Would you be bothered by this in a karate class?

[chaoticzenmom]

My 5yo wants to be a ninja...naturally, we signed him up for Karate to facilitate these goals;)  He waits, every day asking "does my class start today?"  Finally, it's class day and I'm really bothered by the class.  I should preface this with "I love Alfie Kohn and I am a relaxed homeschooler." 

Class starts with all of the parents being lined up in FRONT of the children, not even inconspicuously...I can handle this, my 5yo is only slightly uncomfortable but happy to be there.  Then, for about 15 minutes, the teacher talks to the parents (facing away from the impatient children) about what the children will learn (ok, it's the first class, some of this is to be expected.)  Kids are sitting down waiting during this time.  I see my son's disappointed face asking "how long 'til we get started?"  During the class, she constantly talked to the parents.  She made the kids bow to us a few times and asked us to clap for them repeatedly and then told us how important it is in our everyday parenting to tell our kids that they're doing a "good job" often.  I wanted to ask "Is this class for the kids or for the parents."  But I kept my mouth shut. 

Ok, that's it.  I'm completely irritated..would you be or am I being nitpicky? 

[oaktreemama]

I would be annoyed. But, I also know that realistically many, many people believe that lots of "good jobs" means something to kids. That it is a positive thing.

My son's PT uses "good job" and "you are such a big boy!!" I do cringe inside but offer my own comments like, "wow you threw that ball really far!!" Hopefully that offsets the inane praise.

I don't really get the emphasis on the parents either. I mean I assume your little boy isn't going to have to bow for his dinner. I have certainly seen some hyper parenting though-this whole idea of my kid better have a black belt for the money I am paying. I wonder if she was trying to set expectations? 

If the second class wasn't much more focused on actual karate I would look around for something else.

[leighi123]

Sounds kinda weird.   Ds starts Tia kwon do next month, which sounds really cool b/c it includes safety lessons.   His gymnastics class parents watch through 1 way mirrors, but the martial arts we are in the room, so I wonder how that all works.  

Hopefully it was just because it was the first class.   I would go to the next class and see what its like before deciding.  Did you pay for a set amount of time?  We pay monthly, so if ds doesnt like it after a month (4 classes) we arent commited and farther than that. 

The "good job" thing, I weaned myself off that a while ago and it does bug me when people say it, but for an hour a week I wouldnt worry about it so much.  

[serenbat]

common (at least in my area)

depends on the teacher

my DD took kung fu (nothing like this from her teacher) but the class before (karate) was exactly like this and more!

so best is to ask prior to signing up for the class and ask around- many are very into respect (parent and teacher) and is very much a part of the program, some even have to show report cards to the teacher

[laneysprout]

It would also bother me, but I agree that it's common and a reflection of mainstream obsession with praise, discipline, etc.

[Linda on the move]

It seems goofy to me, but I would for a few times before making a judgment. Often, the first session of a class doesn't tell you what a regular class is like. How many weeks did you pay for up front? Are there other options for a similar class in your area?

[The4OfUs]

That description is totally unlike the dojo our kids go to; the one we send them to is very traditional/old school.  Parents are cordoned off with velvet ropes in the back of the room in a seating area, and are only acknowledged when they show us forms about midway through each kid session, and at the end of each sesssion at the moving up ceremonies.  It would drive me up a wall if:

1) the instructor kept addressing me instead of interacting with the students 

and

2) the instructor gave me parenting advice.

Bleh - maybe it was just a first class thing and it will get better.  Good luck!

[chiefmir]

some of it is probably the teacher's individual style (i.e. talking to the parents so much, giving parenting advice, etc.) but a lot of what you said is typical of many marital arts schools.  I'm a 2nd degree back belt (tae kwon do and tang soo do) and I've taken classes in about 5 schools in 4 states over the last 10 years. Also, I recently (3 months ago!) became the mother of a 5 year old who wanted to take tae kwon do classes... so I've seen the classes from many angels.

Typically, kids are expected to be very attentive and patient (hence the long wait before actually getting started would not be that odd)... although they are not supposed to be "good" at this in the beginning, the idea of it is instilled and encouraged early.  For example, as the classes go on (if a child stays with the art) they may have to sit through periods of time while other belts do something they are not ready for yet, or wait to take their turn during a sparring class.  Also, some teachers/schools get much more involved in the children's out-of-martial-arts-class lives than others.  The school I'm at currently does/says nothing about things that are not actually a part of the class.  But I've been at others where the teacher requires the kids to bring "reports" (a check list of desired behavior over time) from both parents and teachers before promoting the student to the next belt when they are ready.  Their rationale was that being a "martial artist" isnt' just about technical skill in the classes, but about developing a sense of self-control, respect, and motivation that theoretically should be evident in other areas of the kids' lives.  Not saying if this is "right" or "wrong" but just that I've seen things done differently in different places... and that the way that a particular instructor in a particular school runs their class may not be a good fit, but there may be one out there that comes closer.

