New and better title: The emotionally delayed vs the emotionally fragile child - Page 2

[serenbat]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

What is it about people that the intensity of these children seems to completely block them from seeing their strengths? Or do they just not care? Or is it us who are somehow blinded?

How much is the situation just not appropriate for the child at this time?

Would you elaborate? I am afraid I don't get what you're trying to say...

Possible reason why other do not see the child in the proper context---

Really what I had asked- does the situation play a role here? Is it not a correct fit for the child at this time?

Is it about being with others and not being on the same level factor into how the child is "looked" at- perceived/blinders of others?

situation being setting, what they are doing-does this matter?

for some I guess not but I can see that others may be viewed as delayed if they are being observed by others- that's why I asked it

[quaz]

Originally Posted by Tjej 

Is a really sensitive child emotionally delayed?  I always felt it was more of an advanced issue.  I mean, having the understsanding and empathy, but being in a little helpless body would be frustrating beyond anything.  I know my DD is intensely emotional and sensitive, alot like what you all describe, but I think of it more as asynchrony between EQ and bodily capabilities, not a delay.

I guess that when a child tantrums and pitches fits and is older (6 or 7) I do find it immature, but being sensitive doesn't seem immature to me.  If that makes sense. 

Tjej

Sorry, I know you didn't mean anything negative, but we dealt with that perspective last year.

THAT was really what my daughter's teacher assumed from the beginning about my 7 year old daughter in class last year....that she was 6 or 7, so naturally her behavior indicated she was emotionally immature.

Never mind that there was no issue in K. Never mind that she was suddenly refusing to enter the classroom in the mornign. Never mind that she was so freaked out about a comment or two that the teacher made, that dd reached the conclusion that she was bad, and was going to end up in jail. Never mind she was now throwing extreme tantrums at home... it all must be because she was emotionally immature. *GROWL*

This was not emotional immaturity. This was emotional intensity, that had triggered high anxiety issues. It is no surprise that this year, with a new teacher, we have seen NO 'behavioral issues' as the past teacher would have labeled them.

This is a good article on the topic of emotional intensity and sensitive.

http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10241.aspx

 

The other article, that I used to love was via this link, but it seems dead. :-(  It talked about gifted and how they were 'intensitive', which is a combo of intense and sensitive.

http://www.qagtc.org.au/conf2005/QAGTC_intensitive.pdf

 

Tammy

[Tigerle]

Thanks Tammy for that link, I liked that article.

KCMichigan, that was, again such an interesting and informative post. Guess have to rethink DS' being socially delayed - starting around three, he did want to play cooperatively, but it only works if it is a good fit (somewhat older, verbal and easygoing girl) or highly structured by a grownup. Before, he'd just go away and find something to play for himself (or a grownup to talk to), or run away and cry (daycare!). Now he wants to play, but is easily overwhelmed and will get aggressive, particularly during transitions. There are definitely some issues there, but delayed is probably not the right word.

We have had two issues recently when DS melted down because he thought a passage in a book was too sad (in one instance, quite shocking the person who wanted to give the book to him). The other was a bedtime story I had picked specifically for being innocuous, about a kitty who comes to live with a little boy. Turns out there was one sentence about the kitten, after arriving in her new home, missing her mother and siblings until the little boy takes it to bed with him...if you identify with the kitten of course, an extremely scary situation...sol that would be intensity..

Another instance happened when I set DS up to play his favourite board game with my aunt - just before bedtime, so maybe not a brilliant move, but it worked very well until DS realized that he would not reach the last goal in the labyrinth with one move only (we only have got Junior Labyrinth, so it's actually to easy for him by now) and he stormed out of the room screaming. So that#s perfectionism 

[KCMichigan]

For clarification:

Here are some rough guidelines (some other lists vary, but this one is nice and clear) on social/emotional milestones for  2-5 yr olds. A child that is not meeting these goal by the time they turned the next age (for 3 yr old---meet goals by turning 4) then they may be considered socially/emotionally delayed. Usually to get therapy through the schools or for EI (early intervention) to offer support for social/emotional delays these milestones would not be met.

