Consistent mirror writing on the back of the paper only - why and how do I help her stop?

[dbsam]

I’m not sure if this should go in the ‘Learning at School’ or ‘Special Needs’ forum…

Is this something to be concerned about?  (I am...the teachers are not.)

My daughter is 6.5yo and in first grade.  When writing on the back of a page, she starts from the right side instead of the left and writes everything backwards – a perfect mirror image.  When corrected, she will cry and argue that she is writing the correct way.  Besides being wrong, it is affecting her grades because every answer she writes on the back of the page is counted wrong.  e.g.  They have a weekly spelling test on ten words; three of which are written on the back page.  So, even if she spells them all correctly (well, the words on the back are correctly backwards) she is starting with a 70%.  She does this for letters and numbers.

She’s had two first grade teachers this year; neither was concerned.  The first teacher said she was being stubborn.  The second teacher said ‘it is no big deal and hopefully she will recognize what she is doing and stop’.

Any advice?  I point it out to her at home and make her change it.  They do not point it out at school, they simply mark it as wrong.

p.s. When younger, my daughter would sometimes mirror write on the front page too; but now it is only the back page and it is all the time on the back page.  My daughter has epilepsy, sensory issues, OCD and general quirkiness but I don’t think her dx’s would cause this.  Although, her seizures occur in the section of the brain that controls speech and I've read that mirror writing can be caused by atypical language formation in the brain.

TIA

[Emmeline II]

If they are going to penalize her for doing it then they should be "concerned". My ds (also 6.5) has behavior issues and if he did something like that his teacher would ask why we thought he was doing it.

It has come up on the school board many times that sometimes children will absolutely not take the parent's word over the teacher's. I would tell the teacher that you need to determine if this is a medical concern related to her seizures, or if she just doesn't understand that it is wrong because the teacher has not corrected her. It is a simple thing for the teacher to try correcting her for awhile.

One week my ds wrote most of his spelling test backwards; for him, it was just a phase he was going through since he liked seeing the words appear correctly when held to a mirror.

[dbsam]

Originally Posted by Emmeline II 

If they are going to penalize her for doing it then they should be "concerned". 

I agree.

 

Originally Posted by Emmeline II 

I would tell the teacher that you need to determine if this is a medical concern related to her seizures, or if she just doesn't understand that it is wrong because the teacher has not corrected her. It is a simple thing for the teacher to try correcting her for awhile.

Good point.  This morning I asked the teacher to please correct her in class.  I also asked if she could continue to do her work on both sides of the paper but take tests on the front side only but was told 'no'.  I didn't want her penalized when she knows the answer but writes it backwards. They feel she needs to learn to do it correctly - I understand.  However, if we determine it is a result of the seizures I will ask again.

 

[laohaire]

I clicked on this thread because DD also mirror writes, and while I've not noticed her doing this on the back of the paper, often there is some reason I could see that triggered the mirror writing (for example, having a crowded space on the right side of the page, so she starts from the left to better control the remaining space).

It's my guess that her mirror writing stems from something very perceptive - she apparently SEES very well, and has noticed that when looking "through" the back of a paper, the letters are all pointed the other way. So she's keeping things consistent, and this is honestly something you might actually appreciate and be impressed by. It is very perceptive of her.

I'm a homeschooler, so I don't know how to deal with teachers. I would take this particular thing into my own hands and work on this myself.

I'd have to think about this some more, but first I'd think of games that require knowledge of left and right. Is she right handed or left handed? In Kindergarten, we were taught "I write with my right" which is helpful. DD is left-handed, so I made one up for her "My left is my best." In the car, sometimes we ask her whether we should turn left or right (for a route she knows well). She has to think about it and she's not right 100% of the time, but she generally is getting the idea for left vs right, and the idea that they are different.

Make a sheet like the one she gets at school (even ask for copies if you want, or just recreate a similar setup). The back of the page has the last three spelling words. BEFORE SHE BEGINS, have her draw an arrow at the top of the page that points to the right. I'm thinking it would be best to then flip the page and draw another arrow pointing to the right, right away, before she goes back to the first page (but alternatively, she could complete page 1, and then on page 2 make her first step to do this arrow). Point out to her that the arrow she draws on the back side looks like it's pointing a different way than the one she drew on the front side if she were to see through the paper. Pointing that out might help her understand this and disregard her urge to make them point in what she sees as the same direction.

