Second guessing our family sleep choices...

[sharr610]

Hi there.  We have a 3.5yo and a 6 month old.  My 3.5 year old co slept with us until he was about 2.  Even then, I would often end up in his bed for another year or so.  DD comes along.  He stopped sleeping through the night when she was born.  He started to come in our bed, but it was dangerous with his sister so small (we'd wake to see him trying to "hug" her in the middle of the night), so we made him a nest at the foot of our bed.  He comes in every night and just seems so tired.

I have been having talks with friends lately.  Some great mamas who I don't talk to often (read, we don't share a lot of parenting things in common), started talking about using the Ferber method on thier kids at around 6 months.  It was all being said in gentle ways, like "easing them into it" and how our kids "deserve to be sound and independent sleepers"  I think that last line got me the most as I see my son so tired. 

Remind me that we are doing things right and why?  Their arguments are tempting...

[To-Fu]

Just a reminder that this forum (and Mothering/MDC as a whole) does not support the Cry It Out (CIO) sleep-training method.  Thanks for keeping it in mind as the thread continues to grow! :)

[D_McG]

Well, if your son is tired then something is going wrong, right?  But that doesn't have anything to do with CIO (or doesn't have to).  I haven't let either of mine CIO but I change things as needed if they (or I) are not getting the sleep we need.  

If a 3.5 year old isn't sleeping well in part because they are coming in and sleeping in an uncomfortable position in your room then I think it's perfectly fine to stop letting him come in.  Even if there are tears.  When I was nightweaning my daughter we had to stop DS from coming in.  I actually moved out of the bedroom for a few nights and when my son woke up I went in his room, sat in the chair and told him to stay in his bed and sleep.  Over.. and over.. and over.  It was incredibly frustrating and tiring but he was old enough to get it and now he mostly stays in his bed all night (sometimes he comes in which is totally fine.  It was really just that he couldn't come in while she was nightweaning).  

Same thing with smaller kids.  If a child is waking a million times a night to nurse and it's disrupting everyone then I think nightweaning is an good solution, even if short term it's upsetting for all involved.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are other ways to get good sleep apart from CIO.  And it sounds like you guys could definitely use a new plan.

[dalia]

I agree with the above post. I guess sometimes it's easy to think of any crying as cio but there is a big difference between being there and helping them through a transition and just putting earplugs in while they scream.

[dancingnancy97]

I agree with the two posts above.  You have to find a solution that works for *your* family.  And having a little bit of crying or fussing while you help them isn't the same as CIO.  Have you read Elizabeth Pantley's No Cry Sleep Solution for Toddlers and Preschoolers? We're not very good at actually *sticking* to anything around here, but I've used a few of the techniques in there to get us through some rough spots (like screaming and crying at bedtime even with co-sleeping) until things calm down again. 

[sharr610]

Thanks everyone!  I do not advocate CIO.  But I know good people who used "gentler" modified versions of it that, while they have never been my cup of tea, make me wonder at times like these.

So, DS is the only one not sleeping well/getting enough sleep in general.  Its been since DD came along, but actually, he dropped his nap early on.  I tried for about 8 weeks to get him back on it, and did, but it took an hour every day of me holding him down, screaming to get it to happen.  That, or a spontaneously long car trip, neither of which are practical/humane for either of us.

So since he doesn't nap, bedtime is a piece of cake, but he always wakes up at night and always comes in our room.  We have a king bed, but the reason we moved him out of it at 2 is that he became pretty mobile in his sleep, rolling all over the bed and with people around him, none of us, even him, were sleeping well.  As you can see, this is particularly rough with a babe in bed.  He being in bed with us just doesn't work so great at this point.  

I really just want him to be rested.  The thing that was alluring about the conversation with the other mamas was the line of "our kids deserve

good sleep.  And I just SO feel that way with DS.  He deserves a good night sleep.  It doesn't need to be through CIO, but it needs to happen.  I guess I worry about DD now as well as she is a tough napper already and I don't want her to grow up tired like her brother.

Ideas?  I've read Pantly and Sleepless in America.  We create nice, dark, calming, routine based sleep environments.  I have a daily quiet time in bed with stories and dim lighting, but no one sleeps.  We do all we can to make it easy for everyone to get sleep minus enough outdoor exercise.  I should probably be more hardcore about that, but its just a PITA this time of year in the PNW.

