Spin off of Chinese mother thread (sort of): How do you encourage a child to attain 'mastery' in... - Page 2

[SpiderMum]

We don't push at all in anything.  My child has to the right to decide for herself what she wants to do with her time.  I'm jack of all trades myself and it's not a bad thing.  I enjoy what I do even if I'm not a master at it.  It's not worth harming your relationship with your kids to make them finish something.

[Linda on the move]

We don't push anything, none the less both my kids are quite good at several things. For a long time they were both competitive swimmers. I saw such a difference in the kids who were there because they wanted to be, and the kids who were there because they had to be. I'm quite content to let my children develop their own passions rather than making parenting into a power struggle so that I can end up with better bragging rights.

To answer the question, we help them find their passion and then provide them with tools, resources, coaches, ect, and then stay out of the way.

[Smokering]

Is true mastery reserved for the savants and the obsessed?

Interesting. I'd be inclined to say yes, but with the caveat that certain people have the discipline to "fake" obsession. There are some jobs which require you to be temporarily and intensely consumed by a subject, and some people can do 'em. My DH (who has Aspie traits) is a copywriter, and he has to do that to an extent - "pretend" to reallyreallyreally care about whatever the website is selling, get a quick but intimate knowledge of the company, the clients, the product and so on. He has to be an instant expert. And he does it, time and time again, and writes copy that makes him sound like a master of the subject. Which he isn't, but I think he's mastering copywriting pretty darn fast. And his obsession with that was genuine.

I think if a person has some really compelling motivation to learn something - "Become an awesome accountant or you cannot marry my daughter!", or "Discover a cure for cancer before your kid dies of it" - they can sometimes force themselves to be "obsessed" by sheer effort of will, even in subjects that they'd ordinarily find very boring. Maybe everyone has blocks they just can't get over - I'm not sure I could make myself learn finances or accounting, with all the good will in the world - but people can become genuinely good at stuff that isn't "their thing" if they have to be. I think.

I'm not sure where I stand on this as a parent - DD isn't three yet, and has yet to start any classes or formal schooling. I suspect I'll have some practical demands, like most parents - if I pay for 10 lessons she can't quit after the first two, and so on. But in general, I hope I'll know her well enough to sense when she's just being lazy/doubting herself/going through a rough patch at an activity she really enjoys, and when she's really just plodding along, enduring some activity that really isn't her thing. And while I want to cultivate diligence and hard work, there are enough activities and subjects in the world that she ought to be able to cultivate those doing things she enjoys.

Re the "10,000 hours" theory, I'm now wondering if there's anything I've mastered (other than sleep, possibly, and I'm not too hot at that right now). Cooking, maybe? And I wouldn't say I've mastered every avenue of the culinary arts, at all - but it's definitely the area in which I'm most confident and competent. And yes, I was obsessed with that as a kid (and continue to be, off and on). I used to count it a day wasted in which I hadn't baked something; I'd read cookbooks for hours at the library; I'd copy recipes from cookbooks in magazines and even bookstores (I know, I know). And I was never pushed at all - Mum let me do it, and encouraged it, insofar as she hated cooking and preferred not to do it, but I never "had" to do it. And that worked out OK. :) So I guess if and when a certain level of obsession is there, it becomes a non-issue (barring learning or attention disabilities and so on, I suppose). FTR, I'm a bit Aspie too.

[leighi123]

Ds does really really well at things he loves to do.  He works hard, tries hard, and practices willingly.   So I think its a matter of finding something the child really wants to do and encouraging that.  

I also agree that if you commit to something, they should be expected to follow through for a set amount of time.  For example, ds takes classes at the rec center that you pay monthly.  If he decided he didnt like something, we would finish the month and then re-evaluate and maybe switch to something new (unless it was a problem that could easily be fixed, like a dance class he took he was upset because he had black shoes and wanted pink, so I got him the pink shoes and he ended up loving the class!)

For things that HAVE to be done, school stuff and things like learning to read:  you make it fun!  Ds loving learning to read because even though its hard work and we practice every day, we make it fun, I write words on a whiteboard, in sand, in chalk outside, make them out of playdoh, etc.  Its not just drills all day that are boring for anyone.  You have to make learning something he WANTS to do, it makes it more fun to teach too, and he learns faster. 