And then she writes the words going in the direction of the arrow.

At home, if she mirrors the second page, first just give her feedback on the words themselves ignoring the mirroring. She must feel frustrated, and it really sucks to be told you are all wrong when you actually know the words well. Did she write the words? Did she spell them correctly? If yes, note that so she can feel good. If not, I'd actually ignore it for now. The point is just to acknowledge her effort so she doesn't feel like giving up. (I'm not an overpraiser, I promise, but something that is clearly frustrating to a kid needs extra grease). If she mirror writes, tell her "great, now just write them IN REVERSE" and this will be perfect.

If it helps for her to think about the letters being backwards on the back of the page, let her. What I'm trying to say is, a typical instinct would be to tell her she's writing it backwards, but she does not see it that way, she thinks she's writing the correct way. If it helps to just say "listen, on the back of the page you write the other way" (even if you don't see it like that) then that works. Later she will figure out that you write the same way on both sides, but meet her at her current perspective for now.

I don't know if I'd try anything with the teachers - it would depend on your daughter's feelings about the grades, I guess. If she didn't really care, I would just let it be and work on it at home and not have a thing to say about the 70%. If she cared a little, I'd just tell her not to worry about it - that you are pleased with her work and you can see she is doing better than the teachers are giving her credit for. If she cared a lot, and working with her at home didn't have quick results, I'd go to bat and try to get the teachers to give feedback on the spot or give her partial credit or the opportunity to verbally spell the words she got wrong or something.

[dbsam]

Originally Posted by laohaire 

It's my guess that her mirror writing stems from something very perceptive - she apparently SEES very well, and has noticed that when looking "through" the back of a paper, the letters are all pointed the other way. So she's keeping things consistent, and this is honestly something you might actually appreciate and be impressed by. It is very perceptive of her.

This could be it!  Last night while arguing with her that writing backwards was wrong...she was getting frustrated with me and said 'look' and showed me through the page. I was too frustrated to really listen to her.

I'm not sure if this is relevant, but in all her testing done by psychologists and neurologists they always comment how really well she does with visuospatial processing and organization.   Add to that her OCD need for order (her idea of order; doesn't always look like order to anyone else) might be the reason she is writing this way.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by laohaire 

I don't know if I'd try anything with the teachers - it would depend on your daughter's feelings about the grades, I guess. If she didn't really care, I would just let it be and work on it at home and not have a thing to say about the 70%. If she cared a little, I'd just tell her not to worry about it - that you are pleased with her work and you can see she is doing better than the teachers are giving her credit for. If she cared a lot, and working with her at home didn't have quick results, I'd go to bat and try to get the teachers to give feedback on the spot or give her partial credit or the opportunity to verbally spell the words she got wrong or something. 

She's never cared about the grades.  But recently my husband has been talking to her about grades; trying to motivate her...and now she is getting a little upset about them. 

Thank you for all the ideas too.

[laohaire]

I strongly recommend this book:

Right brained kids in a left brained world

[pregnant@40]

My son is 6.25, about 1/4 the kids in the class "mirror write" (including my child), and our teacher instructed the parents to do nothing about it. She said that we could say something like, "oh, you're doing mirror writing again" in a casual way, but to NOT make a big deal of it. It is a normal developmental phase. Now my son often recognizes when he does this, and sometimes corrects himself.

[dbsam]

Originally Posted by pregnant@40 

My son is 6.25, about 1/4 the kids in the class "mirror write" (including my child), and our teacher instructed the parents to do nothing about it. She said that we could say something like, "oh, you're doing mirror writing again" in a casual way, but to NOT make a big deal of it. It is a normal developmental phase. Now my son often recognizes when he does this, and sometimes corrects himself.

