New and better title: The emotionally delayed vs the emotionally fragile child

[Tigerle]

I’m quoting myself because I thought this deserves its own thread:

 We are working hard on self-regulation. It's my one learning goal for DS for the rest of the preschool year, at the end of which I want them to assent to early entry in the K pullout program. My aunt (mom's cousin, really) came for a rare visit. She remembered the extremely advanced, mature-seeming and well behaved little boy from almost two years ago and was quite disconcerted with his rigidity, inflexibility, overreaction to sudden touch and tendency to melt down at the slightest frustration. She remembered hearing similar things about her sister's little boy (my age now, but living in another country, so I never met those cousins) and described him as "intellectually so advanced just like yours, but emotionally quite delayed". Whoops. I explained about development of prefrontal lobes http://eideneurolearningblog.blogspot.com/2006/06/blessings-and-burdens-of-high-iq.html and asynchrony but there is no question that we have our work cut out for us. It's sobering to get another perspective like that.

And I hope it’s okay to quote joensally comforting words:

 

Tigerle:  meh re your aunt's comment.  Emotionally-immature is a catch-all, broad term.  I think that what's going on with some of these kids is a subtle, confusing interplay of a bunch of variables that look like "emotional immaturity."  Try being in a body that feels things more acutely and can't filter environmental stimuli, in a brain that intuits nuance and emotion, with an imagination that can envision all kinds of scenarios that could be extremely exciting or extremely scary, and then try to have a muted response to your world. 

I'm glad you're reading Smart but Scattered.  It's a great book, IMO.  AP includes doing what your child needs.  I think of it as being their prefrontal cortex by proxy :).  I'm loaning them my common sense or judgement when they can't access their own.  Over time, they take the con more often (sorry, I live with sci-fi fans). 

So that you don’t have to head right over, quoting from the above link to the Eides’ blog:

The figure below shows that the highest IQ kids had the lowest prefrontal actvation in the early elementary school years, while cortical connections really turned on the gas (passing mildly high and average IQ kids) heading into the teenage years.

 And according to the Eides, it’s not just the prefrontal cortex – there is also the parietal lobe to consider.

In fact, the other lobe of interest is the parietal lobe- that wonderful meeting place for shifting attention, spatial representation, and imagery, where primary sensory and motor areas converge to convey a sense of space and location based on cues of sight, sound, touch, position, and balance. Hmmm. Now does this sound familiar? Getting in trouble for leaning on other kids, a poor sense of 'space', visual or auditory distractibility, inattentiveness, or hyperactivity? Some people will lump it with the attention deficit disorders, while for others, this is sensory integration or sensory processing dysfunction. But by profile, this is more the parietal pattern than frontal (sustained attention) - so sensory processing disorder is a better descriptive term.

Yeah, that’s us.

So, is this or isn’t this a delay? And if this is how my child strikes a childless, but kindly disposed relative who is perfectly aware of the connection to giftedness and the way it runs in our family, what chance does he have with a teacher? And what is there to do? And how much emphasis to place on it? I read a lot these days about children who are considered by their schools to have no learning goals but emotional ones, and it gets my goat up, but just waiting isn't an option either, is it? I really like the idea of loaning my child my frontal lobe, but I#m not there to do it in school...

I think I’m rambling – the worst thing was that the word my aunt used (we weren’t speaking English) was closer to “emotinally retarded”. It really shocked me.

[loraxc]

I read a lot these days about children who are considered by their schools to have no learning goals but emotional ones,

Such as mine? (Did you see my response about DD's new IEP, which is exactly this?) Sigh.

[KCMichigan]

That makes sense.

One of my DD is suspected gifted---but emotionally delayed. She had an IEP from age 3-5 and continues to struggle w/ SPD (she got OT for it from age 2-5 both privately and through the schools).

