them Big Ben and BJ. The other day BJ said to a kid who irked him, "My daddy is Big Ben and he will..." before being cut off. Another kid in preschool has an absent father and has talked about this a bit in front of me. I suspect this is part of the reason this is coming out now. Anyway, I finally told him yesterday that "Big Ben is your birth dad and that everyone has a birth dad and birth mom. But, not every birth parent can be a good parent. Big Ben seems to realize this and this is why you've not heard from him." BJ's response was quiet contemplation and then ventured from musing that BB is at a fair (!) to that BB is going to a school for adults. I said we know he's in X state and is working, but that is all we know. He thought that his birth mom would know and we suggested he ask her in a letter or when they speak on the phone when that gets arranged. He dropped the subject and switched tracks quickly.

I'm just curious how people have covered these topics with their foster children. Especially when there's a myth built up around one parent or another. I'm very aware that BB has chosen to abandon his child for reasons that I'll never know for sure. Of course I wouldn't use "abandon" but I'm hoping that I didn't go to far with yesterday's conversation. It was the first time I mentioned the idea of being a good parent. I've especially avoided this since the birth mom's TPR is up in the air at this time.

Cheers!

[Tigerchild]

I think you probably did the best you could, but I think that response was inappropriate.

It's not up to you to attempt to change or manipulate his feelings for his birth parent, and it sounds like you slammed the door shut on that conversation.  Though to be honest, every parent messes up/could have handled a particular discussion better where you supported his feelings rather than telling him he was wrong.  I've done it as a parent, too.

I think it would have been better to support him in "It sounds like you miss BB.  It sounds like you wish that he was able to be here and protect you.  You think that BB would be able to help you and prevent XYZ from happening to you."  Let him talk it out.  WHen you put BB as the bad guy (or try to), it's only going to backfire onto you, because BJ is going to feel internally defensive.

I think it's different when a kid asks your opinion.  If he'd asked you outright "Why isn't BB here? Why doesn't he want to be around me?" I think that's when the decision to talk about parental choices in an age appropriate and *relationship appropriate* manner enters in.

Every kid has their fantasies, to be blunt.  Whether it's their imaginary friend, their daddy in real life, big brother, ect.  I suspect that your foster son knows more than you think he does about the reality of his situation, no matter what he says for other kids' benefits at school or in the context of relating to other people.  To me the fact that he dropped the matter quickly when you say he did speaks volumes that he DOES know.

[alwayslearning66]

I see your point. I was trying to get away preempt that it was dfs' fault (birth dad suddenly dropped visits without warning on his own accord last summer) and that his birth dad made a choice in his best interest. I too usually let these things lie until the child directly asks, but the judge and defense lawyer threw me in our last hearing by demanding to know why I didn't probe and instruct. Even though I answered that I follow the child's lead due to developmental readiness, I am probably eager to "please the court" despite that I should know best. Thanks for that reminder.

[heatherdeg]

And I see YOUR point in wanting to do the right thing, but I would suggest that the courts are beyond oblivious to what the best way to handle children is.  Seriously.  And no matter what you do, they're either going to be "for" you and make everything you do into a good thing, or not--and everything you do will be wrong.  So do what's in your heart.

It sounds like what you did wasn't exactly in your heart.  I agree with Tigerchild.  And I think that at 4yo, that would be too much to understand even if it were appropriate.

My father was beyond a bastard.  My mother never uttered a negative word about him.  He was absent, so it was easy to make him a knight in shining armor--and it was all we had to cling to (since my home with mom was one the state probably should've been involved in, and probably as disturbing to us as being in foster care to a foster child).  In time, I learned what my father was by his involvement or absence.  And most people I know that had a mythical "perfect" parent that was absent during their lives managed to come to reality by the time they were an adult and realized that whatever that parent was, they were absent.

It can be hard to hear them in their fantasies--especially when you KNOW the realities.  We had a 12yo that thought his dad was in jail for not paying child support... for 5 years already.  He was, in fact, in jail for some sort of sexual misconduct against a child under 13yo (I can't remember exactly what, but I found him on a sexual predator website).  It really wasn't my place to correct this child's information.  I can't imagine how incredibly hurtful and damaging that would've been on top of already dealing with being in foster care.  Of course, the fp of his 13yo sister didn't feel the same (and that whole thing led to the sister landing in a shelter  :(  ).

