Project STOP the cavities

[Theloose]

Ds is 9mo, and had 7 teeth by 6mo.  The top front ones (all 4, I think) had white spots last month and now they're full blown pits, and they're getting bigger by the day.  Needless to say, I'm FREAKING OUT and want it to stop, NOW.  He's also biting things more and grinding his teeth lately and I'm putting big money on it being related.

Dd had cavities early too, at 12mo, I've researched all the healing stuff, clearly something's not working, though.  Hers have mostly slowed down, but are looking worse lately as well.  She's 4, and still nursing.

What's in the house:

Xylitol tooth gel

Baby toothbrush

kid and adult toothpaste with fluoride

clay, including the 'tooth powder' or whatever samples that they mailed with my order

cell salts (I have him on 1 each of calc fluor and calc phos, 3x/day, per PB)

bones to make broth

beef shanks (with lots of marrow) cooking for dinner, I already gave him some marrow bites

frozen lamb liver

10lbs grassfed butter

a tiny bit of HVBO

rotten FCLO

frozen salmon roe

5000IU vit D supp

UVB lamp

leafy greens

ds eats any and everything we offer, in quantity (his choice), so getting stuff into him will not be an issue.  (is that a clue as to why his teeth are falling apart?  bad absorption?)  He also insists on eating anything that we are, and dd has a thing for carbs so he gets a fair bit of stuff like raw apple, banana, etc, he started stealing rice (cooked in bone broth) too.  In the last couple days, he's been craving butter, just straight, and I've been giving it to him.

I'm off of gluten, dairy other than butter, and a bazillion other things, cause of my own sensitivities.  I vaguely suspect he might be sensitive to coconut or eggs, eaten directly, but he's eating them now without clear symptoms and cutting them out would be a big stressful deal at this point.  I was low on vit A while pg with him, and just improved my own vit A status with fish oil supps in the same timeframe that his teeth started to get bad (not sure which happened first, the vit A or the spots).  I'm off of A for a few weeks now, and have requested labs to get my D checked.  It was 60 right after he was born.

To top it all off, I'm still just barely surviving day-to-day, and barely have a minute to sit down and think.  What I need most here is a plan.  Help me out?  What's the plan?

Already working on:

cell salts

xylitol gel, 4x/day

vit D (gave him 5000iu yesterday, will repeat sunday/monday, probably)

[Koalamom]

Oh mama,  That is sucha bummer.  I know how I try so hard and my dd still got cavities.  So if your lo has cavities, what were you doing while he got them and what is new that you added.  Like are the cell salts new as I would say try those but since you are already doing those perhaps try lactose free ones.  Is your LO showing any food allergy signs like on the skin?

For my kids I had to cut even butter out and that made a huge difference. 

[Koalamom]

I wanted to add that I know just what you mean getting from day to day.  Oh what do we try so hard as parents and have things like this happen?  We recntly wnt grain free and with grain, dairy, soy, and perhaps eggs out, I feel like there is nothing left to eat especially when the produce isn't that fresh in the stores.  So I have a plan to be positive and write what we can eat instead of what we can't eat.  And I noticed that we just arent having smoothies lately since it is so cold so I have started eating home grown sprouts with meals.

[Theloose]

his entire life (and the past 3.5 years), I've been working on figuring out and healing the stupid food sensitivities. I've been off of both butter (all dairy) and eggs and am pretty confident that I'm not reacting to them. When I say stressful to remove... I don't have the mental energy, dh doesn't have the psychological reserves, and we rely on them too much for nutrition. I just lost cane sugar and peanuts and it's devastating me. Those weren't even common foods for me to eat!

As for signs of allergies, he gets a few really mild bumpy rashes, will have trouble napping, and has slight GI issues. Most can be easily tracked to something I'm doing/eating.

The cell salts, I'm still getting started with them, so I still have hope. What was I doing when they started? Taking vitamin A, getting sick over and over for a month (colds and stomach flu), starting on cell salts myself, battling thrush (in him). Which reminds me, add increasing my biotin to the list of what I'm doing already.

Sorry I'm grouchy, dd trialed herself on dairy yesterday and so I didn't get to sleep much last night.

[narnia51483]

I'm so glad I found this thread!