She has been able to read since before she was 4, can mentally add/subtract, has a vocabulary that is at least 3+years her age, asks deep questions on why and how things work....but is emotionally 'quirky'. Same child did not play with others until last year, still puts things in her mouth, twirls and toe walks under stress, has a short attention span, dislikes crowds/noise,  cries easily, fatigues quickly, is very very sensitive (can not listen to or watch anything that has tension in it), and is only interested is gentle play (lets make cakes, be fairies, etc) or science (bodies, dinosaurs, states, etc).

It is really hard sometimes to put the emotionally fragile sensitive child with the intelligent creative thinker together in the perception of the same child.

She has had some great  PreK teachers that 'get' her. I hope we continue to be so lucky.

Next year we start K (did not make the cut off this year and there are NO exceptions) and academically she and her twin are 2-3 grades levels ahead. Socially the above mentioned DD is about 1-2 years behind. Her twin is age appropriate emotionally/socially.

It will be interesting to say the least. Our current area does not do GIEPs.

[Tigerle]

Originally Posted by loraxc 

I read a lot these days about children who are considered by their schools to have no learning goals but emotional ones,

Such as mine? (Did you see my response about DD's new IEP, which is exactly this?) Sigh.

Yes, that was one of the recent postings in a simlar vein (by no means the only one) and for some reason it upset me very much on your behalf. Being a government lawyer, I think  it is the underhandedness of how this GIEP came into being that is additionally revolting to me.

Apart from the backstory, I imagine from your recent, related thread that you wouldn't have found, say, one objective about dealing with frustration inappropriate, but ALL of them, and NOTHING about areas abou academic growth, strenghts to be developed?

What is it about people that the intensity of these children seems to completely block them from seeing their strengths? Or do they just not care? Or is it us who are somehow blinded?

[Tigerle]

Originally Posted by KCMichigan 

It is really hard sometimes to put the emotionally fragile sensitive child with the intelligent creative thinker together in the perception of the same child.

 Socially the above mentioned DD is about 1-2 years behind. Her twin is age appropriate emotionally/socially. 

 That is a great way of putting it. Thank you.

I always think your posts are so interesting because you are in the unique position of being able to observe what is "just" giftedness and otherwise age appropriate and what is an actual delay. still, it shouldn't stop your quirky DD from getting appropriate accomodation academically, right?

I am so worried other's perception of his being emotionally delayed (I won't quibble with his being socially delayed, i can see that he is) will stop his preschool teachers from accepting him early into the K pullout and and consequently elementary schol from accepting him into 1st - they don't have to accept the preschool's opinion, but usually they do. At least it will make things a lot harder. And I am scared to pop the question at this point!

.

[LauraLoo]

What is it about people that the intensity of these children seems to completely block them from seeing their strengths? Or do they just not care? Or is it us who are somehow blinded?

I think children like these really surprise people -- a child that becomes emotionally upset about something upsetting, rather than just letting it roll off their shoulders.  My ds, when just 6, cried because he saw someone drop their lunch tray and food spilled all over the other child and the floor - he just knew it must be horribly upsetting to the other child.  People were kind of astounded that he'd have such an overt reaction, rather than do what most other kids would have done -- laugh, ignore it, or maybe help the other child.

I often get raised eyebrows because both my dc's are very adamant about what they like and don't like -- and they've usually thought whatever it is through so it might take a bit of convincing, with good support, to sway them.  A lot of other kids are more malleable and will just go with the flow.   The other day I got a note from ds' teacher because he turned down an invitation to play with another child.  I don't know the circumstances, but why do adults feel like kids need to play with just anyone just because?  I don't befriend just anyone, and I certainly wouldn't make time in my busy schedule to go out for lunch with someone I didn't like.  But apparently this isn't "typical" behavior and can be seen as emotionally delayed.  As adults it's called choosing your friends.

In any case, I don't always see some of the perceived "delays" as delays, just as unusual for a child to think or react the way they do.   Not sure if I'm making myself clear.
 

