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Why???!!!! So frustrating.

post #1 of 115
Thread Starter 
I responded to an woman saying her doctor was planning a possible induction if baby isn't here by her due date (for no other reason).

Her response was;

"I trust my doctor to make the decision for me."

Why are people so naive? Make the decision to induce by all means, but make it yourself and be informed about it.

Next week I'll be hearing about a failed induction, c-section and how the doctor saved her life.

Sorry for the vent.
post #2 of 115
If you allow someone else to makes decisions for you, than you are not responsible for what happens and have somebody else to blame. It is a safe way to protect yourself.
post #3 of 115

I think that is a little harsh.  I don't know that most woment who "allow their doctors to make all the decisions, or who trust their doctors" are thinking of who they are going to blame if somethign goes wrong. Sometimes there is just too much to know.  Some women may not have the time to become "experts".  Even with their own childbirth. 

post #4 of 115

I always get frustrated at those stories too, and I repeat, "not my baby, not my birth" like a mantra.  I guess over time I have come to terms with the fact that most women do not care about birth the way the women on this board do.  It's just not something they care to focus on (or don't have time, or whatever).  There is nothing that we can do about it except maybe try to plant a small seed of doubt and hope they follow up on it.  Most won't, but a few might.  What's too bad is that after that first section, the rest of a woman's reproductive life can be complicated by her not having cared the first time around.  I think that isn't a concern for most OBs in part because they focus on liability in the instant situation, and because most women only want 2 children.   I always say, "I can't save anyone else.  I can only save myself."

post #5 of 115
Thread Starter 
As someone who researches every decision I make (sometimes for years) it bothers me when people are willfully ignorant. Bringing a child into the world is the most important thing a person can do. To be so blase about it and let someone else make all the decisions about it is insane to me.
post #6 of 115

Last year I was at a baby shower and the woman said she was having a c/s because the placenta was in the way (She had complete previa) and she had never heard of it.  All the other women had never heard of it either.  One of those women was my mother, who had 6 of her own.  She looked at me and asked if I had ever heard of it and I must have had this look of shock on my face that here were all these mothers and not one had heard of placenta previa!  There really are some women, obviously, who are just not educated about their bodies, pregnancy and birth.  Its much easier for them to let their drs make decisions because they don't feel comfortable making decisions about things they really have no clue about.  Yes, they could educate themselves but most don't even know they need to.  For lots and lots of reasons, they have no clue that they should be educating themselves, they don't know what informed consent is or why they would need it. 

post #7 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Full Heart View Post

Its much easier for them to let their drs make decisions because they don't feel comfortable making decisions about things they really have no clue about.  Yes, they could educate themselves but most don't even know they need to. 



I really think this is one of the keys. When I was pregnant with my first, I talked to everyone I knew about their pregnancies (I was the first in my circle, so this was almost all women of my mom's generation and a few somewhat younger coworkers). I found out everything I could about how things worked out for them and what went wrong or right.

 

I read - viirtually memorized - a local publication called "Baby's Best Chance" (government publication, given free - with a prescription, of all things - to every pregnant woman in the province) and its information on possible interventions and why they might be needed, and on nutrition and self-care during pregnancy and labour positions, etc. etc. etc. It didn't mention any placental issues. It skipped a lot of things I've learned since. But, the major omission, imo, is that it didn't even refer to them. I can see that a smallish book doesn't really have room to go into placental issues, long-range issues from c-sections, etc. etc. But, the book could have included at least brief mentions of these things with a recommendation to do further reading if one was interested/concerned. Instead, the book always, always, always came back to "if you have any questions, please talk to your health care professional" (it was "doctor" in the original version, but midwifery was legalized by the time I had my second baby). How can I ask questions if I don't know something exists?

 

I read several other books, although I can't remember what they were all called. They were all pretty much the same - descriptions of a normal pregnancy, and normal in utero development, and a few mentions of the better known complications, interventions, etc (eg. Down's Syndrome, miscarriage, c-sections, epidurals, position changes...but with no actual mention that movement could actually ease pain). So...where does a person find information about placenta previa, if nothing that person is exposed to even acknowledges the existence of such a thing?