1-2yr old

• Have more interest in toys than in other children.
• Engage in solitary play.
• Share only when told to do so.
• Need a lot of guidance to share.
• Push and poke as ways of keeping and getting toys.
• Use touch as a way to interact with other children.
• Use words like "mine" and "no" when playing.
• Enjoy playing with parents and familiar adults.
• Like to show toys to you.
• Have fun playing games such as Pat-a-Cake or Ring Around the Rosy.
• May show a preference for one parent over another.

3yr old

Social and Emotional Development

• follows simple directions; enjoys helping with household tasks
• begins to recognize own limits — asks for help
• likes to play alone, but near other children
• does not cooperate or share well
• able to make choices between two things
• begins to notice other people's moods and feelings

4 yr old

Social and Emotional Development

• takes turns, shares, and cooperates
• expresses anger verbally rather than physically
• can feel jealousy
• may sometimes lie to protect herself, but understands the concept of lying
• enjoys pretending and has a vivid imagination

5 yr old

Social and Emotional Development

• distinguishes right from wrong, honest from dishonest, but does not recognize intent
• plays make-believe and dresses up
• mimics adults and seeks praise
• seeks to play rather than be alone; friends are important
• plays with both boys and girls but prefers the same sex
• wants to conform; may criticize those who do not

DD1 (social/emotional delay) is consistantly 1-2 yrs below her choronogical age for these milestone. She has gotten OT through the schools and we have done a LOT of social skills training here at home. 

Thanks Tigerle: I taught Spec.Ed before having kids so  I have a natural curiosity about 2E, Spec.Needs, Gifted, etc. =)  I also have been keen to advocate for both my DDs. Their needs are so different. People tend to see DD1 weaknesses (social) or her strengths (academic)---nothing inbetween. Frustrating since really BOTH are very important things to keep in mind when deciding what toys/places/trips/books, etc she will enjoy.

[loraxc]

Interestingly, those links would indicate DS is actually "ahead"--he's just about to turn 3, but is definitely at the 4yo stage there. No wonder he seems so different than DD was at this age. I actually do think he is sort of "gifted" in EQ. He also plays elaborate games with the 3 and 4yos at his daycare and has been for some time--DD was nowhere NEAR doing that at age almost-3 and basically just ignored other kids entirely.


The things I notice about DD that seem "delayed" are a lack of "sophistication" (hard time with sarcasm/even very mildteasing, no signs of wanting to be "cool," never judges other for being babyish, no concerns about acting babyish herself...in a way some of these are positives, of course), a tendency to still become extremely upset about minor things, the fact that she still gets VERY crazy. silly, and wound up on a regular basis, and a level of fear and sensitivity that are higher than her peers. This is changing, though--she's increasingly able to handle scary and upsetting storylines. Actually, I rather feel that she is on course there and that many other kids are artificially desensitized by too much media.

[AshleighMach]

KC Michigan thank you so much for posting that!! I really see now my DS(3 years 2 months) is more emotionally sensitive rather than delayed! He is pretty ahead according to your list (meets all of the guidlines for a 5 year old except seeks to play rather than be alone; friends are important). He gets very upset with change or disorder and has no sense of others feelings, wants or needs. Thank you for sharing!!! 

[Tigerle]

Sorry for ending my last post so abruptly; I happened to work on DH's machine and he needed to print something out Right Now. I can't remember what I wanted to add, though, I am all intrigued now by that list of milestones KCMichigan posted. I can identify areas of, um, growth on the 4 yo list and am glad to read that he's got until the end of this year to hit those milestones as he's newly four - sharing and cooperating with other children seem to be a problem (he does not seem to have grown much there during the last 2 years or so) and certainly expressing anger verbally rather than physically (I presume screaming does not count as "verbal"). Still liking to play by himself, checking out things, may be personality too I guess. The nosedive his behaviour has taken recently has made some things hard to assess for me. And it's hard to tell what's conscious and controlled behaviour rather than inability - we notice that he appears to be rather more in control than we thought now that we have started to introduce rewards and loss of privileges. I'm seriously thinking of docking off one minute off his favorite nature DVD (one episode a day) for each act of aggression I suffer, witness or hear about. Never thought it would come to this...