[serenbat]

What is it about people that the intensity of these children seems to completely block them from seeing their strengths? Or do they just not care? Or is it us who are somehow blinded?

How much is the situation just not appropriate for the child at this time?

[loraxc]

, I imagine from your recent, related thread that you wouldn't have found, say, one objective about dealing with frustration inappropriate, but ALL of them, and NOTHING about areas abou academic growth, strenghts to be developed?

Yes, exactly. I'm upset about it too. I haven't even gone into the many other ways in which they violated state law.

What makes me extra-nuts is that I think DD is being judged on last year's behavior. How long do we have to dwell on the meltdowns she had when there was a sub and she was 5 years old?

[Tigerle]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

What is it about people that the intensity of these children seems to completely block them from seeing their strengths? Or do they just not care? Or is it us who are somehow blinded?

How much is the situation just not appropriate for the child at this time?

Would you elaborate? I am afraid I don't get what you're trying to say...
 

[serenbat]

Possible reason why other do not see the child in the proper context---

Really what I had asked- does the situation play a role here? Is it not a correct fit for the child at this time?

Is it about being with others and not being on the same level factor into how the child is "looked" at- perceived/blinders of others?

[Tjej]

Is a really sensitive child emotionally delayed?  I always felt it was more of an advanced issue.  I mean, having the understsanding and empathy, but being in a little helpless body would be frustrating beyond anything.  I know my DD is intensely emotional and sensitive, alot like what you all describe, but I think of it more as asynchrony between EQ and bodily capabilities, not a delay.

I guess that when a child tantrums and pitches fits and is older (6 or 7) I do find it immature, but being sensitive doesn't seem immature to me.  If that makes sense. 

Tjej

[serenbat]

I guess that when a child tantrums and pitches fits and is older (6 or 7) I do find it immature

is it only immature if there is no "sensitive/emotional" issue?

failing to see the connection or the disconnection here

[RiverTam]

Originally Posted by Tjej 

Is a really sensitive child emotionally delayed?  I always felt it was more of an advanced issue.  I mean, having the understsanding and empathy, but being in a little helpless body would be frustrating beyond anything.  I know my DD is intensely emotional and sensitive, alot like what you all describe, but I think of it more as asynchrony between EQ and bodily capabilities, not a delay.

I guess that when a child tantrums and pitches fits and is older (6 or 7) I do find it immature, but being sensitive doesn't seem immature to me.  If that makes sense. 

Tjej

I think we're talking about two different things. Gifted kids can often be very sensitive and are subject to the "Overexcitabilities," but when I say by kid has a social/emotional delay that's not what I mean.

I mean that he has a noticeable delay in the development of his emotional self-control, decision making, and social judgment. His behavior is right on target for a kid who is about 1-2 years younger than he is. He is "young for his age."  At the same time, while it's developing slowly, it is developing. I have no doubt that those skills will come in with time. He will grow up to be a normal function adult. Actually, he'll grow up to be a gifted functioning adult.  The type of  delay I'm talking about can make some gifted kids look like they have ADHD. (And ADHD has been specifically raised with my son. Our psychologist disagrees.)

I try not to worry about it. It's just a like a late growth spurt.  Some kids take longer to hit their milestones than others. I advocate as best I can with the school.

[RiverTam]

What is it about people that the intensity of these children seems to completely block them from seeing their strengths? Or do they just not care? Or is it us who are somehow blinded?

My son's Montessori teacher (who he's had for three years and who I love) does care about DS1's strengths, she just doesn't feel like she can do much to help him. She often feels like there isn't much academic that she can teach him, or that he needs. At the same time, she really feels that he needs to improve his social skills.

It's a difference in goals. My focus tends to be on developing the strengths as far as they'll go. The school's focus tends to be on making sure that each kid has a hit a minimum level in all target areas so that the kid is ready for the next grade. That means they check off all of boxes for academic level for DS pretty quickly and then start focusing on the stuff where he struggles.

