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Why???!!!! So frustrating. - Page 2

post #21 of 115

I also research a lot, it's just in my nature. I thought I could trust my first care provider, but in the end I realized that I was just another routine day and nothing more. I think that many women just rather do whatever their Doctor says and get labor over with. People always think I'm crazy for saying that I loved my second labor and can't wait to do it again. At the end of the day we're all different.

post #22 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokonon View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MegBoz View Post

 

But the other thing that makes me just crazy is that so often, these women sincerely believe and tell others things like:

"Oh, I just never dilated. I NEEDED that CS. I just didn't/couldn't dilate."

"Oh my baby was seriously in distress! The doc saved us with that CS! My baby would have died had I not had that OB to save him."

"I just never would have gone into labor. My body just wasn't working."

"I just don't have a large enough pelvis. Baby never would have fit."

 

etc.

 

It's awfully presumptuous of you to judge these women and their stories without having been there, and to assume that you know more than they do.


I grow weary of this particular discussion here on MDC. Seems to pop up often.


YES.. there ARE cases undoubtedly cases where a CS saved a baby's life. No question there!

 

But the fact of the matter is that there are many CS being done unnecessarily. I mean really, does anyone here actually doubt that??!? Sure, we can't pin point WHICH CS are the unnecessary ones - and we shouldn't TRY to do so - we shouldn't try to "armchair quarterback" someone's birth after the fact and say, "Hm, no, I think that fetal distress was iatrogenic." What good does that do anyone???


I'm not talking about "these women" as you put it --I had no specific people in mind-- I'm talking in generalities here. There are lots of women going around telling others that the medical establishment "saved" them & their baby from a pathological birth process that would otherwise have been deadly - & THAT IS NOT THE TRUTH IN EVERY CASE. Again, it absolutely IS the truth in many cases, but it is not ALWAYS the truth.

 

Let me restate this same point yet again - we can't know WHICH women are victims of iatrogenic, unnecessary CS, nor should we TRY to make that judgment. But Iatrogenic, unnecessary CS exist - and most women who were victims of said "unnecessarians" don't know they were victims of unnecessarians - they think the CS was necessary.

 

With the WHO (World Health Organization) stating that the CS rate should be 10-15% MAX in any population, and the US rate being more than double that at around 33%, AND there not being many purely non-medical- maternal-request CS (which means the vast majority of CS are because the doc says "this is what is best/ required") WHAT ELSE CAN IT POSSIBLY MEAN other than Docs are telling lots of women they need/ needed a CS who actually did not?! (or would not have needed the CS if it weren't for the other interventions that caused the cascade.)

 

So, let's recap again:

  1. There are women having CS who did not need the CS (if you disagree that this is fact, then you disagree with WHO)
  2. The doc convinced them they DID need it (or they did need it only because it was iatrogenic - doctor caused)
  3. ----> THEREFORE - there are some American women who think they needed a CS when they really didn't (or wouldn't have)
  4. They go telling people they needed a CS (i.e. "The Doc saved me from this dangerous thing called birth that would have killed my baby otherwise.")
  5. Other women who don't know "the painful truth about American maternity care" keep hearing these stories and it reinforces the message, "BIRTH IS DANGEROUS! So just trust your doctor! You wouldn't try to figure out how to do heart surgery --you'd trust the surgeon to know what he was doing-- so you should just trust the OB to manage things with birth too."

 

Any time I meet someone who had a CS, obviously I don't know if it was truly necessary or not, but I still argue that the above 4 step process is occurring in the US today & this process only reinforces the existing believe that birth is dangerous & you should trust your doc (i.e. 'YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED, DEAR" - as they say in the famous Monty Python "PING" sketch.)

 

Now, the message I'm trying to convey in this particular post - I thought it would have been clear in my initial post #11 - my posts are WAY too long already for me to always hash this all out!

post #23 of 115

Some women see no big deal in inductions and c-sections, so to them, they are not a big deal.  To some, going natural is absolutely insane and unecessary.  Not your birth, don't judge.

 

And honestly, birth can be dangerous, very dangerous.  It's not all sunshine and rainbows like so many people like to believe.

post #24 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASusan View Post

So, if you were an educator or a public health worker or someone who could design a PSA, what would you do?


An excellent Q. From an advertising perspective, if I were to design an advertisement (& I am in marketing full time), you need to follow the guidelines: "Interrupt, Engage, Educate, & Offer."

To interrupt (grab attention) I'd start with, "You CAN NOT TRUST your OB." Maybe with an image of a wolf in a doc's lab coat (i.e. "wolf in sheep's clothing.") Something deliberately controversial to grab attention & generate interest. This also elicits fear, which is a good advertising concept to get attention & get interest so people read the ad.

