I'm afraid to have kids with my DP

[Cyllya]

I really love him. He's actually a real sweet heart. He's laid-back, quiet, calm, and patient. He's introverted like me and is getting good at understanding what I'm saying despite my poor verbal communication skills (I get words switched around and so on). I think he could be a great APing GDing dad!

But... He wants to be the total opposite of the kind of parent I want to be.

He strongly believes in spanking. Actually, if I remember right, he thinks it's okay to hit kids with a belt, though he insists that this is not "beating" them.  He's a huge fan of public school. I've fished for his opinions on extended breastfeeding, home birth, EC, cloth diapers, and teaching babies sign language, and he feels negatively about all of those. It seems like there's a lot of little things he believes in making kids do or forbidding them from doing that I just don't see a point in, and I just don't want to have the kind of lifestyle or parent/child relationship that he seems to want.

Spanking, homeschooling, and the rationing of Halloween candy are the only things we've discussed at length. He told me a story about his parents spanking him which was supposed to be a pro-spanking argument, but it actually just horrified me. The ethics of spanking aside, it actually seems like it was unsafe for his parents to do what they did. And the story ended with him trying to run away from an impending spanking (but they caught him and spanked him of course), and having been in that position myself as a kid, it broke my heart to think of it happening to him.

I feel like he kind of blows off my opinions. He says I'm only against spanking because I had crappy parents. Okay, I was abused, but that doesn't invalidate my parenting opinions, does it? And he says I'm only so pro-homeschooling because I had a crappy experience in school and most people don't have such a bad time, but I don't think my experience in school was particularly bad (actually I think it was pretty good?). And sometimes our discussions end up with him saying something I feel is totally ludicrous. I'm not sure if he really believes that (which seems weird, since he's normally intelligent), if he's quickly trying to find any objection and not thinking each on through (I'm guilty of that occasionally), or if he's just being ornery in order to make me so frustrated I give up. I suppose he feels like I'm criticizing his parents when I say spanking is wrong, and I suppose I am, but just because he had good parents doesn't mean there's not room for improvement, right?

It seems like everyone changes a bunch of their parenting opinions once they actually have children, so I suppose a lot of mine will change too. But at least I'm doing a lot of research and figuring out what my options are. He just plans to repeat how his parents did it.

I always used to say to myself that I'd never be one of those women who tried to change her partner... and I've heard "You can't change other people; you can only change yourself,"... but I'm not liking the implications to that.

Has anyone else here disagreed dramatically with their partner before having kids? Or while you already had kids? How did it work out for you?

[pianojazzgirl]

Oh boy.  That's tough.  I honestly don't know if I'd count on the whole "everyone changes a bunch of their parenting opinions once they actually have children" thing (though I agree with you on that!) when it came to something as vitally important to me as whether it was acceptable for someone to hit my kids.  For me spanking is absolutely unacceptable.  If I thought my dp would actually spank my (future) children despite the fact that I was so very opposed then I wouldn't choose to have children with him.  I might feel differently if I knew that, though he thought spanking was a good idea, he (out of deference to my strong opinion on the matter) would never lay a hand on my kids....  but I still don't know if I'd trust that he actually would never spank them.

The other stuff... extended breastfeeding, cloth dipes, etc I don't think I'd worry about too much.  Those are the kind of things that people change their opinions about after the kids actually come along, or can be worked out with some good discussions, yk. 

But the spanking could be a deal breaker (for me at least).  I think some more conversations on the subject are definitely in order before you decide to start a family.  Maybe knowing that he would at least agree to not spank would change things.  You need to talk it out.

[cristeen]

To start, I agree with pianojazzgirl - if spanking is such a huge issue for you, then I would not start a family with someone with whom you cannot agree on that subject. 

But, from what you described, the relationship itself needs a fair bit of work before you even get to the spanking conversation.  The two of you need to learn how to have a disagreement, a debate and even a fight without resorting to emotional manipulation or blackmail.  Blowing off someone's concerns, telling them what they're feeling, and running them in verbal circles until they give up are not conducive to a good relationship.  Take it from someone who's there now - this is not a fun place to be, particularly after the kids arrive.  Get some couples counseling, and/or some communication training between you to facilitate better communication.  Once you can even contemplate having the spanking conversation without fear, then it's time to have it. 