DD is 17mo, and has the same problems on her top front 4 teeth.  It is so frustrating because I don't know what is causing it.  We've been to the dentist several times, and he just says keep an eye on it, keep them clean, wait until they come in more... at 2 years we can put a sealant or resin on them to prevent further wear.  They are wearing down and chipping easily, bit by bit, day by day.  Celiac runs in my family, we are trying our best to avoid gluten.  She has an appt. with our holistic ped. next friday, earliest we could see him.  I don't know what he'll say/do/prescribe/suggest.  I have recently seen that cod liver oil can supposedly help remineralize teeth, going to stock up at his office when there (fsa doesn't question office visit charges that aren't specified, but won't pay for supplements they see on receipts shipped through the mail.)

Good luck with yours.  I'm contemplating buying the book "Cure Tooth Decay Naturally".  It has tons of info on nutrition and the effects of our modern diets on dental development and health.
 

[tanyalynn]

Theloose-- I saw vitamin A deplete K2 in us, so that's a thought.  Even though you seem to get enough dietarily, well, my mantra is that the weird stuff going on in people with health issues makes it a whole lot harder to get enough intake just from food.  I'm the queen of supplements. 

Part of what I've done for us is to just try to give more nutrients than I think we need, and at least for us, most of the time (with a few notable exceptions) our bodies have grabbed what we need without causing too many imbalances along the way.

Cell salts sound great, you could bump up the frequency if it would make you feel better, and now that you're dealing with this in addition to just general health healing. 

I am a fan of Thorne K2 liquid, it's really easy to dose, and that's one that I don't think I've messed up other stuff by supplementing.  At least as far as I know--but I was giving DS a ton and a half for a year or two there--maybe I missed something, but that seems like an easier one to give.  And you wouldn't need to give more than a drop a day, or a drop every few days. 

Minerals... you have good ideas on how to get good amounts into the kids, something like lentils cooked in homemade stock do nice on the calcium and phosphorus, if he'll eat stuff from a spoon.  I'm using the 24-hour soak / re-use some of the soak water as a bacterial inoculant approach from wholehealthsource.blogspot.com for lentils, even though the original post was for rice. 

Sick recently--how's your zinc?  It plays a lesser role in bone stuff, but maybe it's part of what's off recently? 

I haven't had to use the xylitol and stuff type of approach.  I did choose eco-dent tooth powder because it has some data on re-mineralization of teeth, but I'm not sure any of the flavors would be okay for you.  No fluoride, not sure how you feel on that one. 

Do you have a probiotic for him?  Have you considered an infant probiotic?  May be a better fit than foods, given his age?  I really don't know how that shakes out, especially in a kid who's already eating solids--but I thought that gut bacteria didn't shift all the way to the adult spectrum til age 4-ish, so maybe something infant-focused would help--I just mention it since you mentioned stomach flu. 

And I don't know how it would play in, maybe just in a general taking stress off type of way, but if he needs more methylation going on, how's your B12?  I forgot, have you taken methyl B12?  And how's your folate, still seem ok?  I started real supps to DS at 14 mos, but I don't know about 9 mos.  I love our methylation supps though (and watching DS be able to spit enough into the tube tonight was cool--he really couldn't a month ago, and I fiddled with his pills and voila, more saliva).  So it's not that you want to reduce saliva so much as normalize it via normalizing methylation, maybe.

[Koalamom]

Tanya- great info!! 

What is this about methalation and spit?  Please share more.

Theloose- I agree about the vit A messing wth vit D and K2. 

I remember when we were big dairy eaters, I cut it all out except butter or ghee and we were looking good.  I realized after that that I always had to take digestive enzymes for my stomach to feel good, and I decided to take the leap and cut the ghee out and I could stop the enzymes as my stomach felt better.  And my gums no longer bled, and I mean that I could stop wrooying about flossing every single night and not have them fall apart.  It was those litle things that made me realize that butter was a big issue.  I know it is very big source of nutrients but for the fats there are may great alterantives and for the cla- grass fed meats, and k2 well the thorne product is great.  Just a thought but it sounds like you are doing everything right and giving your kids super nutrients, so it may be one of the super foods causing absorption issues.  Just talking from a mama whose kid still got cavities afer following the curing cavities with nutrition perfectly.  What a blow.  