[treeoflife3]

I plan on pushing kiddo but only to the extent that makes sense for her.  I think how much you push a child depends on the child.  I have no mastery in anything and I wasn't pushed in anything either... however I also think I'm the type who really really needs to be pushed.  I have a lot of interests so its more likely that I'm lazy or whatnot than sincerely not liking the activity.

With that said though, the things I probably would have pushed myself in were never an option for me.  I wanted to be a dancer to such a point that I hope my kiddo will want to be a dancer.  I won't push her into it but I'd love to live through her if she has the interest.  I also wish I had been started on piano young and pushed to do it.  Those have always been my interests but pushing myself as an adult now is a lot harder than pushing myself as a child, especially since as a child I'd have my mom behind me.

I hope my child can find something she genuinely likes and and I hope she doesn't need to be pushed hard in til she gets to a place of being proficient the way I do.  I also hope she never has to look back and wish I had pushed her more the way I wish I had been pushed into something.  I struggle between wishing my mom had pushed me in an activity and understanding that a single mom of two can only do so much... we didn't have the money for activities and she just didn't have the time or energy to get me to and from them and with me struggling to show any real interest in anything, it was probably hard for her to find the reserves to find a way to make it happen.  Still though, I have no real hobbies or serious interests and its annoying sometimes hehe.

[rightkindofme]

Originally Posted by treeoflife3 
 Those have always been my interests but pushing myself as an adult now is a lot harder than pushing myself as a child, especially since as a child I'd have my mom behind me.

I hope my child can find something she genuinely likes and and I hope she doesn't need to be pushed hard in til she gets to a place of being proficient the way I do.  I also hope she never has to look back and wish I had pushed her more the way I wish I had been pushed into something.  I struggle between wishing my mom had pushed me in an activity and understanding that a single mom of two can only do so much... we didn't have the money for activities and she just didn't have the time or energy to get me to and from them and with me struggling to show any real interest in anything, it was probably hard for her to find the reserves to find a way to make it happen.  Still though, I have no real hobbies or serious interests and its annoying sometimes hehe.

(I'm not picking on you--I swear!)  Ok, I am also a jack-of-all-trades/master-of-nothing and I'm pretty happy with it over all as a life strategy.  There are a lot of things I gave up on as a child (learning to sew is my first and biggest example) of things I also kinda-sorta wish my mom had 'pushed' me to do.  But recently I've been spending a lot of time thinking about my personal belief that it would have been somehow magically easier than pushing myself now.  I kind of wonder if I am fooling myself, ya know?  Maybe it is exactly as hard now and I am just more eager to find an excuse?  (Although I found plenty then!  That's how I got here!)

So I'm kind of wondering, as grown ups: how do we feel about how much our parents pushed/didn't push us?  I kind of feel like I am being lazy when I pass the blame on to my mother for things like this, and really that woman has enough to be blamed for I don't need to add extra stuff on top of it.  Though man is she a convenient target.  At what point do we decide that it isn't about what our parents did/didn't do and just do it now?  I've been thinking about this a lot for myself.  Instead of pushing my kids to attain mastery in stuff they start maybe I should instead get off my lazy @$$ and model the behavior I want them to have and go learn the stuff that is super hard for me where I am going to mess up and fail big time and feel like a loser.  And deal with those feelings.  Does that make sense?  I'm not sure how much this is strictly about parenting so much as personal growth but it all feels tied together.  What do you ladies think?  Maybe our personal growth is inextricably twined with our parenting?

[Petie1104]

Originally Posted by MusicianDad 

Originally Posted by Petie1104 

Originally Posted by GoBecGo 

Originally Posted by Petie1104 

When ds took tae kwon do, I asked him what belt he would be satisfied getting, he said green belt (that is basically halfway to black).  So, I told him that's fine, but he would not quit until he reached green belt.  He has Developmental Coordination Disorder, so it took him almost 2 years.  Some of the time he was excited, other times he was so annoyed with it he wanted to quit, and no, I wouldn't let him.  He had set a goal and I ensured he met it.  Well, he stopped when he reached green belt and that was about a year ago.  Now he wants to go back and finish, get his black belt. 

