Spin off of Chinese mother thread (sort of): How do you encourage a child to attain 'mastery' in...

[Cascadian]

*

Edited by Cascadian - 6/2/11 at 7:57pm

[MusicianDad]

We don't push, though we do encourage our kids to pursue what they enjoy to the fullest extent that they can. Mastery tends to be the end product of that. Just forcing someone to practice when it's not something they love will result in them being fairly good at it, but no where near mastery of it.

[Cascadian]

Is true mastery reserved for the savants and the obsessed?

[UnschoolnMa]

I absolutely do not push. I encourage for mastery to the point of personal satisfaction.

 We are unschoolers, radical even most would say. No mandatory lessons, schedules were flowing and changing, no mandatory bedtimes or meals, no required lessons or activities, no limited media, etc.

I encourage my kids (now older teens/young adults) to strive to master their own "stuff" for their own purposes. What do they want? What do they need? What's the difference?  Why do they want or need it? What will help them accomplish those things? Where might we find the resources? How do they know or judge when they've reached a satisfactory level of accomplishment? What role does the opinion of others play for them?

 All things I ask myself too!

[MusicianDad]

Originally Posted by Cascadian 

Is true mastery reserved for the savants and the obsessed?

Not just savants and obsessed, but there does need to be an enjoyment of it. Otherwise there is no reason to put in enough effort to attain mastery. You can't ignore the fact that for most things, to attain mastery you need more that just technique. Technique you get from practice practice practice, but just because you can play any song put before you on the piano, it doesn't mean you have mastery. Can you really bring the piece alive? Make people feel it as well as hear it? Convey the story that it's telling? Someone that doesn't have a love of music, and a love of the instrument being play will not likely have that if only because what they are doing is a chore rather than and enjoyable activity.

Besides, when you love to do something, even practicing doesn't need to be forced nearly as much as when you are doing something you would rather not be doing or couldn't care less about. The article this is a spin off of, the author mentions making your children practice a certain number of hours a day... DD doesn't need us to make her practice an hour, or two, or more a day. Hell some days we have to make her stop. 

[Lisa1970]

I will require my child give it their all while they are in an activity. But if it is not a good fit, we just move on at a certain point. So, I signed my daughter u for soccer and she knew right away she hated it. But I made her stick it out for the season and do all that was required for it and have a good attitude. Later, she moved on to other things. Eventually, she settled on fencing, which is her thing. Oh, and music. She does both and with full commitment too.

[GoBecGo]

I subscribe to the Agile theory of mastery - it takes ten years and ten thousand hours of practice to attain mastery.  So i don't push my kids to attain it, only let them know that practice, eventually, makes perfect.

[rightkindofme]

By the 10,000 hours metric my husband is a master 5 or 6 times over at programming.  And I wouldn't be shocked if it was actually 7 or 8 times over because I swear the man programs in his sleep.  No one pushed him towards that.  If he could never work as a programmer again he would still do it in every spare minute of his time.  I don't believe that kind of devotion can be forced.  I truly don't.  Either you have that passion or you don't.  I don't have it and I'm probably not a 'master' of anything in the same way.  I'm ok with that.  I don't see how he has a better life than me in most ways.  (Ok, his obsessive passion happens to be in a job field where he makes a pretty obscene amount of money... but that's unusual for things that people are very passionate about.)  He's not happier.  He doesn't do as well at 'life' as I do.  So I'm not real worried about my kids doing the same thing. :)

Edit: and actually, given his Aspergers he has an edge on the whole 'obsessive interest' thing. :)

[tinuviel_k]

This one is a fine line for me. I am not too concerned with "mastery" per say. But if my child (or I) am doing an activity I would like for us to give it our best effort. If I know that she genuinely enjoys it I will push for practice even on the hard days. i do not want to give the lesson that we only have to do an activity when it is "fun." Sometimes we have to push through and keep on working through the hard and frustrating times.