[quaz]

Here. I finally found it. This article is about

Intensitive! Intensities and Sensitivities in the Gifted

http://www.emcsd.org/ourpages/auto/2008/5/21/1211404489116/Intense%20and%20Sensitive.pdf

I don't recall if the article was good or not, but the title alone is probably the most apt description I have ever heard of my gifted kiddos.

[Casha'sMommy]

I'm really enjoying the INTENSITIVE article.

My IL's, to make a long story short, feel dd isn't gifted but rather that she has behavior problems that need to be resolved. It helps to gain some reassurance from articles like this one and it's handy to share with others;-)

THANKS for posting!

[Tigerle]

Very interesting article! I have read only parts so far, it is so long, but boy would I like some people to read that one. Will bookmark it. But but but - the hitting and shoving other children has got to stop too...

We've had a callback from the psych unit at Children's. Have been encouraged to just bring him in for a consultation. Am completely unsure how upfront to be about the whole gifted thing without immediately looking like "that mom" - I have let them know he seems "cognitively and verbally very advanced"...if he's in full form there is just no missing how unusual, for better and for worse, our child is....

[loraxc]

Thanks for the great article. It's like reading a personality profile of my DD. To heck with horoscopes or Meyers-Briggs!

[LynnS6]

Very interesting article. I liked the quote "But we must be careful not to equate emotional fragility with immaturity." I fear I'm doing that with our dd, and because of that I'm very afraid of grade acceleration for her.

Interestingly, I also have one child who was emotionally delayed for his age and one child who's emotionally intense and fragile. Dd gets outraged at injustices in the world, mourns the loss of things deeply, but she reads and understands social cues quite well. Ds, on the other  hand, could not identify emotions on faces at age 5. I actually bought a set of cards with kids' facial expressions on them to work with him on it. He did eventually get it, but not until close to age 5 1/2 or 6. It was very interesting (and disturbing) to see that dd, at age 2, could identify the emotions on the faces, but ds at age 5 could not. Ds has always been just about a year or so behind in social/emotional development, especially in public situations. His sensory issues delayed his development, somewhat, I think, but I also think that his natural trajectory is 'slower' than average. I'm convinced now (but I wasn't 2-3 years ago) that he'll be fine as an adult.

[Tigerle]

Those of you who have figured out these differences, please keep the stories coming, I am learning so much!

Thank you all.

[Rose-Roget]

I'm making my way through these posts, but I wanted to respond before signing off.  Ds is a little older (6), but in a very similar position.  I think the distinction about emotionally intense vs. emotionally delayed/immature is very important. 

Good luck with the early entry.  Ds has a "late" birthday - a couple of weeks before the cutoff - so he was legally allowed to be in kindy last year and 1st this year, even though he started 1st at age 5, turning 6.  The teachers he had last year recommended another year of kindergarten, even though his academic abiliites were well-beyond kindergarten levels and he is within the legal range.  Schools base a lot on emotional maturity and conformity.  Intense, spirited children are not who they are taught to teach. 

My ds has had several teachers over the past few years (yes, he's only 6!) who only looked at the behaviors and not what he can actually do/learn.  I keep moving him in hopes of finding someone with a clue, and I'm finally coming to the conclusion that maybe - right now- a multisensory school environement isn't the place for him.  Maybe if we can teach him how to learn, study, focus in the home environment, when we're able to focus on those emotional regulation skills and strategies, then he'd have a better chance of demonstrating what he knows and controlling his actions and attention in a school setting later on.  At least I won't have to dread the phone calls from the school, or worry about whether ds is doing what he's supposed to or what the teachers are thinking every day. 

A LOT is dependent on a good teacher.  Finding them can be tricky, ime.

[joensally]

Originally Posted by Tigerle 

Very interesting article! I have read only parts so far, it is so long, but boy would I like some people to read that one. Will bookmark it. But but but - the hitting and shoving other children has got to stop too...

We've had a callback from the psych unit at Children's. Have been encouraged to just bring him in for a consultation. Am completely unsure how upfront to be about the whole gifted thing without immediately looking like "that mom" - I have let them know he seems "cognitively and verbally very advanced"...if he's in full form there is just no missing how unusual, for better and for worse, our child is....

