Tell me about your reactions (positive & negative) to B12 as methylcobalamin and folic acid as...

[menomena]

I gave Lily 500mcg of B12 spray - as methylcobalamin and 500mcg of Thorne's 5-MTHF. We took them after breakfast around 8/8:30. We were already having a bit of a weepy day (i got talked into whole scrambled eggs for breakfast, I was tired and didn't want to fight. She does okay on the yolks but is a weepy, shouting mess on the whites). But, by 3p she had a rager of a tantrum in Kohl's about a stuffy. She did all the classic kid tantrum stuff (mind you, she's 5 and was acting like a 3yo, but whatever, still in the realm of "normal" kid stuff) and then she went into the "I want to die", "I want to be hurt", "Leave me alone/you're hurting me/I can't breath" stuff. Didn't want to go home because home was "scary". Wouldn't walk, but flipped out if I tried to carry her. We finally resolved it and she was sobbing and hugging me and really felt bad. I think it wouldn't have carried on for so long, but I had three strangers come up and either try to talk to her or try to "help" me, despite me trying to politely refuse and get them to leave quickly, it still set us back whatever progress I'd made in calming her down. I mean, I know she hates Kohl's but we literally had a 10 minute exchange to make and it took us an hour to get out of there. I got her away from the checkout lane pretty quickly, but we sat in the bench in between the outer and inner doors and I let her just have it out for awhile. 

Anyway, is it possibly a reaction to the B12 & folate? I know they are both in methyl forms. I thought those were the most easily used, so I got those. Now I'm remembering something about people having issues with methyl forms...? If it helps, she's pretty sensitive to sulfur (hence the reaction with the egg whites but not yolks). Can't have garlic or onions either. We do eat sulfur veggies, but those seem to be okay. Not sure if that's a different "form" or if since she's not really absorbing her food very well, maybe she's not getting an excess of sulfur from them. Interesting, though, she can tolerate epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) baths just fine. They might spin her up for a few minutes, but then she's great, happy and calm. 

[For the record, both Aevryn and I took the same dose this morning at the same time, and we were totally fine. I dare say, I actually felt really good today, until Lily sucked all the emotional energy out of me over her 40 minute, hysterical, and very public tantrum.]

Does anyone have any thoughts or insight? Any directions for me to research? Thanks! 

[menomena]

Well, for any lurkers hoping to see what others had to say, I will answer my own questions...

It appears, after some more focused research once kids were sleeping, that it may have something to do with dosage. I basically kickstarted her impaired methylation cycle and she's detoxing like gonzo. So, the consensus seems to be to start with a much lower dose on the folate (100-200mcg) and work up to a therapeutic dose (800mcg+). Hopefully that will help us today. 

[menomena]

Further update: 

Today, I gave her the 500mcg B12 but dropped the folate down to 250mcg. Amazing difference. Low & slow is the lesson, yet again. Always nice to have a reminder. ;) 

[Theloose]

Yeah, it sounds like you OD'd on methyl groups.  Have you looked at heartfixer lately?  He says too many methyl groups (overmethylating) can result in mood swings.

Are you doing Mo for the sulfur stuff?  Not handling sulfur foods but doing good with epsom salts sounds like a sulfoxidation backlog.

[DevaMajka]

Good to know! I'm starting b12 for both ds's, and myself. The last thing I need is detox reactions to mess me up. lol

[Theloose]

And huh... Dd had some bad detox-type reactions to hydroxy b12, but methyl b12 doesn't do the same thing to her at all.  The bad reaction was being extra intense the day of (totally within normal) then the next day, a screaming, crying mess.  She'd start shrieking with *no* trigger followed by out of control crying.  A day or two of that, followed by some awesome cognitive leaps like finally listening to me when i talk about food having important nutrients, and saying hi and smiling at the neighbors.  Before b12 drops, her reaction to both was screaming and running away, like her life depended on it.

[menomena]

Yes, definitely on the Mo! 

I remembered what you said about your DD, Shannon. Glad to hear you're making strides on any level. We had a great day today, so I'm thankful for that, for whatever reason. 

Not sure about the difference between hydroxy & methyl causing detox reactions, though. I know that some people lack the enzyme or co-factors or something to convert the cobalamin into methylcobalamin (which is the "active" form). I figured that was us, because we've been supping "regular" B12 (sublingual, though) off and on for literally years. Finally, I started the MB12 a month or two ago and it seemed to really help with energy & mood. I think it was adding the methyltetrahydrofolate that really kicked us over the edge into real progress. 

[tanyalynn]

We did hydroxy B12 for years, I think it was helping in a general sense but it didn't cause any big, immediate changes.  I say I think it was helping, though, cause after I'd been taking it a long time and I ran low and stopped taking it myself, and just gave it to the kids for a month, my enviro allergies started really kicking up w/o any change in exposure, and once I twigged to it and went out and bought some B12 (that was methyl, the only thing I can find locally) w/i 2 days I was much, much improved.

So, we switched to methyl B12 over the summer, and DS (4yo) had some extra energy, hyperactive stuff from it.  Not huge, but noticeable.  He doesn't tend to have emotional reactions--I mean, a few times I've seen low-level stuff, I forgot what I did once and he was a bit weepy and clingy and that was strange for him, but DD is much more emotionally volatile than he is.  I started him on 1 mg sublingual per day for the methyl B12, worked up to 3/day, experimented with more but I don't think we need it, now we're at 2-3 mg, divided into 1mg doses.  He'd been getting folic acid (which I *think* we convert ok) and some folate for a few years beforehand.  We seem to do really well with extra methyl groups, I know not everyone does but wowzers, I am happy with our methyl donor supps. 

If you think you kick-started her methylation, which sounds reasonable, consider supportive supps that can help deal with what's circulating via different pathways.  Mag, vitC, don't know how your kids are on zinc but it's one of our (me and my kids, I mean) weaknesses.  Epsom salt baths should help too. 

[menomena]

That's the thing, Tanya. We've been supping zinc, Mag citrate, Vit C, & P5P (B6) for a LONG time now. LONG. So I suppose was surprised that we need more than what we're already getting. 

Dosage-wise, I've been giving Lily, ~35-40lbs, fluctuating: 

- 10mg zinc in the morning

- 1g C, up to two times a day

- 10mg B6 in form of P5P

- 500mcg Mo 

- 400-800mg Mag, divided into at least 2 doses over the day. 

- 1/2 tsp Cod Liver Oil (A&D vits)

- 1mg K drops

- 2000IU D drops

- vinegar-soaked bone broth daily

- sauerkraut daily

And then we just added the 500mcg B12 spray & the 250mcg folate. 

[eireann]

I, as an adult, couldn't tolerate long term b12 supplementation, in methyl or hydroxy form, so I imagine a child might have some issues too. It made my entire system go haywire after a while. I had the worst anxiety, and I'm not prone to it. I also had a lot of issues like cystic acne (never had that) and neuropathy in areas of my body. I also had insomnia like nobodys business, and massive body aches. As soon as I quit all supps, magically my issues subsided.

I think there comes a point where our bodies no longer need the level we are giving, and when we continue and add supplement after supplement like mag, iron, zinc, etc etc etc, it can exacerbate an issue to a massive degree.