[KCMichigan]

Originally Posted by RiverTam 

Originally Posted by Tjej 

Is a really sensitive child emotionally delayed?  I always felt it was more of an advanced issue.  I mean, having the understsanding and empathy, but being in a little helpless body would be frustrating beyond anything.  I know my DD is intensely emotional and sensitive, alot like what you all describe, but I think of it more as asynchrony between EQ and bodily capabilities, not a delay.

I guess that when a child tantrums and pitches fits and is older (6 or 7) I do find it immature, but being sensitive doesn't seem immature to me.  If that makes sense. 

Tjej

I think we're talking about two different things. Gifted kids can often be very sensitive and are subject to the "Overexcitabilities," but when I say by kid has a social/emotional delay that's not what I mean.

I mean that he has a noticeable delay in the development of his emotional self-control, decision making, and social judgment. His behavior is right on target for a kid who is about 1-2 years younger than he is. 

I try not to worry about it. It's just a like a late growth spurt.  Some kids take longer to hit their milestones than others. I advocate as best I can with the school.

An emotional, intense, sensitive child IS A DIFFERENT thing than a child that is emotionally/socially delayed. 

An emotional, intense child can have age-appropriate behaviors and hits social/emotional milestones---but just be 'intense'. It is more a personality trait.

Emotionally/socially delayed is when the child is not at the same social/emotional level as other children at the same chronological age. Rather social milestones are not being met in the appropriate time frame. Their personalities can range from social extroverts to introverts and very lethargic or active.

BOTH (sensitive/intense kids and socially/emotionally delayed kids) can be gifted. Usually the intense/sensitive kids are more the 'typical' personalities you think of--- but that is a broad generalization of course and not all gifted kid will have that type of personality.

An example of an intense toddler would be a child that cries and screams when an adult does not understand what they are trying to communicate. It is an age appropriate response, but the intensity may be much stronger than most kids and they may tantrum more frequently, longer, and louder than average. Or the child persists in the same action over and over to the brink of obsessiveness (all toddlers are obsessive) until they master it. A child who WANTS and is aware of what he/she wants to do , but is physically incapable- frustration occurs.Many have unusual focus/attention for the age. Fear, anger, joy, etc are all ampilfied in intense kids. They seem to 'feel' each emotion strongly- no grey areas.

An example of a toddler with delayed social/emotional responses would be a child that does not make  appropriate eye contact when spoken to, does not protest when separated from familiar adults, does not grab/attempt to take things from other kids. Does not attempt to play with other children (parallel plays) past age 3 or 3.5.All those thing the toddler does NOT do are age-appropriate and expected at that age.

I use toddler because these were my two children at toddlerhood (age 1-2) and those were the 'warning' signs we had that DD1 had some social/emotional delays.

SPD can present itself in both intense kids and those w/ social delays as well. It is a separate concern- intense kids often get a dx of it due to their extreme responses to textures/tastes/noise/etc. But socially delayed kids also can struggle with SPD (often kids w/ Aspergers have a co-dx of SPD). Often as well they seek or avoid sensory input (spinning, flapping, bumping into things, or avoiding swings/wobbly bridges/kiddie rides) Often SPD kids have food or clothing concerns/struggles (beyond standard for age--- 2-6 yr olds are picky to begin with).

DD1 (as mentioned in my above post for having social delays) is very sensitive, but has actual inappropriate responses for her chronological age. She has not met milestones that would be expected for her age. has a SPD dx and have gotten therapy (OT/PT) for gross motor and social/emotional delays.

DD2 is emotionally intense, driven, and has always been that way. It is her personality- her responses may be dramatic and full of intense responses, but they are appropriate for her age. Actually she is fairly mature in her actions (takes care of other kids, has strong leadership skills, works well with students older than herself, applies advanced logic to her arguments etc). 