 

 

The one advantage I had was that I don't believe doctors are all-knowing. And, most of the things that could happen didn't. What did happen is something I've had "experts" repeatedly deny is even possible (my son turned breech during labour). I will say that none of the reading I did included the sentence, "if your medical team feels that a c-section is necessary, they won't care if you say "no" and you'll be on your way to OR". But...not sure what I could have done about that, anyway. I don't really think that my situation fell under the "if I'd known more" umbrella, but I could have been in those shoes very easily. I suspect the woman in the OP simply feels that doctors know everything about their field and she couldn't possibly acquire enough knowledge to matter over the course of a pregnancy. It's not uncommon.

post #8 of 115

Paraphrased: If you don't know your options, you don't have any.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lexapurple View Post

If you allow someone else to makes decisions for you, than you are not responsible for what happens and have somebody else to blame. It is a safe way to protect yourself.
post #9 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by swede View Post

I think that is a little harsh.  I don't know that most woment who "allow their doctors to make all the decisions, or who trust their doctors" are thinking of who they are going to blame if somethign goes wrong. Sometimes there is just too much to know.  Some women may not have the time to become "experts".  Even with their own childbirth. 


yeahthat.gif

 

I thought I had educated myself well and was ready for child birth. HA! With the wisdom of hindsight (and a lot of harsh lessons learned through my 33-hour labor and eventual c-section), I realize how little I really knew or understood about this amazingly complex thing that is called "birth." I feel like I could keep reading & learning & hearing stories for the rest of my life, and I still wouldn't know everything there is to know about the great variety of ways that women bring their babies into the world.

 

We all have to put our trust in something as we journey from pregnancy to motherhood, and some choose to put that trust in their doctors. Sometimes that trust is misplaced; sometimes it's not. Some of us suffer on the road to motherhood; I wish it could be otherwise.

 

Some women are thrilled to be pregnant, ready to embrace all the challenges & responsibilities of that journey, and have access to great support and resources that help them feel confident and joyful every step of the way. Some women are terrified to be pregnant, feel overwhelmed by the challenges & responsibilities that they face, and don't have the support or the resources to manifest an ideal outcome. I would guess that most of us fit somewhere in between those extremes.

post #10 of 115



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by limette View Post

As someone who researches every decision I make (sometimes for years) it bothers me when people are willfully ignorant. Bringing a child into the world is the most important thing a person can do. To be so blase about it and let someone else make all the decisions about it is insane to me.



"Willfully ignorant" does not seem to be the appropriate term for someone who has employed a professional deemed by society to be qualified to attend her birth. Neither does the blanket statement that bringing a child into the world is "the most" important thing a person can do. People can drastically change the world for good, in ways many would judge more impactful than childbearing- childless people, even!

 

Birth seems incredibly important to you. Do not make the mistake of deciding that others are lesser because they have different priorities, or have done the same reading you have and came to different conclusions (the boat I am in.)

post #11 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by msmiranda View Post

I always get frustrated at those stories too, and I repeat, "not my baby, not my birth" like a mantra.  I guess over time I have come to terms with the fact that most women do not care about birth the way the women on this board do.  It's just not something they care to focus on (or don't have time, or whatever).  There is nothing that we can do about it except maybe try to plant a small seed of doubt and hope they follow up on it.  Most won't, but a few might.  What's too bad is that after that first section, the rest of a woman's reproductive life can be complicated by her not having cared the first time around.


I wish I could come to terms with it too. It makes me furious to think that so many of these women are going to be ABUSED** by their care providers. I have a hard time standing idly by while innocent, trusting people are likely to be physically & mentally abused by people they put their trust into - people who SHOULD be caring for them & putting their well-being as first priority, people who SHOULD be focused on "first, do no harm." I have a hard time zipping my lip and just thinking, "not my baby, not my birth." But I know that's what I SHOULD do - it's just a big struggle for me.

 

"Plant a small seed of doubt" is a good way to phrase it. & I do try to do that with people who don't seem to want to talk about it.

 

But the other thing that makes me just crazy is that so often, these women sincerely believe and tell others things like:

"Oh, I just never dilated. I NEEDED that CS. I just didn't/couldn't dilate."

"Oh my baby was seriously in distress! The doc saved us with that CS! My baby would have died had I not had that OB to save him."

"I just never would have gone into labor. My body just wasn't working."

"I just don't have a large enough pelvis. Baby never would have fit."

 

etc.

& they tell others these things and it just perpetuates the existing American belief that birth is horribly dangerous, our bodies are dreadfully flawed, and birth requires medical "management" by OBs in hospital (and... therefore... you are insane for making the reckless decision to risk your baby's life by birthing at home.)

 

Soooo - that kinda irritates me too about this whole situation.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by limette View Post

As someone who researches every decision I make (sometimes for years) it bothers me when people are willfully ignorant. Bringing a child into the world is the most important thing a person can do. To be so blase about it and let someone else make all the decisions about it is insane to me.


I think there's a big difference between someone who is "Willfully ignorant" & someone who just doesn't know what they don't know. For example, I've read other mama's here on MDC mention that with their 1st babies, they read books... but things like "What to expect" & just never realized how detrimental "medicalized" CB is. They DID attempt to educate themselves, maybe with the free hospital-based CB class, etc. but they never realized that they need to dig deeper & question their docs.


