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Project STOP the cavities - Page 2

post #21 of 55


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theloose View Post

Let's see if this works...  Here's ds, you can sort of see the frenulum in the picture.  He never had anything remotely resembling latch issues either.  He's also got tight frenulae(?) on the sides, like right where the molars would start.  I didn't even realize there WERE frenulae there.  And yeah, mild sacral dimple, too.

 



Upper or lower molars?  Where do they attach?  Is that almost where dimples are? 

 

And now, of course, I need to ask my kids to pull out their upper lips--I never considered that being tight on either kid.  DD has a really thick frenulum between her top front teeth but I haven't seen issues from it other than the dental crowding it's causing. 

 

PB--how does the frenulum being tight in front cause cavities on the back of the teeth?  And... how can you tell that's tight?  Theloose--is that as far as your DS's lip will comfortably move away from his teeth?

post #22 of 55

anywhere that you have tight attachments creating pockets where milk can pool can create a optimal situation for degradation.

 

the way it was explained to me is that you should be able to sweep your finger under the tongue and in front of those upper teeth unimpeded.  this is harder as they get older-but on myself I can easily do it.

 

I am definitely not an expert here, I just have far more experience personally than I'd care too.  I've also been working with doctors who send people for the procedure so I get to see before and afters.  That's why I ultimately went.  IT was to rule it out as an issue as DD was starting with genetic testing.

post #23 of 55
Thread Starter 

 

Yeah, we could have pulled his lip a tiny bit further, but he really doesn't like us doing that at all. He picture was me holding him, dh pulling the lip back and chasing him with the camera. This was the only halfway decent pic of about 5 lol.gif The side ones are on the top, closer to the front. When I find mine, it's way up high, between my first and second pre-molars, I think. Nowhere near dimple land, closer to upper lip land. And geez, what's the anatomy of a dimple? Please tell me dimples are purely cute and meaningless!
post #24 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theloose View Post

 

 Please tell me dimples are purely cute and meaningless!
 


they mean something in homeopathy...but not on their own, within the context of the whole.  but they are pretty cute.

post #25 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theloose View Post

 

Yeah, we could have pulled his lip a tiny bit further, but he really doesn't like us doing that at all. He picture was me holding him, dh pulling the lip back and chasing him with the camera. This was the only halfway decent pic of about 5 lol.gif The side ones are on the top, closer to the front. When I find mine, it's way up high, between my first and second pre-molars, I think. Nowhere near dimple land, closer to upper lip land. And geez, what's the anatomy of a dimple? Please tell me dimples are purely cute and meaningless!
 


Okay, so I started sweeping my finger around (for those non-front frenulae) and I can feel a bit on myself.  I had no idea that was there. 

 

post #26 of 55
Thread Starter 

 

Also, looking at it, this frenulum (ds's front) goes all the way down to his teeth. When I pull my lip back and look in the mirror, it's high up there.

Just thinking about the mechanics of saliva flow and stuff, it's making sense to me that this is probably a major contributor in our case, but I'm still thinking nutrients/other support are missing as well, since dd and I have the same bad teeth without the frenulum issue. If the lip can't move properly, then it's not rubbing against the teeth well to clean them. And saliva can't flow freely through there, and even if it's not a puddle, there'd still be a layer of milk that isn't washing away.

Limiting sugars and starches isn't going to be a practical long term option in our house. So it sounds like we'd be looking at a lifetime habit of cell salts, frequent water sipping, and topical xylitol. Only the water wouldn't be as good as saliva, cause it wouldn't have the same remineralizing effect.

Looking at cutting... I think I can find someone here who uses a laser. There's no way ds would hold still. I know I should just talk to this person, but are we looking at sedation? General? How long is the healing time? How traumatic is it to the person getting the procedure? What other supports can help minimize the trauma?
post #27 of 55
Thread Starter 

 

Okay, good on the dimples. And yeah, I had no idea the side ones were there either, until I saw them on ds. They're pretty clear on him. That's part of what's making me really think this is a big part of it for him - all these frenulae creating a little cage to trap in the food. Grrr...
post #28 of 55

Sitting still isn't usually an issue from my experience, from the experience of the doc that did it and from talking to others that have done it.  It takes under a minute.

 

dd wasn't traumatized in the slightest.  ds didn't enjoy it.  However I wasn't with him and for him I think he was more afraid than anything.  we talked a lot, used homeopathy and flowers and it's really been fine.  He used gas on both as well as novocaine.

 

I'd say it took a week to look as though nothing had happened.  2 days before I could slack on remedies.  We did a lot to help it though and I will say the doc was pretty suprised.  I used homeopathy, cell salts and two herbs.  They fussed initially so I increased the potency of the remedy and never heard about it again-except for first thing in the morning for two days following the procedure (which would have been the case with meds too after a good night's sleep.)