[tanyalynn]

I didn't originally stumble across the methylation - saliva interaction, someone else mentioned it when I said that DS couldn't spit, he barely made any saliva--and I was trying to get a saliva sample, so it was a problem.  So I cut back on several of his supps, and now, a month later, he can spit!  He filled the vial.

The connection (do I understand the causality here?  oh no)... high histamine implies methylation not running nicely to clear it, and high histamine correlates to lots of spit.  My methylation's been a bit slow, given how I'm seeing my enviro allergies kick up a bit, and I have plenty of saliva, so it was interesting to see the opposite side of it from DS.  DS and I do well on methyl donors, so it's an easy thing for us to tweak. 

[Theloose]

sigh. Talking about cutting foods is stressful. I was off all traces of dairy for about a year. Tested ghee on and off for a looong time before I called it a pass. Was on just ghee for a year or more before testing butter, and went back and forth on butter for a long time (it did nothing noticeable through me, but caused a slight sandpaper rash on dd if she ate it directly). Enterolabs says dairy is fine for me. Right now butter is the *only* fat I feel confident is safe, other than fat on meat. Good fat for making tallow and lard is hard hard hard to find around here, and at the rate we go through the stuff, I would be spending every spare moment in the kitchen, rendering. I am at a point where I need to be spending every spare moment playing with dd cause all this allergy healing has taken me away from her too much. Without a MAJOR smoking gun, butter is staying.

The methylation thing I found a few years ago. I don't even remember what I was researching (probably dd's cavities) and came across a bunch of stuff about kids starting asthma inhalers and suddenly getting cavities. There was enough there to convince me it was a histamine thing affecting saliva production.

I might have expired k2 capsules. I'm just hesitant about relying on them, cause I never noticed anything from them with dd. And I've noticed A-induced fatigue in me that gets better with HVBO but not the (unexpired) K2. I just got my D tested yesterday, hopefully I'll get the results today or really soon. In the mean time, I'm going to load up on butter and greens. I *do* think I need more greens for the K. Dd's covered in bruises. Yesterday, ds was way into playing with the butter (talk about a mess!) but wasn't craving it like a couple days ago.

The weird thing about the cell salts is that I seem to be crazy sensitive to them, especially calc flour and calc phos, which PB says are going to be huge for me. At 1 tab, 3x/day, ds is on a higher dose than I am. That messes with my head.

Hehe, lentils in bone broth was dinner last night My zinc, I need to ke up with supps to keep it good. Ds, I was actually wondering about zinc before the cavities got so bad, cause he kept biting everything. I just made dd puke from zinc a few days ago. Feeling trigger shy, but I'll make it happen today.

I had baby probiotics for him, but used up the bottle. He happily eats sauerkraut. Think it's worth getting more?

Methylation, both of ours is running just a bit slow. For him, that means lots of drool, which I'm thinking is a good thing right now, so I'm not ready to give him any b12. For me, it was triggered by starting hydroxy b12, so I'm not sure what's going on there. Increased nerve action and increased need for neurotransmitters, maybe?

Okay, to focus it all, I want a plan. What am I doing/giving today and tomorrow, what am I going to do for myself? Do I need to implement a plan for dh as well (he'll be stressed and skeptical. Today's his last day at a job he loves, to go and start at a high risk, but awesome start up. He doesn't need more stress!)

And now to care for the baby...

[Panserbjorne]

I sound like a broken record...but for the nursing kiddos with the cavities on the upper four front teeth...is the frenulum tight?  Is there milk pooling there?  If that's the case you're going to be working against that.

[Theloose]

yeah, the front labial frenulum is tight.  The cavities are on the backs of his teeth too, though, and not the bottom teeth.  Is it time to search out someone who will cut?  So not looking forward to that...

[Panserbjorne]

Originally Posted by Theloose 

yeah, the front labial frenulum is tight.  The cavities are on the backs of his teeth too, though, and not the bottom teeth.  Is it time to search out someone who will cut?  So not looking forward to that...