A lot of the rest will most likely work itself out.  Things like CD, EC, EBF and even HB have demonstrable benefits for the people involved, and even if he doesn't agree, can often fall into the class of things that don't really need to be debated.  CD/EC can often fall into the pattern of mom doing one thing and dad doing another - that doesn't have to be an argument.  EBF has obvious medical benefits, and can be presented as a fact - no discussion necessary, he doesn't get a say in the matter.  As for HB - that one can be a bit trickier, and often depends on your relationship.  My DH took the stance of "whatever makes you happy", some mamas have to go with "my body, my choice", some mamas feel they have to compromise, and some mamas can share enough info that their DPs change their minds. 

For myself, with my DH, we were both beaten as children.  He doesn't necessarily agree with GD, but he knows that the second he deliberately raises his hand to our children, they and I will be gone (as we would be if he ever deliberately raised his hand to me).  He will learn other methods with time (our DS is only 15 mos), but he knew from the beginning that hitting was not acceptable, period.  And while he does not necessarily agree with me about GD, he respects and accepts that hitting is a deal-breaker, and I trust him to abide by that.  For me, his word is enough because he has proven himself trustworthy. 

HTH

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by cristeen 

But, from what you described, the relationship itself needs a fair bit of work before you even get to the spanking conversation.  The two of you need to learn how to have a disagreement, a debate and even a fight without resorting to emotional manipulation or blackmail.  Blowing off someone's concerns, telling them what they're feeling, and running them in verbal circles until they give up are not conducive to a good relationship.  Take it from someone who's there now - this is not a fun place to be, particularly after the kids arrive.  Get some couples counseling, and/or some communication training between you to facilitate better communication.  Once you can even contemplate having the spanking conversation without fear, then it's time to have it. 

I agree 100%. There are red flags all over the place in your post about your relationship, parenting differences aside. Having a child puts more stress on a relationship than I can begin to explain in a few sentences. Sleep deprivation, changes in our bodies, hormones, out of control, more work than either person realized ahead of time, etc. put even the most solid of relationship through the wringer, and you guys don't have any foundation to work out basic differences.

<<<if he's just being ornery in order to make me so frustrated I give up.>>>>

Why are you in a relationship with someone who you think may just be trying to get you frustrated enough that you give up?  What do you like about this guy? What about you does he love and value? And how does this jive with : "He's actually a real sweet heart. He's laid-back, quiet, calm, and patient."  He doesn't sound like he acts that way. He's sounds quiet, but more in a manipulative way than an accepting way. There's a huge difference between someone who is quit because they have inner peace, and some one who is quiet because they don't care to hear your thoughts or explain their own.

back to parenting differences -- my DH and I have had differences, and we've had times when we BOTH changed our minds about what was best for our kids. What works for us is being the moment with our each other and our kids and seeing what really works. But really listening to each other without judging, so that we can both safely say what we think is a key.

[mamalisa]

OP Quote: "I feel like he kind of blows off my opinions. He says I'm only against spanking because I had crappy parents."

 

But here's the thing about that, all of your life experiences made you who you are.  It doesn't matter WHY you've decided that spanking is wrong, all that matters is that you have.  That should be enough.  If it's not something either one of you are willing to compromise on then it's going to make a very long and difficult time to parent together.  

[HollyBearsMom]

I would be afraid to have kids with him too and in fact would have trouble staying in the relationship as you describe it.

[philomom]

Look, even the best kid will sometimes put a good parent on their last nerve. It is strong temptation during those times to just spank a kid and send them to their room to get your point across. You have to calm down, calm the child down and be creative with consequences sometimes to avoid spanking. I don't think anything you've said about your dh leads me to believe he's the second scenario kind of parent.

[sosurreal09]

I was abused so maybe my opinion doesn't count as much but before DH and I got married (8+ years living together) we heavily discussed these things. He was kind of borderline on the spanking thing, but I showed him research that it is bad, and told him I would never have children with him if he though hitting was ok.