That said, I think that it would be pretty rare to find many martial arts schools that are going to line up closely with Alfie Cohen and/or relaxed home schooling.  The "tone" (cant' think of a better word but its not exactly what I"m reaching for) of most real martial arts schools is very structured, very respectful (as in bowing frequently, calling higher belts "sir" or "ma'am") and feed back is very specific (like, "good job" meaning your kick looked right or detailed in describing what was wrong about it so that you can correct it).  Unlike many other things, Martial Arts DOES have a "right and wrong" way that the moves are supposed to be done...and although we all just do it to the best of our abilities (at 37 I'm looking nothing like the younger people anymore, and at 5 my daughter is just basically learning how to move her body around and hasn't gotten a single technique nailed down yet) but getting "better and better" is a person's own aspirational goal, presumably, so the feedback/correction keeps coming.

I hope that wasn't too much of a response!  I hope that your son enjoys this class, or that you guys are able to find a teacher/style that is a good match!

[The4OfUs]

I didn't really address the good job part above in my first response other than it being instructed to me as a parent.  I'm not a good jobber at home, but when we're out in a class, it doesn't bother me at all.  The kids are performing something, a skill, and the instructors are praising their efforts at the skills. 

The instructors at the place our kids go are very positive and encouraging and give the kids high fives and thumbs up and celebrate with them, none of it seems fake or forced or phoned in at all.  They all genuinely seem to love being there with the kids and seeing the kids progress. 

As far as waiting and being patient and respectful, absolutely here.  Even in their "little kid" program they offer for 4-7 yos, the kids are expected to always be ready and paying attention (obviously in the beginning they don't and the correction is gentle but firm - but the expectation is there and by the end they're all really good!) and standing still waiting for instruction, or standing/sitting calmly and respectfully waiting to take their turn in groups.  Nobody is going off separately or doing their own thing.  They have an insane student-teacher ratio, averaging about 10 black/brown belt adults for about 20 kids in the session, and a few older kids there helping out too...it's just a great program.

As far as non karate life teaching, the instructor talks to the kids about how the martial arts ideals carry over into real life, but that's all, they don't require us to grade the kids on anything. 

[chaoticzenmom]

Thanks for sharing your experiences.  I've paid up 12 weeks, so we'll see how it goes in the future.  My son seemed to love it, even if I didn't.  I'll probably still look around to see what else is out there.  Interesting that it's not that unusual...the report cards thing would really freak me out!  I guess I should consider us lucky. 

[sapphire_chan]

I'd look for another class. I've never heard of a martial arts class making ANYTHING be about performing for the parents. The ones for kids I've heard about will talk about duty to one's parents and the importance of self-discipline and working to fulfill obligations (such as doing homework for school).

And you bow out of respect not because you want a "good job" it is actually unbelievably disrespectful to every martial art and every practitioner of martial arts to have kids bow for the sake of applause.

[Lakeeffectsnow]

All four of my older kiddos have done some form of martial arts (akido, taekwondo, karate) through several dojos in a few different states.  I've never seen that.  Some instructors will ask the kids to bow to the parents out of respect at the end of class, but that is about it.  My kiddos are there to learn martial arts. I'm not interested in a lecture on parenting.  A little pep talk to the parents during belt tests or belt ceremony is all well and good.  I enjoy my time in the spectator section, that is when I read, nursing the baby and catch up with the other moms.

Ravi

[Tigerchild]

I have listened to a lot of martial arts friends complain about the attitude/expectations of some parents of the kids in their class (only takes one or two to be a real thorn in the side), moaning and fussing for parental explanations, attention, blah blah blah.

So I dunno, it sounds like this class (at least the first one) is being conducted that way due to parental pressure (at least, from what I hear complaints about!).  If you are a small business owner, I could see it only taking a few extremely nasty high maintenance people to make you adjust things a bit at least for the first class. Not sure if I could respect a school that caved that much, though.  Or I'd be really really worried about the parent population if that kind of thing was necessary on a regular basis, ick.

[chaoticzenmom]

Originally Posted by chiefmir 

That said, I think that it would be pretty rare to find many martial arts schools that are going to line up closely with Alfie Cohen and/or relaxed home schooling.

I think this is going to be a problem with me anywhere we go.  Good point.  

I should correct one thing...the kids weren't bowing for applause.  We were just told to applause several times for when the children did something that the instructors thought was applause-worthy.  From what I'm hearing her and from my IRL friends, they only feel like an audience when someone is going for a belt, not on a regular basis.  Maybe it's because these kids are so young.  Time will tell I guess.

I can also see how maybe there are some high-maintenance parents who probably got this whole extended explanation thing going.  I can't imagine any other reason for talking to us for that long.  I do live in a "high maintenance Parent" area which is often a good thing...not so much in karate class I guess...or baseball, I hear.

[StephandOwen]

That is not at all how my ds's Tae Kwan Do class is. Even on the first class we sent ds in by himself. The parents are invited to stay in the little waiting area (which has a window to look into the area that the kids/adults are practicing). We can either talk to the teacher after class or we can schedule a time to come in when there are no classes. DH just signed up for the class too so he and ds will be practicing at the same time (the class ds is in is *very* small- it is him and usually another father/son pair. There are at least 2 teachers so usually it's a one-on-one between ds and his teacher).