Then, on the other hand, you have women who ARE exposed to "the painful truth about American maternity care" (subtitle of the excellent book "Pushed") & still don't want to bother to get educated & make their own decisions. So THAT does bother me.

 

**For the record - I consider the following types of things "abusive" - for low risk mothers that is (I know cEFM can be good in some cases)

  • Denying food & water in labor
  • unnecessary induction - particularly OBs presenting it as very low-risk & just for convenience, or insisting even first-timers are induced for being 'overdue' at 41W!! (When actual average for first-timers is 41W1D.)
  • Unnecessarily 'pushing' things along with AROM, pit
  • unnecessary episiotomy
  • Denying a laboring woman freedom of movement (via cEFM without telemetry) & access to hydrotherapy
  • Needless separation of mama & baby
  • CS for "suspected fetal macrosomia" (NOT recommended by ACOG, but done anyway)
  • CS for FTP when baby is fine & not that much time has passed (a mama I just met said with her 1st she was forced into a CS despite refusing to sign the consent form after only 14 hours.)

 

Those are the types of things I'm calling "abusive" but that happen every day & it makes me nuts.

post #12 of 115

I agree that women need to take control over their own bodies. I get that sometimes a 'professional's' opinion is needed and maybe even right, but we aren't talking about the women who research and read, ask questions, ask for second opinions, take a couple days to think about something before a decision is made, then make the one they feel is in their best interest and their baby's best interest. We are talking about women who's doctors say X and they just do it because well, the doctor said so and 'doctor knows best'. Yeah, that's annoying. I remember one of the contributors in The Business of Being Born saying [paraphrased] that people research their cars, stereos, cell phones for weeks or months before committing to a decision, but yet don't know the first thing about the interventions and procedures they agree to every day. It's so sad.

 

I understand your feelings,  OP. I've known several women like the woman you describe and I can't lie, it's so upsetting. I feel terrible when they have completely unnecessary c-sections for things like "the doctor said my pelvis was too small" (after having delivered vaginally before), or for failed inductions before the baby was even full-term, or "failure to progress" when babe was in no distress at all and the labor wasn't even outside the realm of normal...etc and so on...

 

The only thing you can do is detach yourself emotionally from these situations while also gently educating within the framework of your own experience so as not to seem like you're judging or lecturing. Otherwise, it could eat you up inside if you let it.

post #13 of 115

I think for some women birth is just the price you have to pay for being someone's mom. I've heard  college educated women tell me that they didn't even want to be at their own babies' births. I realize it is very sad, but there's little you can do except gush to folks how amazing your own births were.

 

 

There was one moment in my third birth where my son's heart rate dropped and the hospital nurse freaked out and tried to call "the alarm" for an emergency c-section. My midwife, who knew me and had been with me birthing before just sidled up to me and said very quietly "if you feel like pushing, now would be a good time". She managed to stall the hospital nurse.. ..I found a bar on the end of the bed that I grabbed onto and continued to standing. The midwife unrolled a sterile sheet.. sat on the floor next to me and caught my babe in three pushes. He pinked up and had perfect Apgars of nine and then ten, five minutes later. Never a clue as to what cutting me open would have "saved" him from.

post #14 of 115

So, if you were an educator or a public health worker or someone who could design a PSA, what would you do?

post #15 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by MegBoz View Post

 

 

But the other thing that makes me just crazy is that so often, these women sincerely believe and tell others things like:

"Oh, I just never dilated. I NEEDED that CS. I just didn't/couldn't dilate."

"Oh my baby was seriously in distress! The doc saved us with that CS! My baby would have died had I not had that OB to save him."

"I just never would have gone into labor. My body just wasn't working."

"I just don't have a large enough pelvis. Baby never would have fit."

 

etc.



It's awfully presumptuous of you to judge these women and their stories without having been there, and to assume that you know more than they do.

 

I was one of those that NEEDED a c/s.  I had severe preeclampsia and my doctors felt there wasn't enough time for me to be induced.  I was 32 weeks, not dilated in the least, and never had a contraction.  My baby wasn't tolerating my condition well, and neither was I.  His Apgars were 1 and 8.