When I got pregnant (on BC and protection, seriously unbelievable...) I reminded him that if he ever laid a hand on our child I would be gone in a heart beat.

neither of us were very crunchy when I got pregnant but I researched a lot and got crunchier and crunchier and everything I researched I shared with DH. He now is fully on board with me in everything we do/will do.

I will say though that being abused still affects me a lot. DH says things some times to DD that I freak out about even though they are not as bad as I see them...(like what's you're problem?)

Today we were at church picking up DD from the toddler room and this guy walks i and says to his son "were you a bad boy" the 3 y/o (if that maybe younger) started wailing "I want mommy" then the dad continues and says "do you need a spanking, bad boy?" The kid was absolutely hysterical and I was standing there in HORROR thinking So help you God if you lay a hand on that baby! 

When we left I said to DH how horrifying that was and how badly I felt for that poor kid. DH was like what the dad was just kidding around. WHAT?! So we discussed what I saw wrong with it and I actually ended up in tears saying if you think that is ok I don't think we should have more kids. After that DH really took the time to listen to why I felt that was horrible and in the end he agreed with why it was not funny or ok.

He grew up being spanked and his 3 y/o nephew gets spanked by everyone for everything...DH has been desensitized to it.

I was a hell of a lot more than spanked, and I am horrified of my children suffering one single slap! I will say though if you're DH thinks BELTS are ok then he needs some help IMO. My father used to beat us with a weight belt that had metal IDK rings on it and that is not ok..when that wasn't available it was the belt he was wearing...still not ok! I have scars from both belts.

[Cyllya]

I should clarify that I feel he blows off my opinions about parenting/children/school, not in general. This isn't typically a problem.
 

Originally Posted by Linda on the move 

Why are you in a relationship with someone who you think may just be trying to get you frustrated enough that you give up?  What do you like about this guy? What about you does he love and value? And how does this jive with : "He's actually a real sweet heart. He's laid-back, quiet, calm, and patient."  He doesn't sound like he acts that way. He's sounds quiet, but more in a manipulative way than an accepting way. There's a huge difference between someone who is quit because they have inner peace, and some one who is quiet because they don't care to hear your thoughts or explain their own.

Thanks for the input, you guys.

 

I agree that this is a couple problem, not a parenting problem. And I can see why he looks like a not-so-nice person from this post (I remember thinking that while writing it). But this is one aspect of him. I think I'm a nice person (and other people have told me so), but I know I've got flaws that he could write a forum post about and get responses like, "What do you like about this woman?! She's totally evil and psychotic!" And I know that sometimes I accidentally say something slightly different than I mean when debating, so I can be sympathetic if that's his problem. And I can see why these discussions frustrate him (I think I'm challenging some of his basic assumptions about life, the universe, and everything, you know?), so I can understand if he gets to a point where he wants to stop the discussion for now, I just have a problem with how he does it. But I'm starting to feel good about the possibility of bringing this up to him and fixing the communication problem. 

Anyone have any ideas on how I can word this complaint in "I" language? (You know, starting with "I..." instead of "You..." so it doesn't sound like an attack?) The best I've got so far is, "You know, sometimes when we disagree, I feel like you're not taking my opinion seriously. And sometimes it seems like you're deliberately being silly just to make me frustrated so I'll give up on the discussion. I can understand if you want to put the discussion off until you have more time to think about it--although these are things we really need to discuss sooner or later--but I would prefer if you just straight-up tell me if that's how you feel." (But "I feel like you..." totally doesn't count as "I" language.)

Since you asked what I like about him and what he values in me, and I don't want to sound like I'm in denial.... With most of my various issues, I really feel like he's either very understanding (e.g. vaginismus, low sex drive, forgetting to do the laundry, etc) or tries to be (e.g. he didn't seem to agree with my choice to take antidepressants, but he was supportive). He comforts me when I'm sad. Other than this parenting thing, he rarely causes me any stress. He helps me out when I'm having trouble dealing with things. He encourages me to better myself. He appreciates it when I go out of my way for his benefit without expecting it. He appreciates that I don't hold him to a certain standard of "manliness." He's got a certain personal problem that he's very grateful I see as a non-issue. He admires that I learn fast.