 

I'm certainly not saying there isn't an underlying nutritional issue...just that a mechanical issue can exacerbate that and prevent you from seeing swift changes.

 

post #29 of 55

PB, can you lay out the whole list of things that are possibly caused/related to the upper frenulum not being quite right?  And is the cutting you're talking about under the lip, or between the top teeth, or both?  I'm trying to figure out whether/how much this applies to us.  I can take both kids' upper lips and fold them up so they touch their noses--do I need to do more to rule this out for us?  DD's teeth have a big space that's causing crowding in her upper jaw, but DS doesn't have that space at all. 

 

Stuff you've already mentioned... (so you don't have to re-type)...

 

-food or drink may pool around the teeth because the lip doesn't move much around/away from the teeth

-is saliva flow affected, hindering remineralization

-speech issues

 

post #30 of 55

hmmm, I'm not sure I'm fully aware of all the issues that are affected.  for sure I can speak to:

 

digestive function

reflux

sinus difficulties

breathing

coordination

balancing the autonomic nervous system

 

there are more, I just can't think right now so I'll be back,  The maxillary frenulum also does seem to affect structure-so the shape of the palate as well.  It's all connected and I was certainly skeptical, but I've seen it make a difference so I called uncle.  Doing the revision changed the way my daughter stands.  I kid you not.  One of the first things I noticed as well (aside from the clear speech changes-which weren't really a *problem* for her) was that her muscles relaxed.  She was hypertonic until she got the revision.  This is in the report from our doctor to the person that performed the procedure.  I'm really suprised at what it affected.

 

They released the entire maxillary frenulum.  For her (and my ds) it went between their teeth and back into their palate.  They released all of it up to basically where the lip meets the gums.  It was kinda hilarious (and yes, I'm sure I'm going to hell for this) right after.  For the first week she couldn't figure out what to do with her lip...there was so much more movement!  She really stumbled, and startled each time she smiled.  Her smile TOTALLY changed.  Of course at 6 she had really integrated things so this was a major change.

 

Ds is 4 and things changed a TON for him, but more in the realm of speech/breathing.  I can't say his structure changed as much as hers, but it did a bit.  Hers was just unbelievable.  She also has a tic, and within a week it diminished in frequency by about 65%.  I'd say it's 80%  better at this point.  The docs believe that the anchoring caused a neurological delay.  The hope is that she'll now be able to progress past that block.  That is what we seem to be seeing.  Time will tell.  She's had it for several years so it will take some time to resolve.  Who knows if it ever will completely.

post #31 of 55
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panserbjorne View Post


Sitting still isn't usually an issue from my experience, from the experience of the doc that did it and from talking to others that have done it.  It takes under a minute.



 



dd wasn't traumatized in the slightest.  ds didn't enjoy it.  However I wasn't with him and for him I think he was more afraid than anything.  we talked a lot, used homeopathy and flowers and it's really been fine.  He used gas on both as well as novocaine.



 



I'd say it took a week to look as though nothing had happened.  2 days before I could slack on remedies.  We did a lot to help it though and I will say the doc was pretty suprised.  I used homeopathy, cell salts and two herbs.  They fussed initially so I increased the potency of the remedy and never heard about it again-except for first thing in the morning for two days following the procedure (which would have been the case with meds too after a good night's sleep.)



 



I'm certainly not saying there isn't an underlying nutritional issue...just that a mechanical issue can exacerbate that and prevent you from seeing swift changes.



 




 



But we're talking a squirmy baby here, getting close to 10mo. He doesn't sit still for much of anything!

And yeah, that's the way I'm seeing it too, that you need the nutrition and the mechanics, and that either alone won't solve the issue by itself.
post #32 of 55

Kotlow in Albany is the guy I'd talk to.  He doesn't seem to have issues with any age.  He even deals quite a bit with autistic children he said (and compliance wouldn't be the strong suite there.)  He may use gas to chill babes out a bit, dunno.  I'd ask.  I had ZERO expectation that either of my kids would sit.  We talked a lot about it beforehand.  I was very, very suprised.  But he does these every day (I liked that) so it's not like he's struggling with an unfamiliar situation...he has experience with all ages.  I went up with a 2 week old as well (not mine) and there were toddlers in there waiting as well.  He has skills, I guess.  LOL.

post #33 of 55

wow his doesn't seem super tight, but as a baby it was in between his two front teeth. wow wow. bolded ones are so my ds!! (need to look up the last one not too sure what it means notes.gif)
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panserbjorne View Post

hmmm, I'm not sure I'm fully aware of all the issues that are affected.  for sure I can speak to:

 

digestive function

reflux

sinus difficulties

breathing

coordination

balancing the autonomic nervous system

 

there are more, I just can't think right now so I'll be back,  The maxillary frenulum also does seem to affect structure-so the shape of the palate as well.  It's all connected and I was certainly skeptical, but I've seen it make a difference so I called uncle.  Doing the revision changed the way my daughter stands.  I kid you not.  One of the first things I noticed as well (aside from the clear speech changes-which weren't really a *problem* for her) was that her muscles relaxed.  She was hypertonic until she got the revision.  This is in the report from our doctor to the person that performed the procedure.  I'm really suprised at what it affected.