 

I had to trust my doctors.  It wasn't at all appropriate to second-guess the perinatologist and demand to be inducted instead of sectioned.  I do believe that.  I was educated.  I knew that I wanted to avoid a c-section if at all possible.  But I also wanted to have a living baby.

post #16 of 115

I think this is a really complicated issue.  With my first, my midwife did an amazing job with a complicated delivery and a severe shoulder dystocia.  In the 3 years since, I have researched and researched shoulder dystocia, the risks associated with it, and the likelihood of recurrence.  My midwife is cautiously optimistic about my ability to deliver this baby vaginally.  At first, this ambiguity drove me crazy.  Ultimately, however, I've made my peace with the fact that I cannot predict how things will go.  Frankly, I'm not sure any of us can.  For those of us who choose to hire professionals to assist us, I think at a certain point we do have to trust those we hire and, if we don't, we need to seek other opinions.  At the end of it all, yes I do have strong feelings about birth, but I don't necessarily value my strong feelings and philosophy over the wisdom and experience that my midwife has gained from delivering 500 babies.

post #17 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokonon View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by MegBoz View Post

 

 

But the other thing that makes me just crazy is that so often, these women sincerely believe and tell others things like:

"Oh, I just never dilated. I NEEDED that CS. I just didn't/couldn't dilate."

"Oh my baby was seriously in distress! The doc saved us with that CS! My baby would have died had I not had that OB to save him."

"I just never would have gone into labor. My body just wasn't working."

"I just don't have a large enough pelvis. Baby never would have fit."

 

etc.



It's awfully presumptuous of you to judge these women and their stories without having been there, and to assume that you know more than they do.

 

I was one of those that NEEDED a c/s.  I had severe preeclampsia and my doctors felt there wasn't enough time for me to be induced.  I was 32 weeks, not dilated in the least, and never had a contraction.  My baby wasn't tolerating my condition well, and neither was I.  His Apgars were 1 and 8.

 

I had to trust my doctors.  It wasn't at all appropriate to second-guess the perinatologist and demand to be inducted instead of sectioned.  I do believe that.  I was educated.  I knew that I wanted to avoid a c-section if at all possible.  But I also wanted to have a living baby.



 There is a huge difference from pre-e and the items listed above, which are commonly heard and used as excuses for interventions. The sad fact is that a lot of women are not aware of the birth process or how their bodies work (this is why i first started reading about birth, even though I have no plans for children), it is also a sad fact that obstetricians dont always fully inform or educate the women they treat, both IMO are caused by our current society. Slowly we are changing that!

post #18 of 115

I'll just add a little something.  I'm a researcher by nature, so I knew what was happening throughout my pregnancy, I was very in-tune to everything.

 

BUT, I wrongfully assumed because of my trusting/following nature that doctors always did what was in your best interests.  Even during the induction and subsiquent c-sec I still felt that way.  It wasn't till I was ready to have #2 that I started to do my research on labor and delivery and found out that the doctors did not have my best interests at heart.

 

I have a friend now that's due 5 days before me and she's me during my first pregnancy.  I make sure to gently inform her what I've learned over the last couple of years, but she's pretty much oblivious.

 

I wasn't taking the "easy" way out or just letting someone else make the decisions for me.  I was not ignorant or lazy, I just was too trusting.  It's hard to remember that we can't judge other people decisions till we've been in their shoes.

post #19 of 115

The route of the issues brought up here is that our society sees doctors as GODS who can do no wrong, make no mistakes, have no prejudices. Who we have to listen to because they know best. Who are the authority. And when a patients questions something, even in a respectful gentle way, they are ofen responded to in a defensive or "how dare you question me" tone. It also is the result of the extemely saddening lack of education girls and women recieve about their own bodies.

post #20 of 115

"Willful ignorance" might also be partly due to fear.  On MDC I've learned a lot about possible complications and problems people go through with their births just by casually reading threads and then looking stuff up, and learned about some of these before my 1st daughter was born - and lots of them are scary as hell!  I can imagine that many people just don't even want to think about what their options might be in case of some scary complications, and in the face of thinking about problems, would just prefer to believe that the doctors would do what is best for them.  Being scared can shut you right down, sometimes.  This is probably only even more the case with people who don't usually question authority...

 

Also - as the previous poster who mentioned shoulder dystocia mentioned - I had complications that I really hadn't foreseen with DD1, although I took a "women's bodies/sexuality/reproduction" class in the women's studies department at my undergrad and was pretty aware of the unnecessary medicalization of birth and the possibility of a cascade of interventions.  I've since researched the complications that I did have and know what I would've done differently in that situation, and I've done my best to plan for contingencies as I make a birth plan for this upcoming baby, but there are probably situations I haven't considered and might have to decide whether to trust the MWs about pretty quickly.  I think that the unpredictable nature of birth is a big part of the fear factor too.

 

Although of course we all hope for an uncomplicated, relatively pleasant birth experience!  And doing research, questioning the norms, and listening to your own body/intuition is a big part of helping that to happen.

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