Originally Posted by cristeen 

For myself, with my DH, we were both beaten as children.  He doesn't necessarily agree with GD, but he knows that the second he deliberately raises his hand to our children, they and I will be gone (as we would be if he ever deliberately raised his hand to me).  He will learn other methods with time (our DS is only 15 mos), but he knew from the beginning that hitting was not acceptable, period.  And while he does not necessarily agree with me about GD, he respects and accepts that hitting is a deal-breaker, and I trust him to abide by that.  For me, his word is enough because he has proven himself trustworthy. 

I could accept that arrangement. But how did your DH feel/react when you told him that it was a deal-breaker? My understanding is that pro-spanking people believe that kids (at least some kids) need to be spanked in order to grow up as decent people. So doesn't he feel that you're harming the children by not spanking? Or does he have faith that you'll eventually come to agree with him when the need arises?

Originally Posted by pianojazzgirl 

The other stuff... extended breastfeeding, cloth dipes, etc I don't think I'd worry about too much.  Those are the kind of things that people change their opinions about after the kids actually come along, or can be worked out with some good discussions, yk. 

But the spanking could be a deal breaker (for me at least).  I think some more conversations on the subject are definitely in order before you decide to start a family.  Maybe knowing that he would at least agree to not spank would change things.  You need to talk it out.

It's going to be a fairly long while before we start TTC (for other reasons), so we have some time. I think I've actually managed to sway in him on the topic of homeschooling, which gives me hope about most other things. But he seems pretty firm on the spanking and the, um... controlling-ness? for lack of a better term. And once when we had a discussion on something that wasn't parenting-related (actually, it was math-related, so way more logical cut-and-dry than something like parenting), it occurred to me that he's pretty resistant to having his mind changed.

Someone suggested couples' counseling. Woah. I guess it's an even bigger deal than I thought. I'll definitely keep the counseling in mind though. We can't afford it right now, but we have time.... Who knows, maybe we won't need it.

 

 

Look, even the best kid will sometimes put a good parent on their last nerve. It is strong temptation during those times to just spank a kid and send them to their room to get your point across. You have to calm down, calm the child down and be creative with consequences sometimes to avoid spanking. I don't think anything you've said about your dh leads me to believe he's the second scenario kind of parent.

He totally doesn't have anger issues. He's one of those people who don't believe in spanking in anger. That's why I said I think he could be a great GD dad. It's just that he believes that a lack of "physical discipline" is unhealthy for kids in the long run.

I have anger issues myself (and I plan to get counseling on that before I have kids), which I think has resulted in him being really angry at me at times, and I feel like he handled those situations respectfully.

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by cristeen 

To start, I agree with pianojazzgirl - if spanking is such a huge issue for you, then I would not start a family with someone with whom you cannot agree on that subject. 

But, from what you described, the relationship itself needs a fair bit of work before you even get to the spanking conversation.  The two of you need to learn how to have a disagreement, a debate and even a fight without resorting to emotional manipulation or blackmail.  Blowing off someone's concerns, telling them what they're feeling, and running them in verbal circles until they give up are not conducive to a good relationship.  Take it from someone who's there now - this is not a fun place to be, particularly after the kids arrive.  Get some couples counseling, and/or some communication training between you to facilitate better communication.  Once you can even contemplate having the spanking conversation without fear, then it's time to have it.

 

Originally Posted by Cyllya 

I should clarify that I feel he blows off my opinions about parenting/children/school, not in general. This isn't typically a problem.

So, then the question is: Why is he not taking these discussions seriously? Is it because it's all theoretical at this point? He feels his opinion strongly? He feels like you're criticizing his parents? And is it really just your views about child-rearing? Do you disagree about other things? If you don't disagree on other things, do you have a basis for comparison. If you do, and this is the only time he does this, why?

Originally Posted by Cyllya 

Anyone have any ideas on how I can word this complaint in "I" language? (You know, starting with "I..." instead of "You..." so it doesn't sound like an attack?) The best I've got so far is, "You know, sometimes when we disagree, I feel like you're not taking my opinion seriously. And sometimes it seems like you're deliberately being silly just to make me frustrated so I'll give up on the discussion. I can understand if you want to put the discussion off until you have more time to think about it--although these are things we really need to discuss sooner or later--but I would prefer if you just straight-up tell me if that's how you feel." (But "I feel like you..." totally doesn't count as "I" language.)