Both are suspected gifted (reading before age 4, very advanced language skills, etc) by two different sets of preschool teachers (different states even).

As for the post about appropriate situations. Please explain. Appropriate situations vary widely-- also something that a child does OK with one day may not be able to handle another day.

Edited by KCMichigan - 1/19/11 at 4:00pm

[loraxc]

This is interesting; I'm not really sure how I would characterize DD. Some days, I really do think she is emotionally delayed. Other days, not so much. In her case, part of the reason she freaks out so often is that she wants so much to be older than she is. She wants to be in charge and independent, and it drives her crazy that she's still 6. I'm always trying to think of ways to give her more responsibility--safely. Because--she WANTS the responsibility and thinks she can handle it...but she can't, necessarily. There is that ADHDish part of her that is still quite impulsive. Tricky mix, for sure.

As for socioemotional milestones, she has been all over the place with these. She did not play with other children much at all till late 4. However, she never hit another child that I can remember, and she is a loving, loyal, kind friend. She is good about sharing (except with her brother!) and is an excellent sport about losing, which can make her seem mature. However, heaven forbid you do something unfair while playing with her; all bets are off in that scenario. Etc.

Then there are things like the time her preschool teacher read The Giving Tree to the class and she became hysterical. The book upset her incredibly. In some ways, this was a very mature response; she clearly perceived the injustice of the story and was horrified (and could explain herself about this). But then she was a major distraction and problem because she couldn't stop sobbing.

[AshleighMach]

Originally Posted by KCMichigan 

That makes sense.

One of my DD is suspected gifted---but emotionally delayed. She had an IEP from age 3-5 and continues to struggle w/ SPD (she got OT for it from age 2-5 both privately and through the schools).

She has been able to read since before she was 4, can mentally add/subtract, has a vocabulary that is at least 3+years her age, asks deep questions on why and how things work....but is emotionally 'quirky'. Same child did not play with others until last year, still puts things in her mouth, twirls and toe walks under stress, has a short attention span, dislikes crowds/noise,  cries easily, fatigues quickly, is very very sensitive (can not listen to or watch anything that has tension in it), and is only interested is gentle play (lets make cakes, be fairies, etc) or science (bodies, dinosaurs, states, etc).

It is really hard sometimes to put the emotionally fragile sensitive child with the intelligent creative thinker together in the perception of the same child.

She has had some great  PreK teachers that 'get' her. I hope we continue to be so lucky.

Next year we start K (did not make the cut off this year and there are NO exceptions) and academically she and her twin are 2-3 grades levels ahead. Socially the above mentioned DD is about 1-2 years behind. Her twin is age appropriate emotionally/socially.

It will be interesting to say the least. Our current area does not do GIEPs.

This sounds very much like my DS. Aside from gentle play and sensitivity to others (here he is very much a little boy). He is very creative, and will make up stories and games on his own rather then communicate with other children. How did you go about getting her an IEP? DS is 3 and we are looking into having him tested due to his sensitivity with little things (cup and plate have to be in certain spot on the table, toys have to be in certain places or we have a meltdown), his tantrums (about that of a 2 year old), and he can never just except no (CONSTANT questions that he needs the answers to). But i was afraid of testing to early... 

[Greenmama2]

OK, I'm sorry this off-topic but I think The Giving Tree is completely inapropriate for a preschool setting. Your daughter is right, it is horrifying. It's unreasonable to read it to a group of young children and not expect at least one of them to react like that.

[Tjej]

Thank you all for the clarification.  I was mixing/confusing things.

Serenbat - Fair or not, I guess my distinction comes where it is a fit of rage in an older child versus just strong/overwhelming emotions that do not outright interfere with others.  But yeah, I was just expressing a random thought there, not properly tied into the discussion.  I was trying to say that I do see some immaturity sometimes, but that I usually lean toward sensitivity.  I see I was mixing them and not being clear.