The teachers said they've seen children mirror write some words/numbers and I agree with you that I would let that go.  However, both teachers said they've never seen a child write correctly on the front page and completely mirrored on the back side of the page - every time she writes.  But they agree with you because they feel she will figure it out in time and are doing nothing. 
 

[PikkuMyy]

So if everyone agrees that it's normal and will fade over time, and she knows how to spell the words, then they need to either give her only front-page papers to work on, or grade her correctly if she mirror writes on the back.

It's not fair to create a situation in which they know she will mirror write and then punish her for it.

I assume that you have either an IEP or 504 plan. I would add an addendum to that, addressing the mirror-writing and putting in an accomodation for it.

[dbsam]

Originally Posted by PikkuMyy 

I assume that you have either an IEP or 504 plan. I would add an addendum to that, addressing the mirror-writing and putting in an accomodation for it.

 We do not.  She has not needed an IEP or 504 so far.

[pregnant@40]

I agree, it is completely unfair for them to penalize this. It's upsetting to hear this, particularly since she already has multiple diagnoses in addition. These teachers need to listen to you.

Originally Posted by PikkuMyy 

So if everyone agrees that it's normal and will fade over time, and she knows how to spell the words, then they need to either give her only front-page papers to work on, or grade her correctly if she mirror writes on the back.

It's not fair to create a situation in which they know she will mirror write and then punish her for it.

I assume that you have either an IEP or 504 plan. I would add an addendum to that, addressing the mirror-writing and putting in an accomodation for it.

[melissa17s]

Originally Posted by dbsam 

Originally Posted by pregnant@40 

My son is 6.25, about 1/4 the kids in the class "mirror write" (including my child), and our teacher instructed the parents to do nothing about it. She said that we could say something like, "oh, you're doing mirror writing again" in a casual way, but to NOT make a big deal of it. It is a normal developmental phase. Now my son often recognizes when he does this, and sometimes corrects himself.

The teachers said they've seen children mirror write some words/numbers and I agree with you that I would let that go.  However, both teachers said they've never seen a child write correctly on the front page and completely mirrored on the back side of the page - every time she writes.  But they agree with you because they feel she will figure it out in time and are doing nothing. 
 

We were told the same thing about ds inverting letters and numbers.  He is 4th grade and still does.  He has epilepsy and it effects the writing/ reading parts of his brain mostly and he has now been dx with dyslexia.  Mirror writing is ok and normal at early elementary, but should be a concern after 2nd grade.  

Ds goes to OT and does the "writing without tears" program to help him better understand letter formation and to make associations between letters and sounds.  Previously, he would not write his letters with the standard top down and left to write, each letter had a pattern that only makes sense to him (OT is trying to break habit of starting at middle or bottom of letter).   One of the activities the OT did with with ds was mirror writing, but she made him do the mirror writing with his non-dominate hand (left) and correct writing with the dominate at the same time.  Just an aside, he could not tell his left from his right hand sometimes when we began OT, but OT is also working on right left; I was not surprised because he would wear his shoes on the wrong feet and not notice.  

I think you should save some writing samples for the neuro, if she is still doing this when you have your next appointment.  If it is a medical concern, then they may give you advice or  a referral.  If she is still doing this in a year, really follow up with the teachers and the neurologist.  

[dbsam]

Melissa17S,

I was considering getting the 'Writing w/out Tears' program but was afraid we would have no time to fit it in.  Her school day is long and she has nightly homework.  Last year she was in a Montessori school and they focused on writing the letters properly and she wrote them carefully and beautifully.  (At the beginning she needed a lot of correction because she prefers to start from the bottom.).  At this school, they do not care about form; only the end result.  So as long as her letters look fine it doesn't matter how she gets there.  As a result, she's thrown out proper form and created her own way of writing letters.  I correct her when she is doing homework but it becomes a fight.  She is already tired and says the teacher doesn't care which way she writes the letters.  And as EmmilineII mentioned above, sometimes the teacher's opinion trumps mine in my dd's eyes - especially when my dd believes the teacher agress with her.

It's a good idea to take writing samples to the neuro.