Actually, I think that's pretty good. You might say "I'm not feeling heard on this issue. I'd like to discuss it more at some point in time. When do you think a good time would be?"

Originally Posted by Cyllya 

He totally doesn't have anger issues. He's one of those people who don't believe in spanking in anger. That's why I said I think he could be a great GD dad. It's just that he believes that a lack of "physical discipline" is unhealthy for kids in the long run.

Have you asked him: If you could get the same results without physical discipline would you feel physical discipline is necessary? A lot of people who advocate spanking equate not spanking with no discipline. This is why it's important to be able to discuss it. Would he be open to reading gentle discipline books with you? Dh and I have discussed Love and Logic (we're very much on the same page), and Alfie Kohn (Unconditional Parenting) where we have some significant differences. But the very discussions were helpful.

Originally Posted by Cyllya 

Someone suggested couples' counseling. Woah. I guess it's an even bigger deal than I thought. I'll definitely keep the counseling in mind though. We can't afford it right now, but we have time.... Who knows, maybe we won't need it.

It is a big deal. But the thing is, it's much much cheaper to invest in couple's counseling NOW when your problems are minor and things are going relatively well. Trying counseling when you've got one or two small children and are really stressed out about your differences is harder. (For the same reason, I'd recommend counseling about your anger issues sooner, rather than later.) Preventative maintenance is much cheaper than rebuilding. And having a child is a major thing. If he simply will not consider raising a child without spanking, then you have a life decision to make: is he your life partner?

[Irishmommy]

Originally Posted by Cyllya 

Has anyone else here disagreed dramatically with their partner before having kids?

Yes. I left him. Best decision of my life.

[Linda on the move]

Another interesting place to post this same question might be the single partner forum or the parents as partners forum.

Seeing how these issues can play over years while attempting to raise kids together might help you understand how serious they are. If you have a child with a person who's parenting views differ so greatly from yours that the relationship falls apart (which it can), the other parent still gets to parent the way the want to while they child is with them. So even if you ended up breaking off the relationship with him,  he could spank your child, give it unlimited  candy (or have all kinds of control issues about food), and put it in the court records that homeschooling is disallowed. 

BTW, since he isn't willing to go beyond his parent's limitation, I'm curious what his parents marriage is like and if its the sort of relationship you would like to be in.

[sosurreal09]

He really seems to be defensive of the way his parents raised him. My DH was like that for a while. His mom did a lot of damaging things in raising him, but he would defend her to the death! I think some of it is men not wanting to accept their child hood was less than ideal. Therapy helps a lot, but he needs a realization to begin with. It took us a few years for him to accept it, and he still loves his mom very much, and I in no way interfere with that b/c he needs that relationship, but I am glad he had accepted things before we got married or had children.

If he had not, and was adamant about physical discipline I would not have married him. We have been together since we were 15 and have always had that sickening (to some people) madly in love relationship, but I want a big family and I would choose to be a mother over our relationship...but it has always been my dream to have children so...

I however take it very seriously and absolutely would and will leave DH if anything happened...I would help him to get help..and hope it could all be worked out, because reality is he would have visitation and he would be able to spank when the kids visited him...so what good is that?

[jeteaa]

I think many many VERY GOOD parents feel HB is not the safest choice, that cloth diapers are way too much work, that extended BF (beyond 24 months) is too socially weird and may do more harm for the dc than good. So my opinion is that these are issues that YOU should compromise on. Now, the spanking is what I would be most concerned about. But I think by taking a few group gentle discipline classes and reading GD books together, your DH may come to see why spanking is not the best form of discipline. 

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by jeteaa 

I think many many VERY GOOD parents feel HB is not the safest choice, that cloth diapers are way too much work, that extended BF (beyond 24 months) is too socially weird and may do more harm for the dc than good. So my opinion is that these are issues that YOU should compromise on. Now, the spanking is what I would be most concerned about. But I think by taking a few group gentle discipline classes and reading GD books together, your DH may come to see why spanking is not the best form of discipline. 