Unless it's actually doing them harm, I would leave it alone.  At any age.  With the POSSIBLE exception of a much older teen--but I'm not sure.  I know that even at that age, it would COMPLETELY depend on the child & situation.

[Smithie]

"We had a 12yo that thought his dad was in jail for not paying child support... for 5 years already.  He was, in fact, in jail for some sort of sexual misconduct against a child under 13yo ..."

Ouch. I can see why, as a fp, you wouldn't share that, but as adoptive parent I feel like I would have to share that for safety reasons - unless I intended for my kid not to have any Facebook or cell phone or other ways that they could be contacted without me as an intermediary. (Which sounds appealing to me some days, all foster/adopt issues aside!) 

[heatherdeg]

Originally Posted by Smithie 

"We had a 12yo that thought his dad was in jail for not paying child support... for 5 years already.  He was, in fact, in jail for some sort of sexual misconduct against a child under 13yo ..."

Ouch. I can see why, as a fp, you wouldn't share that, but as adoptive parent I feel like I would have to share that for safety reasons - unless I intended for my kid not to have any Facebook or cell phone or other ways that they could be contacted without me as an intermediary. (Which sounds appealing to me some days, all foster/adopt issues aside!) 

Considering that guy was going to be in jail until his son was 18yo or older, I disagree with you.  Twelve and newly transitioned (frankly, either one of those on their own) is neither the time nor the place for divulging that information.  When he is fully settled and even then, only when he's old enough to understand sexual relations would I ever be the bearer of bad news.  The only exception would be if contact were initiated from either side in a way that I couldn't intercept or redirect it until that child was in a position to be able to handle it.  If the father initiated but was still in jail (and I had finalized adoption), that's easy enough to intercept.  If my son wanted to write a letter to his dad, I would be sure to "not know how to get a letter to jail" and encourage him to write a letter anyway to get it out and have it ready to send when he gets out of jail or whatever.

[alwayslearning66]

This situation, as all these situations, sounds extraordinorily unique and you obviously have thought through all the ins and outs of protecting the children in your home. I have one comment regarding when a child is ready to understand sexual relations. A 12 year old newly transitioned is not one to probe on this issue, however our 7 year old has been exposed to the idea of "private parts" for the last 3 years through the book Amazing You: All About Your Private Parts. Our 4 yo dfs is now also party to these readings, especially since the 7 year old was fascinated enough by his bathroom habits as to attempt to help him by holding his penis!  There is also general info with pictures re. conception with love being a foundation. I can foresee introducing the idea of inappropriate touch by adults at some point as she becomes more independent. For now, she knows her private parts are not to share with friends in the closet where they like to play together nor anyone else who is not her parents or doctor. Would I disclose that adults have the capability of overpowering a child or other such specifics? If asked, yes likely, but not if the adult were her birth parent. Mostly, I'd stick to the bottom line of private means private and not everyone respects that (using developmentally appropriate language).

[Smithie]

I'm pretty sure heatherdeg was not saying that a 12 y.o. didn't understand about sexual relationships. All the 12 yo.'s I know are real clear on it (not that everything they know is RIGHT, but they certainly have detailed theories, LOL).

And yeah, if biodad is reliably under lock and key for years to come, I can see why that discussion could wait even in an adoptive home. But that is the kind of thing I'd share with my kids' therapist, because I think it's most likely that a kid from that situation knows a great deal about the sexual abuse perpetrated by his father, but is not willing to betray him by admitting it. And obviously this will cause some issues that he will need help with. 

[heatherdeg]

Originally Posted by Smithie 

I'm pretty sure heatherdeg was not saying that a 12 y.o. didn't understand about sexual relationships. All the 12 yo.'s I know are real clear on it (not that everything they know is RIGHT, but they certainly have detailed theories, LOL).