Thanks

[melissa17s]

dbsam,  We have really liked the Writing without Tears, but ds is sometimes resistant.  I can not figure out, if he does not like the activity, the OT, or is just tired.   On the nights ds has OT, I do not make him do homework; he has seizures when he is too tired, so we do not push him.  His sp.ed. teacher has been really happy with his work performance since he has been working on writing.  It is now readable, so I feel we are getting positive results.  

When you talk to your dd about writing, have your referenced how it was done at the previous school?  Ask her how did Ms./Mr. teacher make letters?  Maybe it will jog her memory in a fond way?

[dbsam]

Originally Posted by melissa17s 

When you talk to your dd about writing, have your referenced how it was done at the previous school?  Ask her how did Ms./Mr. teacher make letters?  Maybe it will jog her memory in a fond way?

Mrs "L" taught writing and phonics at their old school and my children loved her.  In the past, just saying 'Would Mrs L approve of that writing?"  was enough to make to my children laugh, say 'no' and happily make corrections.  But I stopped saying it when they started responding...but this teacher doesn't care how we write.  I need to try bringing up Mrs L again. 

It was great to have the one-on-one instruction...for all the children.  No one was singled out and everyone benefited from the individualized instruction.  Their new school is too large to provide this opportunity.

[RiverTam]

It sounds like it's really a Visual-Spatial thing. She sees the paper and the writing on it as a three-dimensional object. She's putting the words on the back of the page in such a way that they are correctly oriented if you were looking at it from the front and could see it. She sounds like she is using a consistent front-back orientation for the paper, as if it were three dimensional, rather than two dimensional. She's not wrong. A piece of paper is a three dimensional object. We just treat it as two dimensional when we write on it, and treat writing as two dimensional.  

Maybe if you explain the difference between three dimensional objects and two dimensional objects, and explain that we always treat writing as two dimensional, so that whatever page if facing you is the front, it might make sense to her.

[Tjej]

What are the lines like on the page?  Is there that bar on the left to indicate a margin?  Is it on the right on the back?  It has been a while since I used notebook paper, but that might be the problem.  I get what your DD is doing and I think explaining that other people always read from left to right might help.  Somehow helping her understand that not everyone can read either way.

Tjej

[PikkuMyy]

I use Handwriting Without Tears with all of my students and I highly recommend it. Writing letters without the correct form, no matter how they look at the end, causes the writing to take longer, and causes hand fatigue.

Perhaps her teachers would be willing to include that in her school program so you don't have to do it at night when she is tired?

I don't think this one issue is enough to warrant requesting a 504 but I think you should at least start with a meeting with her teacher to discuss the issue and find a solution that is right for your daughter.

[The4OfUs]

Originally Posted by dbsam 

But they agree with you because they feel she will figure it out in time and are doing nothing. 
 

But they're not doing nothing; they're marking her off on spelling tests...that's doing something, and not helping her avoid the something, to boot.  Which sucks eggs.

The PPs all had great advice on the why she's probably doing it, and how to help her fix it, but I would definitely approach the teachers and say they can't have it both ways; either it's not an issue being addressed/corrected and shouldn't be corrected/marked off on tests, or it is an issue to be corrected and she receives (gentle, encouraging) instruction on it.

If she has to do the front/back thing, could she have 2 pieces of paper for tests so that when she does the "back" one it's blank on the front so she doesn't see any other letters written through it?  So it's like 2 "fronts" to her?   Then they could staple them together or something?  I dunno, just throwing that out there.  
 

[melissa17s]

Ds had OT last night.  It went really well, and one of the reasons was because the OT introduced special cushion for ds to sit on.  It was a rubber disk that kind of look like  a smooshed ball. It made him really sit at attention.  He did his work with out complaining and only made 1 mistake on 9 letter writing worksheets.   I requested she get on for us for ds to take to school, and she said sitting on the big yoga/pilates balls is a similar effect.  When I asked ds what he thought of it, he said he was just more comfortable.  He also explained that in the special ed. room they had better chairs than in the classroom.  He said he was often uncomfortable in his chair.  

Although it was not really on my mind until last night, the chairs might also effect the writing concentration and quality.  This is similar to the one ds used last night: link