The only time parents come in to watch are during belt testing (ds just did belt testing yesterday and moved up to yellow belt).

As for the respect- a huge part of what they teach Owen is not only respect for elders, but respect for himself. They stress the importance of loving and respecting yourself. DS's teacher praises ds a lot- but only when he deserves it.

[Owen'nZoe]

Originally Posted by chiefmir 

some of it is probably the teacher's individual style (i.e. talking to the parents so much, giving parenting advice, etc.) but a lot of what you said is typical of many marital arts schools.  I'm a 2nd degree back belt (tae kwon do and tang soo do) and I've taken classes in about 5 schools in 4 states over the last 10 years. Also, I recently (3 months ago!) became the mother of a 5 year old who wanted to take tae kwon do classes... so I've seen the classes from many angels.

Typically, kids are expected to be very attentive and patient (hence the long wait before actually getting started would not be that odd)... although they are not supposed to be "good" at this in the beginning, the idea of it is instilled and encouraged early.  For example, as the classes go on (if a child stays with the art) they may have to sit through periods of time while other belts do something they are not ready for yet, or wait to take their turn during a sparring class.  Also, some teachers/schools get much more involved in the children's out-of-martial-arts-class lives than others.  The school I'm at currently does/says nothing about things that are not actually a part of the class.  But I've been at others where the teacher requires the kids to bring "reports" (a check list of desired behavior over time) from both parents and teachers before promoting the student to the next belt when they are ready.  Their rationale was that being a "martial artist" isnt' just about technical skill in the classes, but about developing a sense of self-control, respect, and motivation that theoretically should be evident in other areas of the kids' lives.  Not saying if this is "right" or "wrong" but just that I've seen things done differently in different places... and that the way that a particular instructor in a particular school runs their class may not be a good fit, but there may be one out there that comes closer.

That said, I think that it would be pretty rare to find many martial arts schools that are going to line up closely with Alfie Cohen and/or relaxed home schooling.  The "tone" (cant' think of a better word but its not exactly what I"m reaching for) of most real martial arts schools is very structured, very respectful (as in bowing frequently, calling higher belts "sir" or "ma'am") and feed back is very specific (like, "good job" meaning your kick looked right or detailed in describing what was wrong about it so that you can correct it).  Unlike many other things, Martial Arts DOES have a "right and wrong" way that the moves are supposed to be done...and although we all just do it to the best of our abilities (at 37 I'm looking nothing like the younger people anymore, and at 5 my daughter is just basically learning how to move her body around and hasn't gotten a single technique nailed down yet) but getting "better and better" is a person's own aspirational goal, presumably, so the feedback/correction keeps coming.

I hope that wasn't too much of a response!  I hope that your son enjoys this class, or that you guys are able to find a teacher/style that is a good match!

This has been right on with our experience at our American-style school. I just wanted to reiterate that if you don't like it after a few weeks, give another school a shot. My son has been at 2 different schools, and they feel very, very different.

[AllyRae]

This is really so not normal for my children's Tang Soo Do classes.  Our classes are in a YMCA and parents can sit and watch right next to the mats.  But, we are told not to interact with the class or teachers at all during the class, and the kids are to pretend that the parents aren't there (all of the parents sit in the mats behind the class, so for the most part, their backs are turned to us.  It's not a social occassion (and many of the parents of the children also are involved in Tang Soo Do--we have our class right after the children's class, and then on Saturday we have a parent/child class.  Our instructors are also friends of ours, as well as a couple of the other parent/child couples and we attend social events with them...we have to keep it strictly respectful in class though and it's always "Mr. _____ and Mrs. _____" on the mats, and then we're all on a first name basis off the mats.

But in no way, shape, or form can we interrupt class or act like friends during class.  That's time for the parents to back off and be quiet, and the children to learn.  Even at testing, there is no applause until the very end with board breaking and belt promotions.

[HollyBearsMom]

Did you not attend/observe a few classes first? My son has been taking TKD since about 3.5/4 and we did a lot of research first since there are so many different types of martial arts training. There are many schools out there whose main goal is make as much money they can per kid, knowing that most kids will only cycle in for a year or two. But there are just as many who are in it truly in it for the love of the sport and in turn make a good living teaching. We are lucky to have a great dojang run by a young family.

Some school focus strictly on the training and others focus on the "whole child" believing that a child's outside life is directly tied to the art and visa versa (is that how you spell that? LOL). Being respectful at home/school, getting good grades, doing chores, eating well etc are rewarded in class. 

If you have only attended one class you should still be eligible to back out of the contract.  If you don't like what you see and your child doesn't love it I would get out now and start shopping around.  Every place we tried out allowed us to try them out for a week at no cost.

[dalia]

That would drive me NUTS! But what can you do? Your ds loves the class, is asking about it all the time... I think what effects kids most is what is done at home. For me, I just have to trust that my ds has a strong foundation to combat against the way the rest of society feels he should act/be treated. Sounds like you definitely have that. But man that would irk me!

[DidiToo]

That would irritate me.  I see my son's activities as being for him, not for me.  I'd accompany him when he was younger, but now I like him to have activities that are his own.