Hi Tigerle.  I have a whole lot of opinions on all of this and I've been reading but not replying as I'm feeling pretty raw lately as my intense, sensitive and emotionally mature 11 year old is now a school drop out.  I'm staying silent on other threads about little kids not having their needs met in their early schooling as I'm just Ms. Negative atm as I made DD limp along far past what was healthy for her.  I'm replying here because my observation is that with Kid1 (DD) I didn't do a very good job of "seeing" or "honouring," whereas I was much more attuned to Kid2 (DS).  I think this is because he's my second, because he's so-o-o divergent that it was obvious a traditional route wasn't going to work, because DD was highly socially motivated and adaptable that it masked the reality of her experiences.

On the topic of having your son evaluated:  it really depends on who's doing the evaluating, and the degree to which they get subtle interplay of things (ie sensory + gifted + OEs etc).  DS has undergone A LOT of evaluation, by a number of evaluators.  I have noticed enormous qualitative variation amongst evaluators.  The best thing I did was to read, read, read, openly look at my kid, and to view experts as experts in their narrow field and as consultants to me.  In preschool then kindie, the schools told me he had x, y and z.  My response was "sure, maybe, but I don't think so.  If you treat him as though that's what's happening, and it's not, you're wasting your time and energy, and possibly harming or limiting him." By 8 we confirmed a lot of things, some of it by ruling it out.  

At 3, DS was hitting kids regularly in group environments.  This was heartrending for me and I was overwhelmed and confused.  DS is a sweetheart - why was he hitting?  We got the SPD diagnosis and this helped, but he was just unable to stop the behaviour reliably until 6.  Now he doesn't react outward, he reacts inward - crying and melting down.  It gets better all the time.  When this happens, it's usually not about what just happened, but what just happened + what happened a bit earlier.  He could keep it together for event 1, but event 2 (or 5 etc) is the tipping point.  He almost never melts/cries now (8), except at school (group environment, with all that unexpected touch, overwhelming sensory etc), and it's steadily decreasing as he learns adaptive strategies.

Anyway, I will go back to what I said in a past thread.  If the belief is that a gifted individual's experience is qualitatively different (I do struggle with this as it seems pretty elitist to me), then why would we apply the same measures?  For now, let's go with if a person is extra sensitive to sound/light/movement, and they're very sensitive to the emotions of others etc, why would we say they were immature because they react more strongly to those things than the next person who is less attuned or sensitive to those things, and thus can shrug them off more readily.  I have friends with anxiety - I don't consider that immaturity.  I have a friend who hates big box stores as they overwhelm her in their proportion, lighting and acoustics - she's pretty mature.  I can go to the movies with two friends and one cries at all the sad parts - she's not less mature than the other, she's just more attuned to the emotional tenor and her emotions are closer to the surface.  I have had this experience in myself - one day a sad movie will really affect me, another day I'm more immune to it.  I didn't suddenly mature.

I think it does a disservice to a child to not honour them as individuals (Tigerle, not saying you're not, but the diagnostic process can feel this way).  We're in an age quite concerned with pathologizing every difference and where the range of normal seems to be shrinking.  I think it's good to rule out more serious issues that may warrant remediation, but it's also good to say "this is ____ at age __, this seems to be part of this developmental stage and I'm going to respect and embrace that while coaching _____ lightly and with humour to develop the skills that I forecast will benefit him in the long run and encourage him to pursue whatever his goals might be." I consider myself utterly blessed to be alongside my son on this part of his path, although I've certainly bemoaned his apparent inability to make progress on some pretty annoying/destructive habits.  He's 8 and this approach seems to be working.  I have always focused on his strengths, while acknowledging that he's struggling with x and y.  I have ensured that evaluators have been kind and respectful to him, and have seen him in some balance.  Haven't had the same good fortune with schools, but hey. 

