Horrid Scene - I feel awful

[dovey]

I don't know how to help my daughter process what happened last night.  I don't even know how to figure it out myself.

My daughter is 4.  She's an artist.  She probably uses about 5-10 sheets of paper each day.  I'm fine with that.  It's paper well used in my opinion.  The problem is, we can't keep all of the things that she draws.  We would have to keep hundreds of papers each month.  I try to keep the special ones, and ask her to do the same.  We have a "save box" where she puts things she wants to keep.  That being said, she has a very hard time letting go of anything. She just wants to save it all.  So my partner and I get rid of some of the pages when she's not watching. 

We heat the house with wood, so, as you may imagine, some of her artwork ends up in the stove to start fires.  We don't let her see us doing this.  Last night, my partner had taken a few pages from the desk in the office and had torn them up to start the fire.  My daughter got wind of what might be happening and she wanted to see what it was that he had in his hands.  I tried to distract her so that she wouldn't see and I told her that he was burning some other scrap paper.  She exploded and started screaming horrible screams.  I held her back by her wrists because it seemed like she was going to attack him, and he was lighting a fire at the time, in front of the stove.  She then bit me, hard.  I don't know why, but the pain gave me a terrible reaction.  I ripped her away from me by her arm and left scratches in her skin.  I then took her into the office and told her that I wouldn't have a child who bit me and I that she had to sit on the bed until I told her to come out.  By this time, she had blood all over her (mine, from the bite), and she was crying hysterically and scared.  I went and cleaned up the bite with peroxide and calmed down a little bit.  Then I sat her down on my lap in the bathroom and cleaned her up and talked to her about what happened.  I told her that biting was unacceptable, even if she was really mad, and I apologized for scratching her and getting so angry at her.  I told her that I reacted the wrong way to the situation too.

I felt terrible though.  I wish I hadn't reacted the way I did, but I feel like the pain made me forget all parenting skills.  I thought I was doing okay in terms of discipline, but the things that happened last night make me realize that I can't always control my reactions to a situation.  I would never have ordinarily said what I said to her.  Of course I'd have a child who bites me.  I do!  I think she is freaked out too, and I don't think she understands that I ripped her away like that because I was in pain.  She seems to view the situation as she hurt me, so I hurt her on purpose.  My older son saw the whole thing too, and he was terrified.  What should I tell them?  We try to be very gentle in our house, so this situation was really out of the blue.   

[dalia]

Well, if she bit you so hard that you had blood on the both of you then I kinda think you had a normal human reaction! You're not superhuman, you know? No one can really say how their gonna react to something like that.. don't beat yourself up..

I think the bigger issue is that she felt you were violating her trust by not telling her the truth about the artwork. That being said I have no idea how you would go about it but it seems like you just need to be honest with her and apologize for that part of it as well.

[major_mama11]

My mom was a very gentle mom, but like any mom, she wasn't perfect, and I remember a scene when she smacked me after reaching her wit's end with my misbehaving. A few minutes later, she came to my room and apologized. The part that has always stuck with me is the fact that she apologized to me, rather than the part where she lost control. I think you did a good job given the situation. I lose control sometimes, and then I apologize and try to learn from it and do better next time. DD (5) is getting old enough now that she apologizes too, now that she is getting the ability to realize her own part in situations.

My DD is constantly drawing too. Our solution has been to use a magnadoodle for a lot of her drawings, and then if it's one she wants a record of, we take a picture of it before she erases it.

[NellieKatz]

I am an artist. My son (7) is an artist and he is prolific. The drawings are everywhere! He has a sketch pad in the bathroom (his "studio") and one in the car, and we have loose leaf drawings in boxes all over the place. I can identify with your problem, as my son never wants to get rid of anything and yet I don't want to be sneaky and get rid of stuff without him knowing. Because it would be a violation of trust. It's funny, when I read your post I kept waiting for you to get to the part about how you violated her trust but it really didn't happen. You seemed to be focused on your reaction and those of your daughter. Let me tell you, if I saw somebody putting my artwork into the fireplace, my reaction would be over the top too.