When I was 11 I wanted to learn flute.  My mom said that was fine but she had to rent a flute on a 1 year contract, so she said I had to play for 1 year.  I wanted to quit a few times, but stuck with it for the full year because my mom wouldn't let me quit.  I still play and played professionally for a few years. 

I think what needs to happen for kids, is exactly what she said in the article, when you are first learning a skill it IS NOT ALWAYS FUN!!  I can attest to that.  So pushing past the not so fun part to the point where it becomes fun is the important part.  DS will never be an olympic martial arts master, but at least he got to the point where he enjoys doing it.  I will never play in a world class orchestra (though that was my goal before kids) but I LOVE playing flute now.  I don't think mastery should be the goal, I think enjoyment of the activity should be the goal.  Enjoyment can only be attained after you get past the difficult part of the activity.  If the child enjoys it enough, and chooses to work hard at it after they get past the "this is no fun" part, then they can eventually get to the point of mastering the activity.

I'm sorry but that's simply not true.  I mentioned above how much i enjoy being a crappy runner (and yes rightkindofme, i am super-crappy!  lol), and as a kid i LOVED horse-riding, even when i was still on a leadrope, even later when i was constantly falling off.   I once finished a schooling session with a broken arm after getting thrown off.  Some things are just "right" and you don't care about it being hard, or painful, or you not being very good at it, because you like it so much.  I love playing classical guitar really not very well (self-taught) yet i hated the euphonium, HATED it, even after my mother had forced me to play it for 6 years and i had achieved proficiency.  My DD can read because she's obsessed with the written word.  People think i've hot-housed her, but since she could talk she's been been asking "what's that say?" about 30 times a day.  I've seen her sitting with a book literally crying with the effort of trying to grasp what the letters mean and what the words say, but if you suggest she takes a break she gets so mad at you.  It's like moths to the flame, really it is.  With passion anything is possible.
 

I never said, or advocated forcing a child to play an instrument for 6 years.  What I advocate is setting a goal and ensuring the child reaches the goal they set.  If I would have allowed him to quit the first time he got frustrated, he would not have even made it to orange belt, (that's right after white belt).  Everyone has things they are naturally good at, but I think there is value in a child learning to struggle through something they are interested in learning.  I also don't advocate saying, "you will learn karate".  But if one of my children says, "hey, I want to learn karate" I'm not going to allow them to quit the moment it gets difficult.  If I do that then I am allowing them to NEVER learn that there are some things you have to work at and guess what, they ARE fun, after you get past the basics.  DS was a natural reader.  He started reading before he was 4 and was reading confidently shortly there after.  It came easy to him, tae kwon do he struggled with.  Guess which one he is most proud of.  It's not the reading, he doesn't think twice about reading.  He is proud that he made it to green belt.  He had to work hard for that, it wasn't easy for him and he pushed through and proved to himself he was capable of it.  DD wasn't proud about the fact that she could ride a two wheeler because she only had her training wheels on for about a month and then it took her less than an hour to become proficient.  She is VERY proud that she just read "Are You My Mother?"  simply because she worked hard, pushed through the hard times and finally was able to conquer her Mt. Everest. 
 

But where does helping them achieve their goals end and forcing them to do something they really don't like start? And really, there are plenty of times in a child's life to learn that sometimes you have to do things you don't like to do, why should something that is supposed to be fun be one of those things? The first couple of times I can see saying "You really wanted x, so you should keep at." but at some point you have to say "you really aren't enjoying this like you should, I think it's ok to stop even if you haven't gotten x yet."