And yeah, if biodad is reliably under lock and key for years to come, I can see why that discussion could wait even in an adoptive home. But that is the kind of thing I'd share with my kids' therapist, because I think it's most likely that a kid from that situation knows a great deal about the sexual abuse perpetrated by his father, but is not willing to betray him by admitting it. And obviously this will cause some issues that he will need help with. 

I taught high school.  Even kids that age know the MECHANICS better than the nuances.  And that's what I meant.

I would TOTALLY share it with their therapist.  And I think this comes down to the specific situation.  I was giving an example.  In my particular 12yo fs's case, he had no idea because the parents were divorce when he was a toddler or infant--long before he was incarcerated.  He had very little contact with his father, but enough that he KNEW his father--ya know?  If he had been living with his dad, I would likely worry about what he'd sexually experienced, too.  Which would be all the more reason to get the therapist involved.

At the end of the day, it's just not my place to shatter whatever delusions the kids have about their parents no matter how friggin infuriating (and sometimes, it totally has been... and others, incredibly sad  :(  ).  That was my real point.  :)
 

[queenjane]

Originally Posted by heatherdeg 

 

At the end of the day, it's just not my place to shatter whatever delusions the kids have about their parents no matter how friggin infuriating (and sometimes, it totally has been... and others, incredibly sad  :(  ).  That was my real point.  :)
 

I think there may be a distinction between the kind of magical thinking that is common amongst foster kids, and knowledge of the facts of a case/info about bparents. When my daughter first moved in, she'd tell these fantastic stories of her mother basically saving the world...she hung the moon, apparently. I let that go...i didnt say "im pretty sure you didnt live in a mansion with your mom, with staff." That would just be mean because, frankly, she KNOWS what she is saying isnt true. But, on the other hand, she has the right to know facts about her own history, facts she doesnt remember or that have been withheld from her. She has the right to grow up knowing WHY she was taken, why she can't ever go back home, and when she came to me, she basically only heard her mom's version of events.

I've tried to sort of weave info that i know into conversations. Once, we somehow got on the subject of her mom. And i said something like "yknow, sometimes when girls have babies very young, they dont know how to take care of them. Sometimes they dont know the right way to treat a baby. " i forget exactly how i worded it, but i stated how she came into care for the first time as an infant due to physical abuse. And she said "thats not true! that didnt happen!" because she had no idea that it did, and i gently explained the incident that brought her into care the first time. She got quiet but i think it made an impact that maybe her mom wasnt so innocent after all. And then later she tried to say how the incident that brought her into care the third time was all her brother's dad's fault, and i told her it didnt happen that way, that i was in court and heard her mother admit to her guilt in it, on the stand, under oath to the judge. But in doing that, i also agreed with her that her mom DID do alot of work in trying to get her back, it just wasnt enough in the judge's eyes. I dont think it would be healthy for her to spend the next ten years operating under the assumption her mother got railroaded. I always tell her the good things i see in her mom, the things she did right. I've even told her some of her mom's history, how she herself was in foster care, how she tried to do a better job than her own mother. That sort of thing. Recently, she told me something about her mom (that i already knew), but it was a huge leap for her to actually tell me something "shameful" (it wasnt that shameful actually) and negative about her mom. It was the first time EVER she said anything remotely negative. (I think she thought that if she shared the bad as well as the good, that she would be betraying her.)

However, there is an incident that occurred that brought her into care for the second time that is so incredibly devastating (not involving abuse or anything like that) that i dont know WHEN i will share this with her. Its too soon, and our attachment to each other is too fragile, to share it now. But i think she deserves to know the WHOLE truth at some point in the next couple of years. (Plus, i'd like to actually talk to her bmom about what was written in the report to get her version of events because its certainly possible its not an accurate portrayal of what happened.)

There is a book called Telling the Truth to your Adopted or Foster Child (or something like that) that really made an impact on me. I used to think there was some things that should wait until a child is an adult, but in this book the author is adamant that you tell the entire story before puberty. That the child must be able to process it before going through the teenage years, and that finding out big stuff during the teen or young adult years is a really bad time.