Trying to drag myself back on point, four is a really tough year with some kids.  Some settle, some become "more." Four is still very, very young, which is easy to forget when they're verbally precocious.  When I read about your son, I think intensity and sensitivity, maybe/probably sensory issues, and likely gifted.  My daughter has described it as floods of emotion and being confused and overwhelmed by it.  With DS, who has explicit SPD over and above OEs, we're not trying to "cure" him, but rather coaching him in strategies to make it easier to live in his body, mind and world.  The Eides did a review of their last 50 files and one observation they made was that SPD was dramatically less occurrent in the over 10s than the under 10s.  They don't have a conclusion, but wonder if it might be that the over 10s have learned to manage it.

[loraxc]

Thank you for that great post, joensally. I wish I could sit down and talk with so many of you!

[Casha'sMommy]

Originally Posted by loraxc 

Thank you for that great post, joensally. I wish I could sit down and talk with so many of you!

To pick the brains of the women here would be enlightening and enjoyable.

I have a fresh pot of coffee on, dd is "doing laundry", and ds is sleeping. Any takers?

[Tigerle]

Joensally, thank you so much for chiming in! I've been wondering...am sending hugs about the situation with your DD. I remember that you used to say that your DD was "regrouping" in a new school that seemed to work so much better for her. I am so sorry it did not work out after all and that you feel so raw about it. My mother is *still* traumatized about my elementary school experience, more so than I am it sometimes seems to me. I am so afraid I'll get to relive it all...I keep wondering what kind of difference it makes that you all have the option of just taking your kids out, whether knowing the option is there makes things easier or harder. Living in a country with mandatory brick-and-mortar schooling, in my case my mother had no options whatsoever (even changing into another PS would have been next to impossible) and for my children, I will only have the option of moving them to a private school (IF they have a place), or of course moving back to public if we start out with a private school that does not work out.  HSing is out of the question, and if you need to leave school really really badly there is nothing but sending the child to hospital for inpatient treatment. But I digress.

I am actually rather conflicted about going through with the evaluation process as the new year, with Christmas behind us, has started out so much better and a number of small modifications in morning and evening routines etc have yielded a lot of benefit. So when a day goes well I think "you're over pathologizing/expecting way too much from a four-year-old who's just asynchronous". Then I realize I am too afraid to ask this mom that I really like with the daughter that DS really likes over to play/chat over a cup of tea because just before Christmas, he destroyed some of her stuff on purpose, and when we went to visit them last week, he lost it when we got dressed to leave for home, kicking first DD and then the girl and then ran screaming into the kitchen because I stopped him physically from doing so. In fact, of my own accord I have avoided arranging ANY playdate at all for weeks now. And even when we have had a good morning, DS, at dropoff, will chat and fidget for ever until taking off his stuff, then run over and kick little J (whom he dislikes) in the shin for no reason whatever, run somewhere else, run past A (whom he likes) and pat her in running, run back, stand in front of the door and ask her to come in with him, then jump around  half pushing/pulling her, half hugging her and dragging her in....then I think "we've got to act now to help him with learn socially appropriate strategies to deal with this before he starts getting a reputation as aggressive and our family will be shunned". I'm not sure how bad it would have to be for me to agree to medication (right now is waaayyy not bad enough), I suppose he'd have to be kicked out of school or something, but a diagnosis I can wave in the preschool teachers faces and a round of OT I feel caould only help. Calmer sleep, with less anxiety at bedtime and during wakeups would be helpful too (in fact this is much better, too). So far he really enjoys all doctors visits - if he does not like this one, we can always stop the process. I think.  

Ten is so far off. Ten is when I think "either we've got this covered or we've gut MUCH bigger fish to fry". Ten is also when midle school and gifted programming starts. it's elementary that scares me.

[Tigerle]

Originally Posted by Casha'sMommy 

Originally Posted by loraxc 

Thank you for that great post, joensally. I wish I could sit down and talk with so many of you!

To pick the brains of the women here would be enlightening and enjoyable.

I have a fresh pot of coffee on, dd is "doing laundry", and ds is sleeping. Any takers?

I'd love to come over - but DH would have to take the kids out in the yard!

[Casha'sMommy]

Bring your dh and he can hang my dh in the yard with all of the dc and we can sip coffee and tea. I'll make some yummy noshes as well!