I totally disagree with your post. I think that for a woman to make a baby with a man who blows off her opinion on ANY subject is foolish. I think for a woman who would like her child to be raised with GD to consider making a baby with a man who feels children should be beaten with a belt is foolish. The OP'ers DP (not DH) is going to hit his children. She has a big choice NOW about whether or not those are also her children. If she continues the way she is, she will not have that control.

I think to comprise on core issues that are important to a person isn't a path to inner peace, no matter what those core issues were. Both my babies were born in hospitals, and only one used cloth diapers BUT if someone starts out having that as their vision for parenting, to make babies with someone who doesn't share that vision will bring them nothing but pain and conflict.

Raising a child with another person is hard enough without going into it with no respect for each other views and defining "good parenting" in opposite terms. This is all so much easier to fix before there are children in the equation.

Raising a child together means being up in the middle of night together, going to parent teacher conferences together, sometimes doing really rough things like sitting in an waiting room while your child is in surgery. It means being there for the other one when they are at the end of their rope. You do this with someone you can count on to have your back, to hold you up and give you strength. Who tells you to trust your gut. Who respects you. You do this with the person you can count on when everything else is falling apart, because sometimes it really seems like everything IS falling apart.

If the guy can't even agree that hitting a child with a belt is a bad idea, he's not the one. If a guy blows off views that conflict with his own, he's not the guy. (He'll treat his children's opinions the same way).
 

[sosurreal09]

you are not married?

I would leave him. That is a non-negotiable subject IMO.

maybe he will do some thinking then, maybe not

[Snapdragon]

OP I think you should go with your gut- and the title of your post says a lot- that you are actually afraid of having kids with him, and that he says he would want to spank your kids. That would be 100% deal breaker for me.  I know my dh and I have a really good relationship- and did so before we had a baby- and still do- BUT- having a child together has definately put it to the test! IT makes everything so much more important, harder. If you grew up in an abusive situation, then I think it would be wise to not set your kids up to have a parent who thiks that hitting (which is what spanking is) is an okay thing to do. I don't think people change that much on things like that- if anything, sleep deprivation and the stress of parenting makes things harder. Good luck and keep processing and figuring things out

[Cyllya]

Well, good news. I talked to him about our communication issue, and the discussion went pretty well.  Turns out he also felt like I was blowing off his opinions on the subject, so I'm going to work on that. (It's a little hard for me since I feel like I've already heard everything he's saying plus ten different counter arguments for it from all the reading I've done.)

We kept the discussion mostly on the topic of our relationship/communication, rather than parenting opinions, but a few opinions were naturally mentioned. Some things he said made me confident that I can get him to at least consider gentle discipline. I'm still a little nervous about whether or not I can win him over, but he's a smart guy, so it seems like he'd accept it if he learned more about it....

Spanking is definitely a deal breaker though. I've made a promise to myself that I won't ever compromise on that.

Thanks again, everyone.

Another interesting place to post this same question might be the single partner forum or the parents as partners forum.

Do you need a certain number of posts to see the Parents as Partners forum, or something? I've never been able to find it.

[sosurreal09]

It's under life as a parent.

I strongly suggest you do not just wait until you have a baby to completely sway him. Good luck.

[Mulvah]

You got some good advice already, but I just want to say that you're basically planning the lives of your future children with a man that you may or may not even be with when the time comes.  And, you are the one seemingly dictating how things will be in every respect. 

Here's the reality - you need to come up with your non-negotiables and go from there.  If spanking, circumcision, and homebirth (examples only) are your non-negotiables, you need to express that and be willing to compromise on things like CDing, ECing, BLWing, etc.  I would be completely put-off if my partner wanted to dictate everything about how we were going to have children and raise children.  I do think it's important to discuss these things prior to TTC, so I commend you on that.    I think too few people discuss it before it's too late.  But, really, relationships, marriage, motherhood, etc. take compromise and flexibility.  That isn't to say he gets to spank the children or anything like that; you both need to discuss your non-negotiables and come to agreements on those.  As for the rest, yes, discuss them, but be willing to be flexible on things that really are just personal preference.