In my opinion it is you who should apologize to her for THAT. And the biting (clearly an over-the-top reaction borne of intense emotion) can be dealt with separately. You can talk to your kids about why you don't accept violent behavior in your house, because look what happens when somebody starts it by hurting another person....others can get hurt too, and it's scary, and all the rest. And then talk about how it's better to use words. But seriously, I think it will fall on deaf ears until you meet her where SHE is on this art/trust thing.

If you think that she is unreasonable about wanting to keep the art and you're going to take a hard line on throwing stuff out, then you need to tell her up front. "Honey, I WILL be throwing out the art that isn't as special to you as all the rest. But I can promise to take a photo of it before I do." That way, even though she will be upset, she has a warning. And maybe she can sort the drawings into those that will be kept, and those that will be photographed.

Art is so personal and it means so much to the artist. She must have been devastated. I just looked back and saw that her age is 4. She is pretty young, still. Can't you also consider holding onto the art a little longer until she's older and better able to be involved in the problem solving?

[swisscanmom]

I think you are human and reacted in a human way.

That said I would try to find other solutions for the artwork.

My dd is also an artist, we have a door that we put up her favourite artwork on for a few weeks, when she makes a new favourite one we take one down and replace it with something new. Whatever we take down gets recycled, and whatever she decides not to put up gets recycled, too. She is absolutely fine with that. She gets to choose what stays up and how long, but the space on the door is limited, so she does have to choose at some point.

[dakotablue]

I'm sorry ((Hug))

No advice cause I'm not there yet...

But I will offer if you are ever bitten again push into the bite (which is counter intuitive) This will force the jaw to open more and you can roll your arm out rather than allowing the teeth to tear at the skin as you remove your arm. This is just coming from someone who would be bit for a living...

I hope and don't think she will bite again. You reaction sounds...well spot on human and natural consequences. (though in and ideal world we'd all be super mom)

[cappuccinosmom]

er.  I think you had an absolutely normal mental and physiological reaction to being chomped on.  You don't need to apologize for that.

You also don't need to apologize for having angry feelings.  You're OK with *her* having angry feelings? Yes?  Just not her acting out.

IMO, what needs to be addressed is her feeling of "need" for all those papers, and your reaction to it by dealing with the papers sneakily.  I think you need to find a way to help her with her feelings, and to help you keep the clutter to a minimum, in a way that is not "hiding" and sneaking, but upfront and honest.  In my experience, usually when something was hard for me to deal with, and I put it off or tried to avoid it, it tends to become something like these crazy blowups, which are even worse.

Either you need to find a storage solution (plastic bins??)  or you need to address the keeping problem in an upfront way.  For me, that would be something along the lines of "I know you don't want to lose any of your work, but we cannot keep it all.  So, we are going to work together so that you can keep your most special ones, but the rest can go to recycling, to make more paper, so that you have more to draw new things on.  So, of all the papers we have now, you will fill up this one bin with the ones most special to you, and then we will package the rest up and you can help me take them to the recycling drop-off".

Alternatively...could she get into a drawing/paint program on the computer?  She might be a little less clingy about jpgs, and even if she does want to hold on to them, every couple of months you can burn them onto CDR or even just put them on a flash drive, and when she gets older let her decide if she wants to dump the files or not. 

[Pookietooth]

Yes, I was going to post too that the horrid scene in my mind had already started when she saw her artwork being burned. I am no artist, but I would not do that with ds's work (he has though, when he was angry). You need to find another solution that involves her agreement.

[Bebe's Mom]

As to the saving of artwork, if you have a computer and a scanner, you could scan the artwork and save it to a flash drive. Then she could always have it....

[mamazee]

For the artwork, we have a bin, but what I do is keep a little pile of her art in a basket, and tehn when the basket gets full, I say, "Pick 5 of these to go in the art bin" and then we recycle the rest.

You can't help reacting strongly when bitten to the point of bleeding, so I wouldn't worry too much about what you should have done.  That's not a situation that you really can control.  The best thing to do is apologize, which you did.  The one thing though is that I don't know how I feel about the language, "I won't have a child who bites" as you do have a child who bites as she just bit you, and she knows she just bit you, so that language could make her feel insecure.

Edited to add re the language: kids are very literal, and it can be hard to remember that in the moment, and I know you mean that you won't allow her to bite you, but she might take the words extremely literally.