Tjej

[physmom]

Thanks for clarifying the difference between the two.  I´ve been reading this thread but didn´t have a chance to respond until now.  DD definitely seems to fit into the intense category+sensory issues here.  She can definitely be obsessive and you just have to hear her tantrums when I go to the bathroom, or it´s every mentioned in conversation that someone else has to take her to the bathroom or I have to go to work.  Her separation anxiety is INSANE.  But she seems to be hitting milestones just fine, it´s just that she is intense and seems to be strongly affected by her environment (especially if there are a lot of people or it´s noisy or chaotic). Also the obessiveness about certain tasks fits to a T.

An example of an intense toddler would be a child that cries and screams when an adult does not understand what they are trying to communicate. It is an age appropriate response, but the intensity may be much stronger than most kids and they may tantrum more frequently, longer, and louder than average. Or the child persists in the same action over and over to the brink of obsessiveness (all toddlers are obsessive) until they master it. A child who WANTS and is aware of what he/she wants to do , but is physically incapable- frustration occurs. Unusual focus for the age.

An example of a toddler with delayed social/emotional responses would be a child that does not make  appropriate eye contact when spoken to, does not protest when separated from familiar adults, does not grab/attempt to take things from other kids. Does not attempt to play with other children (parallel plays) past age 3 or 3.5.All those thing the toddler does NOT do are age-appropriate and expected at that age.

I use toddler because these were my two children at toddlerhood (age 1-2) and those were the 'warning' signs we had that DD1 had some social/emotional delays.

SPD can present itself in both intense kids and those w/ social delays as well. It is a separate concern- intense kids often get a dx of it due to their extreme responses to textures/tastes/noise/etc. But socially delayed kids also can struggle with SPD (often kids w/ Aspergers have a co-dx of SPD).

DD´s like that too.  We have two DVDs that we really have to talk her through to avoid a tantrum (but she loves them and constantly asks for them!).  The Grinch is one and she gets extremely nervous when the Grinch is about to drop the sled full of presents so we have to remind her that his heart is going to grow and that he´ll get really strong so it won´t ful.  Afterwards she always berates him for not being careful. The other is a Kai Lan DVD where the conflict just lasts longer than normal.  We´ve just learned to skip it because it stresses her out too much.  Actually, during the other episodes on the DVD she yells at the TV the entire time if the characters don´t notice immediately if a character is upset/sad/scared. 

Thankfully, her books seem to be OK and not scary for her but there is something about DVDs that really freak her out (we´ve cut back a lot, though, which seems to help).  But then she´ll get stressed out by pictures on some of her puzzles too (there´s one when the kids on it were spilling something, I think...)! I can´t even imagine with the Giving Tree, though, that´s definitly NOT a book for preschoolers!!!

Originally Posted by loraxc 

This is interesting; I'm not really sure how I would characterize DD. Some days, I really do think she is emotionally delayed. Other days, not so much. In her case, part of the reason she freaks out so often is that she wants so much to be older than she is. She wants to be in charge and independent, and it drives her crazy that she's still 6. I'm always trying to think of ways to give her more responsibility--safely. Because--she WANTS the responsibility and thinks she can handle it...but she can't, necessarily. There is that ADHDish part of her that is still quite impulsive. Tricky mix, for sure.

As for socioemotional milestones, she has been all over the place with these. She did not play with other children much at all till late 4. However, she never hit another child that I can remember, and she is a loving, loyal, kind friend. She is good about sharing (except with her brother!) and is an excellent sport about losing, which can make her seem mature. However, heaven forbid you do something unfair while playing with her; all bets are off in that scenario. Etc.

Then there are things like the time her preschool teacher read The Giving Tree to the class and she became hysterical. The book upset her incredibly. In some ways, this was a very mature response; she clearly perceived the injustice of the story and was horrified (and could explain herself about this). But then she was a major distraction and problem because she couldn't stop sobbing.