[D_McG]

how many hours is he sleeping at night?  Why do you think he's tired?  I mean like - does he not sleep well after he comes in your room?  What do you think the problem is?  I mean when my son comes in it doesn't seem to affect his sleep. He just wanders in and is back to sleep 30 seconds later.  I guess I'm just trying to get an impression of what's going on w/you guys.

[sharr610]

He gets about 12 total, which would seem fine, but it seems restless.  Its not the coming into our room that makes him seem tired, its the waking behavior.  The stumbling, over tired craziness, the fact that his preschool teachers and other mamas say, "He's so sweet, but he just seems SO tired."  

[D_McG]

Does it seem that coming in is disturbing him though?  Like is he awake for a long time after he comes in?  Is he very restless when he comes in?  KWIM?

I guess I am wondering if he seems more comfortable in his own bed.  Or if you think his overall sleep quality is poor (snoring?) .

[sharr610]

Well, it does disturb his sleep to get up, but generally, once he's in there, he's ok, although I do worry about his comfort down there(its just a thick blanket folded over with some warm blankets over it and a pillow. Honestly, he's sleeping with the dogs!).  I think the biggest problem with his fatigue is no napping.  There is no snoring or other physical signs that would cause bad sleep.

Sorry, I know this is all over the place.  I get this way about his sleep.  Its so hard to see him tired!

[D_McG]

Sleep is so important!  I hope you find a solution soon.  It sounds like he does need a nap if the 12 at night is not enough.  But I know here anyway a nap meant a later bedtime which didn't really help anything.  

[hippymama23]

I hope you are getting enough sleep.  Being a parent is so hard. So much research. So many decisions.  Right now my 7 month old is crying, DH (is that the abbrev. for husband? what does "D" stand for? Devoted:0) Anyway, I nursed him to sleep after he woke up since falling asleep at 9:00 pm and no afternoon nap since I had a baby free afternoon.  Dh is trying to calm him right now but I know the boob is what he wants.  I feel like the babe has me on a short lease.  He is the boss.  Well, I hope you find a solution and some peace of mind.  The mom guilty monster is the worst...at my mom guilt monster is starting to act up now because I'd rather finish my response here and finish my glass of wine.  At least I got a few sips and a couple of sentences! 

Peace & Poetry,

memomuse

[texmati]

I haven't read all the responses, and my son is only 16 mos old; so please take it with a grain of salt.

I don't think you can 'train' a person to be an independent or co-dependent sleeper. Or even that all people/kids will STTN at some point. For every mom patting herself on the back for CIO, there's another who tried it and it didn't work. And for every mom who credit's cosleeping for having a 'great sleeper' there's a family like ours! My son still wakes lots of times a night; and frankly, I just think he is that way. I also am a 'poor sleeper'-- I wake easily, have a hard time going to sleep and I always have. My sister sleeps like a rock and always has. All you can control is our repsonse to your kids sleep 'personality'.

I think you could/should def try to manage his naps, sleep schedule, etc so he's not so tired during the day. But feeling guilty about not CIO-- I wouldn't bother. IMO it wouldn't have changed your son's sleeping habit-- only his relationship with you.

[malayasmommy]

"I don't think you can 'train' a person to be an independent or co-dependent sleeper. Or even that all people/kids will STTN at some point. For every mom patting herself on the back for CIO, there's another who tried it and it didn't work. And for every mom who credit's cosleeping for having a 'great sleeper' there's a family like ours! My son still wakes lots of times a night; and frankly, I just think he is that way. I also am a 'poor sleeper'-- I wake easily, have a hard time going to sleep and I always have. My sister sleeps like a rock and always has. All you can control is our repsonse to your kids sleep 'personality'."

Thank you for this thread.  My DD just turned 3, and 4-5 nights a week she's awake for 2-3 hours in the middle of the night and is very irregular with her naptimes.  We've been trying to figure this out--trying out a new routine, trying to go places to let her get out energy (we are in Minnesota--4 degrees for a high tomorrow--not exactly "going outside to play" kind of weather), but nothing's working and the road to insanity is getting shorter and shorter.  I HATE that she is so tired and crabby, I hate that *I* am so tired and crabby, and in this desperation I feel like we've made a mistake with our sleep choices.  Yet when I'm thinking clearer, I absolutely agree with the quote above.  I would be here if I let her cry it out too--it's just part of who she is.  I'm glad I got this reminder, it's helping on a day when the only thing I want in this world is a decent nights sleep...