Example: my daughter and I are talking piano lessons (she is 7). She likes the piano but I don't think she is obsessed enough to ever be truly great at it. This is just fine with me: I would like her to learn for the enjoyment of it, for the the lesson that hard work pays off in learning and eventual proficiency, for the satisfaction of working to do something well, and for the beauty of it.
I am a stickler for practicing every day (we do take a break on the weekends). We are investing money and time in the lessons, and I do not want her or I to take that for granted. So we practice daily. Sometimes she does not want to practice: her friends are outside, she wants to watch a movie, there are more fun things to do. But we pick a time together (I've found that before bedtime is good for us), we sit down, and we practice. If it is frustrating we talk about it. Sometimes we can make a game out of practice, something silly to make it fun and unusual. But most of the time we enjoy the practice just as it is. But what i don't want her to learn is that when things get a little hard it is ok to automatically quit. I would never force a child to do an extra-curricular activity that they hate, but I also won't encourage a child quit an activity they enjoy just because they are having a difficult period.

For about a month my daughter was getting very frustrated and emotional during her practice. My husband even thought we should just let her quit. I disagreed, though. It was a good time for us to talk about learning, how it can be hard, and how we make mistakes and that is okay. How sometimes you just have to push on through the hard times knowing that it will get better and easier with time. How whenever we learn ANYTHING, be it piano, violin, karate, ballet, reading, knitting... there are going to be hard and frustrating times when we want to cry, yell, quit, or just get sad. And that is okay. You can feel those feelings, look at the closely, and then know that they are going to go away with time and practice.

I let my daughter have a couple weeks break from piano at that point while I brainstormed some new ideas and techniques to help make practice more fun and less frustrating. I came up with some neat games, discovered the pre-bedtime practice time (she loves the idea of "staying up extra" to play the piano instead of having to go to bed), and did some thinking. She came back to the piano refreshed, ready to learn, and she was amazed at how quickly she was able to pick up the next songs on the book. she told me, "Mama, I am SO PROUD of me!" We both learned the lesson that a little break can sometimes make a lot of difference, but that being frustrated is not a good reason to quit.

[GoBecGo]

Yeah, that's why i wouldn't push for mastery, because to me it's really hard to achieve (FWIW my DP is a software architect and Agile specialist and he's probably an Agile-style master of Agile 5 or 6 times over too!) and not really worth achieving unless one has a true passion for a thing.  I hope to achieve mastery at 2 or 3 things IN MY LIFETIME.  I'm certainly not about to ask my kids to sit about wasting their childhood on something that is a slog instead of a passion.  IME kids are like moths at a bulb with passions.  It's hard, they get (emotionally, sometimes physically) banged up when they act on their attraction, but they still cannot resist it.  I run REALLY badly - i'm slow, i get a ton of injuries, i train and train for very mediocre times.  But i love it.  I can't stop doing it.  My little tin medals for "doing the distance" are treasures for me!  I'm never going to be the winner of any race anyone else has actually entered, but i'm doing something i love and really enjoy.  I don't think being brilliant at something is better than being happy doing it.  I'd rather live and die happy than successful.  If something else i'm good at also brings success that'd be wonderful, but if it doesn't...oh well.  :D

Edit - my DP is Aspie too! :D

[rightkindofme]

Originally Posted by GoBecGo 

Yeah, that's why i wouldn't push for mastery, because to me it's really hard to achieve (FWIW my DP is a software architect and Agile specialist and he's probably an Agile-style master of Agile 5 or 6 times over too!) and not really worth achieving unless one has a true passion for a thing.  I hope to achieve mastery at 2 or 3 things IN MY LIFETIME.  I'm certainly not about to ask my kids to sit about wasting their childhood on something that is a slog instead of a passion.  IME kids are like moths at a bulb with passions.  It's hard, they get (emotionally, sometimes physically) banged up when they act on their attraction, but they still cannot resist it.  I run REALLY badly - i'm slow, i get a ton of injuries, i train and train for very mediocre times.  But i love it.  I can't stop doing it.  My little tin medals for "doing the distance" are treasures for me!  I'm never going to be the winner of any race anyone else has actually entered, but i'm doing something i love and really enjoy.  I don't think being brilliant at something is better than being happy doing it.  I'd rather live and die happy than successful.  If something else i'm good at also brings success that'd be wonderful, but if it doesn't...oh well.  :D

Edit - my DP is Aspie too! :D

I long ago decided we have lots in common. :)  I'm a crappy runner who is plugging along anyway as well!  (Uhm, I'm describing myself as crappy... not you...)