[heartmama]

I agree with others that you don't owe the apology for getting upset that she bit you- if someone bites hard enough to draw blood the person gets upset! It would send the wrong message if you faked like that didn't hurt.

The whole issue to apologize over is the original one where you tried to hide the burning of the artwork. Clearly your daughter found that abnormally distressing (in the sense that she doesn't normally bite, right??). I would be up front about how you dispose of artwork and involve her in the solution. I like the idea of having her use a magnadoodle or dry erase board for some art, photograph it, and then let her erase it and start over.

Every once in a rare while these awful scenes happen. They just do. It IS upsetting. I know what you mean. You feel like your happy family life was momentarily fractured. Usually it is when a child does a thing totally unexpected. You momentarily forget your parenting goals and just react. My son once kicked me in the face during a diaper change at 3 years old and I slapped his leg away--HARD--without even thinking. I didn't even register it was his leg. It was a reaction to having a leg swing straight into my eye! In that instance ds just laughed.

Another time on a LONG car trip at age 4 ds threw the mother of all temper tantrums on the interstate. It was totally unlike him! He was screaming and throwing things from his carseat. We spoke to him very harshly, because we were scared! It was so upsetting we pulled over to a rest stop and had to get out and sit on the curb. I remember thinking "What on earth just happened here??".

((hug)) I doubt this will happen again for a long time!

[milkybean]

Being bitten is a horrible awful searingly painful feeling.  It's understandable that you flipped out while being bitten. 

Before we figured out that it was corn syrup based products causing it, my son would fly into horrible rages, and I got bit a couple times, once on the upper shoulder blade area....probably the worst physical feeling that I've experienced in my life, and it caused a massive emotional storm as well.
 

Originally Posted by Bebe's Mom 

As to the saving of artwork, if you have a computer and a scanner, you could scan the artwork and save it to a flash drive. Then she could always have it....

Agreed.  And then you can make photobooks on sites like shutterfly and snapfish, of her favorites.  :)

By the way, with my son we established that if it doesn't have a date on it, it won't be saved.  That hasn't kept him from not dating things, but when he catches me recycling his artwork, I can remind him that it doesn't have a date on it (and then I usually pull that item out).  Doesn't solve the overall problem (we don't have a scanner) but it helps lessen the situation.

So I'd work out a better solution, and include her in the conversation.  I can imagine the feeling she must have had, that something she made was being *burned*.  Can't have been pretty for her. 

And then talk about the biting and how devastatingly painful it was for you, and that you're sorry you accidentally hurt her while trying to get her off of you. 

[a-sorta-fairytale]

DD will draw 30 drawings and notes and other things a day.  She has a space on her wall for about 20 drawings.  That is what she can keep.  If she wants to keep a new one she has to replace an old one.  She is very involved in our recycling and understands why we have to do this.  She also does not like bugs and has read about them hiding out in piles of paper so that cuts down on that behavior also. 

[ecoteat]

I totally understand using drawn on paper to start a fire when she's not looking. I do that too. I know dd doesn't remember every sketch she draws. She makes it pretty clear when something is of particular importance, and we set those aside (so that they can be forgotten about in a week instead of an hour like the other ones!).

I would have reacted like that to being bitten too, and I think you handled that as well as could be expected! I agree with the others that it sounds like your family needs to come up with a plan for managing all those papers that everyone feels good about. I like the idea of a limited display space--if something new goes on it, something old has to come down. We try to do that with toys and clothes, so it makes sense to use that kind of plan here too.

[Petie1104]

I'm going to come at this from a different angle, let's look at the good news....

GOOD NEWS!!  She won't be scarred for life by your reaction to biting.  She will probably remember it, but not in that "mommy hurt me" kind of way, but more as a, "WOW biting makes mommy MAD" way.  Which, by the way, is GOOD.  You want her to know that biting people will upset them. 

Good news is you now know how important her art is to her. So, now you can come up with alternative way for dealing with it.  If you feel it still needs to be burned, wait til after she goes to bed, but honestly, with this reaction, try to find another solution.

Good news, this opens up a good conversation for ds.  It allows you to discuss with him how scary that was and why he thinks it happened and let him in on the conversation.  Amazingly, I have found that older siblings often have wonderful ideas about dealing with younger ones.  He may have a suggestion about the artwork.