My dd's father will be in prison until she is an adult, and i've told her the charge. I dont see the point in protecting her from that, it is what it is.

I should add...i am not sure it would be appropriate or my place to have these sorts of conversations with a temporary foster child, i might handle things differently in that situation than with a child i was adopting.

[heatherdeg]

I think my example with the 12yo probably wasn't the best example because there are just too many intricacies to something like that and I could detail them all out here, but that makes it a point with way more effort to make the point than it was worth.    I need to start going to bed earlier.  Suffice it to say that I just think there is an appropriate time and way to bring the reality to a child without destroying their emotional state--and that timeline is theirs, not mine, unless they are in some sort of danger otherwise (emotionally or physically).

[Polliwog]

Katherine, thanks for sharing your story.  It sounds like you are handling it well.

Originally Posted by queenjane 

Originally Posted by heatherdeg 

 

At the end of the day, it's just not my place to shatter whatever delusions the kids have about their parents no matter how friggin infuriating (and sometimes, it totally has been... and others, incredibly sad  :(  ).  That was my real point.  :)
 

I think there may be a distinction between the kind of magical thinking that is common amongst foster kids, and knowledge of the facts of a case/info about bparents. When my daughter first moved in, she'd tell these fantastic stories of her mother basically saving the world...she hung the moon, apparently. I let that go...i didnt say "im pretty sure you didnt live in a mansion with your mom, with staff." That would just be mean because, frankly, she KNOWS what she is saying isnt true. But, on the other hand, she has the right to know facts about her own history, facts she doesnt remember or that have been withheld from her. She has the right to grow up knowing WHY she was taken, why she can't ever go back home, and when she came to me, she basically only heard her mom's version of events.

I've tried to sort of weave info that i know into conversations. Once, we somehow got on the subject of her mom. And i said something like "yknow, sometimes when girls have babies very young, they dont know how to take care of them. Sometimes they dont know the right way to treat a baby. " i forget exactly how i worded it, but i stated how she came into care for the first time as an infant due to physical abuse. And she said "thats not true! that didnt happen!" because she had no idea that it did, and i gently explained the incident that brought her into care the first time. She got quiet but i think it made an impact that maybe her mom wasnt so innocent after all. And then later she tried to say how the incident that brought her into care the third time was all her brother's dad's fault, and i told her it didnt happen that way, that i was in court and heard her mother admit to her guilt in it, on the stand, under oath to the judge. But in doing that, i also agreed with her that her mom DID do alot of work in trying to get her back, it just wasnt enough in the judge's eyes. I dont think it would be healthy for her to spend the next ten years operating under the assumption her mother got railroaded. I always tell her the good things i see in her mom, the things she did right. I've even told her some of her mom's history, how she herself was in foster care, how she tried to do a better job than her own mother. That sort of thing. Recently, she told me something about her mom (that i already knew), but it was a huge leap for her to actually tell me something "shameful" (it wasnt that shameful actually) and negative about her mom. It was the first time EVER she said anything remotely negative. (I think she thought that if she shared the bad as well as the good, that she would be betraying her.)

However, there is an incident that occurred that brought her into care for the second time that is so incredibly devastating (not involving abuse or anything like that) that i dont know WHEN i will share this with her. Its too soon, and our attachment to each other is too fragile, to share it now. But i think she deserves to know the WHOLE truth at some point in the next couple of years. (Plus, i'd like to actually talk to her bmom about what was written in the report to get her version of events because its certainly possible its not an accurate portrayal of what happened.)

There is a book called Telling the Truth to your Adopted or Foster Child (or something like that) that really made an impact on me. I used to think there was some things that should wait until a child is an adult, but in this book the author is adamant that you tell the entire story before puberty. That the child must be able to process it before going through the teenage years, and that finding out big stuff during the teen or young adult years is a really bad time.

My dd's father will be in prison until she is an adult, and i've told her the charge. I dont see the point in protecting her from that, it is what it is.

I should add...i am not sure it would be appropriate or my place to have these sorts of conversations with a temporary foster child, i might handle things differently in that situation than with a child i was adopting.