[Llyra]

If something is really important to a person, they don't need to be pushed-- they'll push themselves. Nobody made me work hard at ballet as a child-- I did it on my own, because I felt driven to it. If a child doesn't feel that drive, I don't understand what we accomplish by pushing them. I would rather let them dabble in this and that until they find the thing that really lights a fire under them. DD1 wanted to play soccer last year, for instance-- I got her into the instructional program in our township. She went four times, and just didn't like it. She didn't HATE it, but when it was time to go, she was just never enthused-- she'd say she wasn't finished reading this or that book, or that she had an idea for a project she wanted to make, or that she was tired and would rather have popcorn and a movie. So I said, "you know, DD1, if you like it, then you can go. If not, just let me know you don't want to do it anymore, so I can let the coach know."

[Petie1104]

When ds took tae kwon do, I asked him what belt he would be satisfied getting, he said green belt (that is basically halfway to black).  So, I told him that's fine, but he would not quit until he reached green belt.  He has Developmental Coordination Disorder, so it took him almost 2 years.  Some of the time he was excited, other times he was so annoyed with it he wanted to quit, and no, I wouldn't let him.  He had set a goal and I ensured he met it.  Well, he stopped when he reached green belt and that was about a year ago.  Now he wants to go back and finish, get his black belt. 

When I was 11 I wanted to learn flute.  My mom said that was fine but she had to rent a flute on a 1 year contract, so she said I had to play for 1 year.  I wanted to quit a few times, but stuck with it for the full year because my mom wouldn't let me quit.  I still play and played professionally for a few years. 

I think what needs to happen for kids, is exactly what she said in the article, when you are first learning a skill it IS NOT ALWAYS FUN!!  I can attest to that.  So pushing past the not so fun part to the point where it becomes fun is the important part.  DS will never be an olympic martial arts master, but at least he got to the point where he enjoys doing it.  I will never play in a world class orchestra (though that was my goal before kids) but I LOVE playing flute now.  I don't think mastery should be the goal, I think enjoyment of the activity should be the goal.  Enjoyment can only be attained after you get past the difficult part of the activity.  If the child enjoys it enough, and chooses to work hard at it after they get past the "this is no fun" part, then they can eventually get to the point of mastering the activity.

[Cascadian]

Originally Posted by UnschoolnMa 

I absolutely do not push. I encourage for mastery to the point of personal satisfaction.

 What do they want? What do they need? What's the difference?  Why do they want or need it? What will help them accomplish those things? Where might we find the resources? How do they know or judge when they've reached a satisfactory level of accomplishment? What role does the opinion of others play for them?

I just wanted to say that this really is the first time I'd thought about it that way (especially the second part). I love this. What a great way to take stock of things!

My parents never 'pushed' me per se, but in my family, we just kinda did the activities without complaining too much. Didn't enjoy piano very much, but did it for a number of years. Didn't reach mastery, but proficiency.

OTOH I took up martial arts as a teenager - something I always wanted to do - pushed myself, drove myself (literally and figuratively), and 10 years later, was incredibly proficient/kind of mastered it. I think that's one of my proudest achievements...because it was self driven.

There is such a push for the kids around me to master said violin, dance, piano, ballet, etc. that I sometimes act like the anti-pusher...I have to find a middle ground.

[GoBecGo]

Originally Posted by Petie1104 

When ds took tae kwon do, I asked him what belt he would be satisfied getting, he said green belt (that is basically halfway to black).  So, I told him that's fine, but he would not quit until he reached green belt.  He has Developmental Coordination Disorder, so it took him almost 2 years.  Some of the time he was excited, other times he was so annoyed with it he wanted to quit, and no, I wouldn't let him.  He had set a goal and I ensured he met it.  Well, he stopped when he reached green belt and that was about a year ago.  Now he wants to go back and finish, get his black belt. 