Good news is that dd and you can now open up a dialogue about how to appropriately and inappropriately handle overwhelmind emotions.  You can start working with her on recognizing her triggers and how to handle those. "Honey, I know I upset you, and you are allowed to be upset with me.  You bit mommy, you are not allowed to bite mommy.  Next time you get upset, how can you react that will let mommy know how upset you are but won't be something that will hurt mommy."  Brainstorm with her and offer alternatives, "you can say MOMMY I'M MAD!!"  "You can go to your room and say LEAVE ME ALONE I'M MAD" "You can make a really mean mad face" etc etc.  Whatever works for your house.  DD chose to go outside and pull out grass.  I don't know why, but it helped her.  OOOH, reminds me, she has no grass to pull at this new house, I may need to revisit the issue and find another solution.

Look at this as a learning experience for everyone involved.  Even ds.  If you include him he won't feel out of control in the situation, and as I stated earlier, older sibs tend to have really good ideas.  I think it's something about the fact that they can still REALLY remember what it felt like at that age. 
 

[honeybunmom]

We've had some bad scenes in our house and we have apologized for losing our temper.  I have tried to make the distinction between apologizing for doing something I should not have and being clear that I am not apologizing for parenting her appropriately.  Our daughter is 5.  And quite the prolific artist as well.  We don't have a problem getting rid of it although she has recently scolded me for using her brother's (he's 21 mos) paintings for shipping labels, but, I think I know where that is coming from.  Which brings me to what sticks out from your post for me: your daughter's seemingly visceral need keep everything and intense reaction to seeing it being destroyed.  I notice that you wrote "my daughter" and "my partner".  Is your daughter your partner's child?  If not, might she have some issues around permanency?  I ask this as a child of divorce whose parents separated when I was between 4 and 5.

And FWIW, I'm sure I would have a similar reaction to being bitten.  Having been bitten while breastfeeding, I did scream out in pain and push my child away.  And that was without the skin being broken and bleeding as a result.

[Jessie123]

Just wanted to offer a suggestion to the artwork dilemma... either scan or photograph each piece of artwork.  Then allow her to 'scrapbook' all of her artwork - it gives her another creative outlet and lets her keep all of her masterpieces.  We do this for all of our DS's artwork or drawings and it saves a lotof grief over what should be saved and what shouldn't.  It also means you can toss a lot of the original papers, since you'll have copies in the computer for her to see.

[ilovemygirl]

My dd who is almost 4 y/o does a lot of artwork too. Waaaaaaay too much to save. We go through her pile occasionally with her and have her decide which ones are special for her (usually anything with cats) and which ones we will give to people we love. We give those to her grandparents, aunts and cousins. Most relatives are really excited to get stuff from her, especially older ones. If you have no one in your area to give them too you could mail them or I know it's not nice but you could pretend to mail them. I feel awful about it but there's been a few times that I couldn't wait to get rid of the pile and/or we had already just given away a bunch and I've thrown the pile away but was really careful to bag it and bring it out of the house right away so she could never know. 

As far as the scene goes, I know it scared them but it was an instinctual reaction that couldn't be helped. I think you've already done all you can do by explaining and apologizing. Don't beat yourself up over it. 

[ananas]

Yes, this. I can imagine that I would be very traumatized if I saw someone burning my artwork, now or as a child. Burning is so final, so complete, and I think even at 4, she understood that. Do you have a scanner? Would it be possible for you to get one? 
 

Originally Posted by Pookietooth 

Yes, I was going to post too that the horrid scene in my mind had already started when she saw her artwork being burned. I am no artist, but I would not do that with ds's work (he has though, when he was angry). You need to find another solution that involves her agreement.

[D_McG]

Do your kids really expect you to save every single thing they draw?  I think that's unrealistic.  My kids don't expect that.  

Originally Posted by ananas 

Yes, this. I can imagine that I would be very traumatized if I saw someone burning my artwork, now or as a child. Burning is so final, so complete, and I think even at 4, she understood that. Do you have a scanner? Would it be possible for you to get one? 
 

Originally Posted by Pookietooth 

Yes, I was going to post too that the horrid scene in my mind had already started when she saw her artwork being burned. I am no artist, but I would not do that with ds's work (he has though, when he was angry). You need to find another solution that involves her agreement.