 

They released the entire maxillary frenulum.  For her (and my ds) it went between their teeth and back into their palate.  They released all of it up to basically where the lip meets the gums.  It was kinda hilarious (and yes, I'm sure I'm going to hell for this) right after.  For the first week she couldn't figure out what to do with her lip...there was so much more movement!  She really stumbled, and startled each time she smiled.  Her smile TOTALLY changed.  Of course at 6 she had really integrated things so this was a major change.

 

Ds is 4 and things changed a TON for him, but more in the realm of speech/breathing.  I can't say his structure changed as much as hers, but it did a bit.  Hers was just unbelievable.  She also has a tic, and within a week it diminished in frequency by about 65%.  I'd say it's 80%  better at this point.  The docs believe that the anchoring caused a neurological delay.  The hope is that she'll now be able to progress past that block.  That is what we seem to be seeing.  Time will tell.  She's had it for several years so it will take some time to resolve.  Who knows if it ever will completely.

post #34 of 55
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panserbjorne View Post

Kotlow in Albany is the guy I'd talk to.  He doesn't seem to have issues with any age.  He even deals quite a bit with autistic children he said (and compliance wouldn't be the strong suite there.)  He may use gas to chill babes out a bit, dunno.  I'd ask.  I had ZERO expectation that either of my kids would sit.  We talked a lot about it beforehand.  I was very, very suprised.  But he does these every day (I liked that) so it's not like he's struggling with an unfamiliar situation...he has experience with all ages.  I went up with a 2 week old as well (not mine) and there were toddlers in there waiting as well.  He has skills, I guess.  LOL.



I'm guessing you don't mean Albany, CA.  Got any rec's for people in california (or minnesota or texas)?

post #35 of 55
Thread Starter 

Wow, dh and are actually having a productive conversation about this!

 

He's finding stuff about the front frenulum correcting itself around age 10, or when the permanent teeth come in.

http://books.google.com/books?id=pqhzzcjCFH4C&lpg=PA306&ots=nWd7V21SXd&dq=Frenulum%20Labii%20Superioris%20normal&pg=PA306#v=onepage&q=Frenulum%20Labii%20Superioris%20normal&f=false

 

Any way to tell what will correct and what won't?

 

And for the science project folk (cough*tanyacough), any ideas on showing fluid flow with various barriers in place?  I think dh could use a visual on this one.

post #36 of 55

here's a link with some information (not totally complete) on the potential impact without correction:

 

http://www.tonguetie.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3&Itemid=3

 

This is a hard one, because people only know what they're taught and this isn't something that's been taught.  It's something that has come into the public eye in the last few years, but the results speak for themselves.  The people in the forefront are the ones with the answers.  For so long in many areas of medicine people just go with the status quo and look at things through their own lens.  TT is NOT just a breastfeeding problem....but many will still say that it is.  So it's not always enough to simply look at the widely accepted stance.

 

Someone said that even Dr. Kotlow a few years ago said that if breastfeeding was going well not to worry about a tight frenulum.  He's certainly not saying that now. 

 

I'd contact him and see if he has anyone in your area that he could refer you to.  That and just review the information.  If it makes sense to take action, then it makes sense.  If not, then perhaps just stay open to new evidence.

post #37 of 55
Thread Starter 

Wow, from his website:

 

 

 

I think this is *exactly* the sort of thing dh is looking for.  Can't wait till he gets home!  Thanks love.gif

post #38 of 55

he really has a lot of great info.  I'm glad you found it helpful!

post #39 of 55
Thread Starter 

Yeah.  Holy moly.  Dh and I had a civil conversation, he did some research on his own, he listened to my explanations, I framed things in ways he was responsive to (engineering fluid dynamics vs 'someone online said') and neither one of us got super stressed or defensive.  And now... he's on board with finding someone to do this 'revision.'  We both think calling it a revision is odd, though shy.gif

 

I think I'm crediting glutathione letting me keep my cool so it could be an organized and rational conversation.  I heartbeat.gif glutathione.

post #40 of 55

and it loves you!

 

Yes, it's odd language, but it's the proper language.  It's not a cut, as no scalpel is used.  It's a revision.  Took me awhile too, I totally get it.

 

Congrats.  Dh and I were totally anti procedure.  It took me seeing results to come around.  He took longer cause he's not in the clinic, ya know?  He's sold now.  It was a long drive, it was stressful, but it was worth it.  I do, however, understand the significance of a civil discussion.  Yay.

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