When I was 11 I wanted to learn flute.  My mom said that was fine but she had to rent a flute on a 1 year contract, so she said I had to play for 1 year.  I wanted to quit a few times, but stuck with it for the full year because my mom wouldn't let me quit.  I still play and played professionally for a few years. 

I think what needs to happen for kids, is exactly what she said in the article, when you are first learning a skill it IS NOT ALWAYS FUN!!  I can attest to that.  So pushing past the not so fun part to the point where it becomes fun is the important part.  DS will never be an olympic martial arts master, but at least he got to the point where he enjoys doing it.  I will never play in a world class orchestra (though that was my goal before kids) but I LOVE playing flute now.  I don't think mastery should be the goal, I think enjoyment of the activity should be the goal.  Enjoyment can only be attained after you get past the difficult part of the activity.  If the child enjoys it enough, and chooses to work hard at it after they get past the "this is no fun" part, then they can eventually get to the point of mastering the activity.

I'm sorry but that's simply not true.  I mentioned above how much i enjoy being a crappy runner (and yes rightkindofme, i am super-crappy!  lol), and as a kid i LOVED horse-riding, even when i was still on a leadrope, even later when i was constantly falling off.   I once finished a schooling session with a broken arm after getting thrown off.  Some things are just "right" and you don't care about it being hard, or painful, or you not being very good at it, because you like it so much.  I love playing classical guitar really not very well (self-taught) yet i hated the euphonium, HATED it, even after my mother had forced me to play it for 6 years and i had achieved proficiency.  My DD can read because she's obsessed with the written word.  People think i've hot-housed her, but since she could talk she's been been asking "what's that say?" about 30 times a day.  I've seen her sitting with a book literally crying with the effort of trying to grasp what the letters mean and what the words say, but if you suggest she takes a break she gets so mad at you.  It's like moths to the flame, really it is.  With passion anything is possible.
 

[MusicianDad]

Originally Posted by GoBecGo 

My DD can read because she's obsessed with the written word.  People think i've hot-housed her, but since she could talk she's been been asking "what's that say?" about 30 times a day.  I've seen her sitting with a book literally crying with the effort of trying to grasp what the letters mean and what the words say, but if you suggest she takes a break she gets so mad at you.  It's like moths to the flame, really it is.  With passion anything is possible.

DD was like that when she was first learning the piano. There were days when she'd be in tears because she just could get something, or she'd get frustrated because she could remember what the notations meant. But if you suggest she take a break, even just long enough to calm down, she would throw a fit. She hated scales and drill work, but refused to give it up because she loved the piano and just really wanted to be able the play. The first time she mastered a song, there was no stopping her. Anytime she found someone to listen, she had to play it for them.

That being said, DH was made to learn the piano whether he wanted to or not. He hated it, did the bare minimum just to make his parents happy. He love music, and enjoys playing the guitar (also not very well) and found his musical niche playing drums, but he still hates playing the piano even though he can do it somewhat proficiently.

[Petie1104]

Originally Posted by GoBecGo 

Originally Posted by Petie1104 

When ds took tae kwon do, I asked him what belt he would be satisfied getting, he said green belt (that is basically halfway to black).  So, I told him that's fine, but he would not quit until he reached green belt.  He has Developmental Coordination Disorder, so it took him almost 2 years.  Some of the time he was excited, other times he was so annoyed with it he wanted to quit, and no, I wouldn't let him.  He had set a goal and I ensured he met it.  Well, he stopped when he reached green belt and that was about a year ago.  Now he wants to go back and finish, get his black belt. 

When I was 11 I wanted to learn flute.  My mom said that was fine but she had to rent a flute on a 1 year contract, so she said I had to play for 1 year.  I wanted to quit a few times, but stuck with it for the full year because my mom wouldn't let me quit.  I still play and played professionally for a few years. 