Simple, I know my kids.  DS is most likely to quit at the first sign of difficulty.  He just is.  He doesn't have to work for much, so those few things he has to work at, he wants to quit.  But he REALLY WANTS to be able to do them, he just doesn't want to put forth the effort required to be able to do them.  For him, pushing is necessary, and when he finally is able to do a jumping front kick into a round kick, he is happy and will do them all the time.  So, I think the after effects are what let me know that he really does want to succeed, he just doesn't like the work.  If he learned it and then never really wanted to keep doing it, then I would know that he doesn't like it and he's going through the motions.  The fact is, when he got near the end of having one belt and had his form almost completed, his self defense down, and only had to work on his one steps, he was excited, ready to go an hour early etc.  When he got his new belt, he was excited, it is during that period where he knows the first 6 steps of his form and he sees how much work is left that he would decide he wants to quit.  Once over that hurdle he would be excited again. 

With dd, well, she doesn't need much of a push except in academics.  One pp said they made reading fun.  Problem with dd is no matter how fun you make it, it is HARD WORK for her.  Her brain just doesn't process things well.  So for her, it's all push.  She doesn't like it, unfortunately she's got no choice in the matter.  When she decided to go to gymnastics, she went through level 1 so quickly I didn't have time to adjust to her being on the equiptment before she was doing more complicated things.  She and ds are complete opposites.  He is very cerebral, she is very physical. 

With ds 2, he is really too young for me to know.  Right now he has fun at everything he does.  He likes gymnastics and is better at that than his sister.  He likes kicking a ball around and is actually pretty good at that too.  I'll have to figure him out as he grows. 

DSS just isn't interested in anything.  He's 13 and honestly, right now, his biggest interest is in going back to camp to see his girlfriend again.  I'm impressed their relationship has lasted since last summer. 

Basically, it's about knowing my children and knowing how they react to pressure, hard work, and disappointment.  In knowing that, I help them set goals (green belt, being able to read one whole book etc) and in setting those goals they are then expected to complete them. 

[treeoflife3]

Originally Posted by rightkindofme 

Originally Posted by treeoflife3 
 Those have always been my interests but pushing myself as an adult now is a lot harder than pushing myself as a child, especially since as a child I'd have my mom behind me.

I hope my child can find something she genuinely likes and and I hope she doesn't need to be pushed hard in til she gets to a place of being proficient the way I do.  I also hope she never has to look back and wish I had pushed her more the way I wish I had been pushed into something.  I struggle between wishing my mom had pushed me in an activity and understanding that a single mom of two can only do so much... we didn't have the money for activities and she just didn't have the time or energy to get me to and from them and with me struggling to show any real interest in anything, it was probably hard for her to find the reserves to find a way to make it happen.  Still though, I have no real hobbies or serious interests and its annoying sometimes hehe.

(I'm not picking on you--I swear!)  Ok, I am also a jack-of-all-trades/master-of-nothing and I'm pretty happy with it over all as a life strategy.  There are a lot of things I gave up on as a child (learning to sew is my first and biggest example) of things I also kinda-sorta wish my mom had 'pushed' me to do.  But recently I've been spending a lot of time thinking about my personal belief that it would have been somehow magically easier than pushing myself now.  I kind of wonder if I am fooling myself, ya know?  Maybe it is exactly as hard now and I am just more eager to find an excuse?  (Although I found plenty then!  That's how I got here!)

So I'm kind of wondering, as grown ups: how do we feel about how much our parents pushed/didn't push us?  I kind of feel like I am being lazy when I pass the blame on to my mother for things like this, and really that woman has enough to be blamed for I don't need to add extra stuff on top of it.  Though man is she a convenient target.  At what point do we decide that it isn't about what our parents did/didn't do and just do it now?  I've been thinking about this a lot for myself.  Instead of pushing my kids to attain mastery in stuff they start maybe I should instead get off my lazy @$$ and model the behavior I want them to have and go learn the stuff that is super hard for me where I am going to mess up and fail big time and feel like a loser.  And deal with those feelings.  Does that make sense?  I'm not sure how much this is strictly about parenting so much as personal growth but it all feels tied together.  What do you ladies think?  Maybe our personal growth is inextricably twined with our parenting?

well, I DO think it is exactly as hard now but I'm more eager to find an excuse.  However I also think its a cycle of needing to be pushed to learn something, never having been pushed, and now struggling to do it myself.  I have no doubts that i'd have an equally hard time now as an adult to learn new things, however had I been pushed into accomplishments when I was younger, I'd have those successes to draw from.  As it stands, I have nothing.  It would be just as hard sure because I wouldn't have mommy there pushing me since I am an adult, but I'd also have things I know I CAN do and can look back at how I pushed through.  Although logically I know I could push through now, its a pretty big wall for me to climb over.  It definitely is a personal growth issue as well.