I'm not saying that.  I'm just saying that it would be a maintaining cause and this situation can be an obstacle to cure.  Not an insurmountable one necessarily-you'd have to evaluate what you felt was the best avenue.  It just means that it's not a purely nutritional issue, if you follow me.

[mom61508]

Originally Posted by Panserbjorne 

I sound like a broken record...but for the nursing kiddos with the cavities on the upper four front teeth...is the frenulum tight?  Is there milk pooling there?  If that's the case you're going to be working against that.

This is/was DD.

Theloose I nursed DD till 18 months(she's 21/2 now) but around 10 months I noticed her 4 top front teeth had the white like your DS has and they turned into yellow/brownish spots over the nexI't few months. However after I weaned her at 18 months they stopped getting worse. At 2 1/2 now they haven't gotten worse and actually 1 front tooth looks a lot better without me doing anything drastic for her teeth.   Anyway DD has a tight frenulum that is pretty thick and I'm guessing that was the main reason for her front teeth to start decaying. She refuses to brush her front teeth because I imagine the frenulum makes it uncomfortable for her. I'm considering her getting snipped but it makes me nervous. I need to research it some more.

[Theloose]

Is there a way to tell if the milk is pooling, other than the cavities there?  What sorts of things are we looking at as alternatives to cutting?  We've been putting xylitol on after he detaches at night.  Is it that sort of stuff?

Dd's cavities showed up at a year old, at the same time that she got thrush, but hers were just on the front of one top tooth, and the backs of two others.  We did topical fluoride for her and glass ionomer temporary fillings that lasted about a year.  The decay seems to have slowed to a crawl, but it's still going and she's still nursing (at 4yo).  At least in part thanks to the stupid dentist (dd and I are both still traumatized by her) 3 of her teeth are seriously crumbling away though.

[Panserbjorne]

I don't know.  I was able to halt and reverse with tissue salts and elimination of certain foods....sugar and starches as well as the addition of others (meat and eggs.)  Ultimately though I still had the revisions done.  I personally regret waiting, so I'm not the best person to ask.

[lookatreestar]

Originally Posted by Panserbjorne 

Originally Posted by Theloose 

yeah, the front labial frenulum is tight.  The cavities are on the backs of his teeth too, though, and not the bottom teeth.  Is it time to search out someone who will cut?  So not looking forward to that...

I'm not saying that.  I'm just saying that it would be a maintaining cause and this situation can be an obstacle to cure.  Not an insurmountable one necessarily-you'd have to evaluate what you felt was the best avenue.  It just means that it's not a purely nutritional issue, if you follow me.

hmm, i think this is my ds. he only has the brown on his top 4 teeth, all the rest look perfect. eek. is the tight frenulum part of midline issuse? (he has the sacral dimple too...) he never had any kind of latch issues at all.
 

[Panserbjorne]

Originally Posted by lookatreestar 

Originally Posted by Panserbjorne 

Originally Posted by Theloose 

yeah, the front labial frenulum is tight.  The cavities are on the backs of his teeth too, though, and not the bottom teeth.  Is it time to search out someone who will cut?  So not looking forward to that...

I'm not saying that.  I'm just saying that it would be a maintaining cause and this situation can be an obstacle to cure.  Not an insurmountable one necessarily-you'd have to evaluate what you felt was the best avenue.  It just means that it's not a purely nutritional issue, if you follow me.

hmm, i think this is my ds. he only has the brown on his top 4 teeth, all the rest look perfect. eek. is the tight frenulum part of midline issuse? (he has the sacral dimple too...) he never had any kind of latch issues at all.
 

indeed.
 

[Theloose]

Let's see if this works...  Here's ds, you can sort of see the frenulum in the picture.  He never had anything remotely resembling latch issues either.  He's also got tight frenulae(?) on the sides, like right where the molars would start.  I didn't even realize there WERE frenulae there.  And yeah, mild sacral dimple, too.

[Koalamom]

Cute kiddo!  Some pic and gave me a good morning laugh.   How in the world did you get him to hold for you?  Ha, ha!  I heard another stoyr of someone whos kids couldn't talk hardly and went to the amazing laser edentist in N?Y and a minute or two after the frmdlum and toungetie were snippoed, he started talking up a storm!  That is always an option to go there...

[Panserbjorne]

yup, that's a tight one.