I think what needs to happen for kids, is exactly what she said in the article, when you are first learning a skill it IS NOT ALWAYS FUN!!  I can attest to that.  So pushing past the not so fun part to the point where it becomes fun is the important part.  DS will never be an olympic martial arts master, but at least he got to the point where he enjoys doing it.  I will never play in a world class orchestra (though that was my goal before kids) but I LOVE playing flute now.  I don't think mastery should be the goal, I think enjoyment of the activity should be the goal.  Enjoyment can only be attained after you get past the difficult part of the activity.  If the child enjoys it enough, and chooses to work hard at it after they get past the "this is no fun" part, then they can eventually get to the point of mastering the activity.

I'm sorry but that's simply not true.  I mentioned above how much i enjoy being a crappy runner (and yes rightkindofme, i am super-crappy!  lol), and as a kid i LOVED horse-riding, even when i was still on a leadrope, even later when i was constantly falling off.   I once finished a schooling session with a broken arm after getting thrown off.  Some things are just "right" and you don't care about it being hard, or painful, or you not being very good at it, because you like it so much.  I love playing classical guitar really not very well (self-taught) yet i hated the euphonium, HATED it, even after my mother had forced me to play it for 6 years and i had achieved proficiency.  My DD can read because she's obsessed with the written word.  People think i've hot-housed her, but since she could talk she's been been asking "what's that say?" about 30 times a day.  I've seen her sitting with a book literally crying with the effort of trying to grasp what the letters mean and what the words say, but if you suggest she takes a break she gets so mad at you.  It's like moths to the flame, really it is.  With passion anything is possible.
 

I never said, or advocated forcing a child to play an instrument for 6 years.  What I advocate is setting a goal and ensuring the child reaches the goal they set.  If I would have allowed him to quit the first time he got frustrated, he would not have even made it to orange belt, (that's right after white belt).  Everyone has things they are naturally good at, but I think there is value in a child learning to struggle through something they are interested in learning.  I also don't advocate saying, "you will learn karate".  But if one of my children says, "hey, I want to learn karate" I'm not going to allow them to quit the moment it gets difficult.  If I do that then I am allowing them to NEVER learn that there are some things you have to work at and guess what, they ARE fun, after you get past the basics.  DS was a natural reader.  He started reading before he was 4 and was reading confidently shortly there after.  It came easy to him, tae kwon do he struggled with.  Guess which one he is most proud of.  It's not the reading, he doesn't think twice about reading.  He is proud that he made it to green belt.  He had to work hard for that, it wasn't easy for him and he pushed through and proved to himself he was capable of it.  DD wasn't proud about the fact that she could ride a two wheeler because she only had her training wheels on for about a month and then it took her less than an hour to become proficient.  She is VERY proud that she just read "Are You My Mother?"  simply because she worked hard, pushed through the hard times and finally was able to conquer her Mt. Everest. 
 

[MusicianDad]

Originally Posted by Petie1104 

Originally Posted by GoBecGo 

Originally Posted by Petie1104 

When ds took tae kwon do, I asked him what belt he would be satisfied getting, he said green belt (that is basically halfway to black).  So, I told him that's fine, but he would not quit until he reached green belt.  He has Developmental Coordination Disorder, so it took him almost 2 years.  Some of the time he was excited, other times he was so annoyed with it he wanted to quit, and no, I wouldn't let him.  He had set a goal and I ensured he met it.  Well, he stopped when he reached green belt and that was about a year ago.  Now he wants to go back and finish, get his black belt. 

When I was 11 I wanted to learn flute.  My mom said that was fine but she had to rent a flute on a 1 year contract, so she said I had to play for 1 year.  I wanted to quit a few times, but stuck with it for the full year because my mom wouldn't let me quit.  I still play and played professionally for a few years. 

I think what needs to happen for kids, is exactly what she said in the article, when you are first learning a skill it IS NOT ALWAYS FUN!!  I can attest to that.  So pushing past the not so fun part to the point where it becomes fun is the important part.  DS will never be an olympic martial arts master, but at least he got to the point where he enjoys doing it.  I will never play in a world class orchestra (though that was my goal before kids) but I LOVE playing flute now.  I don't think mastery should be the goal, I think enjoyment of the activity should be the goal.  Enjoyment can only be attained after you get past the difficult part of the activity.  If the child enjoys it enough, and chooses to work hard at it after they get past the "this is no fun" part, then they can eventually get to the point of mastering the activity.