I don't hold it against my mom.  I would like to but like you, I have enough other things to blame her over.  This is one of those things where I think it would have been a damned if you do, damned if you don't sort of situation.  She could have pushed me but with how little time she had for me in the younger years where it really mattered and how little resources she had to have me in activities, it could have easily been a situation where she pushed me in something I honestly didn't like at all which can lead to other issues.  At this point, it really is about me and my struggle to try to do something I have a hard time believing I can do.  I hate failure.  I'm a perfectionist with little self esteem and as much as I can argue that it can be blamed on my mom, that can't be changed now.

however, I do take it as a learning opportunity for my child.  I want to make sure I CAN find a way to get her into activities she likes and then learn just how much to push her at it.. whether I won't need to at all, or will need to at every step til she is quite far has yet to be determined.  I really like the approach of just setting a goal and making them at least meet that (finishing through the paid lessons, getting to a certain belt, learning a certain song.. whatever)  its an easy way to let your child know you want them to enjoy what they are doing, but also that they might not enjoy it at first and need to get somewhere.  Make a goal and keep it and reassess.  makes sense to me.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by treeoflife3 
well, I DO think it is exactly as hard now but I'm more eager to find an excuse.  However I also think its a cycle of needing to be pushed to learn something, never having been pushed, and now struggling to do it myself.  I have no doubts that i'd have an equally hard time now as an adult to learn new things, however had I been pushed into accomplishments when I was younger, I'd have those successes to draw from.  As it stands, I have nothing. 

....At this point, it really is about me and my struggle to try to do something I have a hard time believing I can do.  I hate failure.  I'm a perfectionist with little self esteem and as much as I can argue that it can be blamed on my mom, that can't be changed now.

Sign up for a class that sounds interesting to you. There are TONS of options as an adult, and a lot of those classes are structured on really enjoying the activity. There are dance classes, art classes, music classes, etc. Just set aside an hour or two a week and go do something that sounds fun. You are assuming that whatever it is will be real Work that you will have to Push Yourself to do. Rather than seeing it that way, you could pivot your thoughts to taking some time to figure out what you are passionate about it. Just go have fun figuring out what you are passionate about. Be open minded. Try new things.

Get messy! Make mistakes!

Classes for grown ups tend to be a lot more fun than classes on the same topic for kids. It's more about having the experience of just doing it, of just trying something new. There's really no way to fail. If you want to dance, go dance! Live your own life a little more fully.

A few years ago I got interested in yoga, and then I got more and more interested, and then I decided to go to yoga teacher training. Then I had a panic attack because I felt like I was too old, fat, etc. to be a yoga teacher (and I was twice as old as the other people there) but I did it any way because by that point, I was really passionate about yoga! I teach now, and I have a new student who is 70!!!

DH and I support the kids in their interests, and we've always required a certain committment on new activities (such as going for the whole month is we pay by the month, or sticking out the 7 week session if they signed for a 7 week session), I think they've learned a lot by seeing me find my own passion, facing my own fears and insecurities, and seeing me just keep moving forward.

[kfillmore]

My sisters and I really (really) regret that my parents did NOT do more pushing/encouraging. We feel are not good at anything and that we never learned all the other "life lesson" type things that comes with sticking with something. I guess I don't mean anyone needs to be the best at anything but it would be really nice to speak another language, play an instrument, be good at some visual art, dance (all the things we took lessons for).

I think there actually are two issues.

One-teaching how to push past fear, procrastination, laziness etc do do something you want to do (even just sort of want to do, like practicing or homework.) I mean that both emotionally and practically (eg. planning a set time to study).  Also, learning how to know what you truly like and don't like. I also think that the lack of this learning affected our ability to manage decisions and schoolwork, even in graduate school!

Two-helping your child reach adulthood with a skill in art, dance, language etc. That is a GIFT.