I'm sorry but that's simply not true.  I mentioned above how much i enjoy being a crappy runner (and yes rightkindofme, i am super-crappy!  lol), and as a kid i LOVED horse-riding, even when i was still on a leadrope, even later when i was constantly falling off.   I once finished a schooling session with a broken arm after getting thrown off.  Some things are just "right" and you don't care about it being hard, or painful, or you not being very good at it, because you like it so much.  I love playing classical guitar really not very well (self-taught) yet i hated the euphonium, HATED it, even after my mother had forced me to play it for 6 years and i had achieved proficiency.  My DD can read because she's obsessed with the written word.  People think i've hot-housed her, but since she could talk she's been been asking "what's that say?" about 30 times a day.  I've seen her sitting with a book literally crying with the effort of trying to grasp what the letters mean and what the words say, but if you suggest she takes a break she gets so mad at you.  It's like moths to the flame, really it is.  With passion anything is possible.
 

I never said, or advocated forcing a child to play an instrument for 6 years.  What I advocate is setting a goal and ensuring the child reaches the goal they set.  If I would have allowed him to quit the first time he got frustrated, he would not have even made it to orange belt, (that's right after white belt).  Everyone has things they are naturally good at, but I think there is value in a child learning to struggle through something they are interested in learning.  I also don't advocate saying, "you will learn karate".  But if one of my children says, "hey, I want to learn karate" I'm not going to allow them to quit the moment it gets difficult.  If I do that then I am allowing them to NEVER learn that there are some things you have to work at and guess what, they ARE fun, after you get past the basics.  DS was a natural reader.  He started reading before he was 4 and was reading confidently shortly there after.  It came easy to him, tae kwon do he struggled with.  Guess which one he is most proud of.  It's not the reading, he doesn't think twice about reading.  He is proud that he made it to green belt.  He had to work hard for that, it wasn't easy for him and he pushed through and proved to himself he was capable of it.  DD wasn't proud about the fact that she could ride a two wheeler because she only had her training wheels on for about a month and then it took her less than an hour to become proficient.  She is VERY proud that she just read "Are You My Mother?"  simply because she worked hard, pushed through the hard times and finally was able to conquer her Mt. Everest. 
 

But where does helping them achieve their goals end and forcing them to do something they really don't like start? And really, there are plenty of times in a child's life to learn that sometimes you have to do things you don't like to do, why should something that is supposed to be fun be one of those things? The first couple of times I can see saying "You really wanted x, so you should keep at." but at some point you have to say "you really aren't enjoying this like you should, I think it's ok to stop even if you haven't gotten x yet."

[Cascadian]

*

Edited by Cascadian - 6/2/11 at 7:49pm

[Annie Mac]

That Chinese Mother excerpt was quite interesting, and got me thinking (as an aside, I really wish MDC would open up News/Current Events to the general population so that there would be enough people to generate interesting discussions...but that's a spin off of its own!). I guess the whole "mastery" thing comes down to what you're trying to teach your child. The Chinese Mother *is* teaching her child something of real value, however harsh it seems. She is showing them a method to meet goals and get things done, even when they don't want to. That's a rare but very important skill. On the other hand, what are extracurricular activities for? Are they for fun or for serious mastery of a sport or an instrument or whatever?

I can also see the cultural aspect of it. N. Americans are so individualistic. We believe it is our obligation to expose our kids to as many things as possible, so they can discover where their passion lies. Well, maybe there are other ways of looking at it. Maybe it's NOT every parent's obligation to bring out the individual, maybe it is a parent's job to find a niche for their child where there is a need, and groom them for it. More of a societal way of raising a child than an individual one. I don't know...just thinking out loud here. 

I don't know how I'll deal with it when the time comes (LO is still under a year), but maybe something in between, as other parents have alluded to. Like, you signed up for and I paid for a season's worth of ice skating lessons, so you will attend them, and then we will reevaluate whether or not you want to continue.