It sounds horrible but that is the fact of the matter. American women can't blindly trust their HCPs because American maternity care providers are, on the whole, not practicing evidence-based medicine. I'd say "OB" in the ad b/c that really is synonymous with "maternity care provider" in the US. & the fact is that I believe it's still 91% of births that are attended by OBs.

 

Then, to educate & offer, I'd suggest resources like movies BoBB, Orgasmic Birth, & books like Pushed, Thinking Woman's Guide. or maybe if it were a local ad (billboard, local TV only), I'd direct them to local resources like LLL & ICAN meetings, Baltimore has 2 local "birth circles," or websites that are good at summing up facts like childbirth connection, etc.

 

My MW has a bumper sticker in her office that says, "BIRTH IS NORMAL! The biggest secret in American obstetrics." I like this phrase too, but it doesn't elicit FEAR the way "You CAN NOT TRUST your OB" does - it doesn't give a WARNING the way that phrase does to entice people to TAKE ACTION in order to question what they're told & get educated to advocate for themselves & ensure they get evidence-based medicine.

 

So if I were to design a PSA, that's my knee-jerk reaction.


INSTEAD - what I really think would be great steps for improving America's dreadful maternity care:

1. changes in insurance (better FSBC & HB coverage, coverage for tub rentals, not allowing docs to bill extra fees for vaginal exams in late pregnancy, etc. - change things so that money will drive best practices.

 

2. Changes in medical care (even just shift-work is found to lower the CS rate, so docs have zero incentive to 'section' a woman before going home, since they're paid the same whether they are present for the actual delivery or not.)

 

3. Cultural changes.

I'd love to start "birth story day" where we go tell birth stories in high schools. The only exposure I had to birth before getting pregnant was the typical stuff- stupid movies, the birth movie in high school which I think was intended to be gross & awful to discourage sexual activity, etc. I'd NEVER EVEN HEARD OF THE CONCEPT of birth as being joyful (even if still painful.) It was a totally foreign idea to me, & that is sad! I think that should have been addressed in high school health class. It's a start.

post #25 of 115

The WHO rescinded their recommendations for c-section rates last year.  The ideal at this point is not to hit a target number, but to provide surgery for women who need it and reduce maternal/infant mortality rates.  Which makes sense, honestly, as there were plenty of ways for nations to hit the c-section "target" without providing anything like adequate healthcare infrastructure for pregnant women and newborns.   

 

Not every woman in the world wants to share her pregnancy and birth decisions with every other woman in the world.  Many women view these matters as intensely private.  There's no good reason to walk the earth questioning other women's choices for pregnancy and birth.  In a perfect world where women have every possible option open to them, a lot of women might still make choices that other people disapprove of.  

post #26 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by MegBoz View Post

 

An excellent Q. From an advertising perspective, if I were to design an advertisement (& I am in marketing full time), you need to follow the guidelines: "Interrupt, Engage, Educate, & Offer."

To interrupt (grab attention) I'd start with, "You CAN NOT TRUST your OB." Maybe with an image of a wolf in a doc's lab coat (i.e. "wolf in sheep's clothing.") Something deliberately controversial to grab attention & generate interest. This also elicits fear, which is a good advertising concept to get attention & get interest so people read the ad.
 


I'm a doctor.  Words can not describe how offensive I find this.

post #27 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by MegBoz View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokonon View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MegBoz View Post

 

But the other thing that makes me just crazy is that so often, these women sincerely believe and tell others things like:

"Oh, I just never dilated. I NEEDED that CS. I just didn't/couldn't dilate."

"Oh my baby was seriously in distress! The doc saved us with that CS! My baby would have died had I not had that OB to save him."

"I just never would have gone into labor. My body just wasn't working."

"I just don't have a large enough pelvis. Baby never would have fit."

 

etc.

 

It's awfully presumptuous of you to judge these women and their stories without having been there, and to assume that you know more than they do.


I grow weary of this particular discussion here on MDC. Seems to pop up often.


YES.. there ARE cases undoubtedly cases where a CS saved a baby's life. No question there!

 

But the fact of the matter is that there are many CS being done unnecessarily. I mean really, does anyone here actually doubt that??!? Sure, we can't pin point WHICH CS are the unnecessary ones - and we shouldn't TRY to do so - we shouldn't try to "armchair quarterback" someone's birth after the fact and say, "Hm, no, I think that fetal distress was iatrogenic." What good does that do anyone???


I'm not talking about "these women" as you put it --I had no specific people in mind-- I'm talking in generalities here. There are lots of women going around telling others that the medical establishment "saved" them & their baby from a pathological birth process that would otherwise have been deadly - & THAT IS NOT THE TRUTH IN EVERY CASE. Again, it absolutely IS the truth in many cases, but it is not ALWAYS the truth.

 

Let me restate this same point yet again - we can't know WHICH women are victims of iatrogenic, unnecessary CS, nor should we TRY to make that judgment. But Iatrogenic, unnecessary CS exist - and most women who were victims of said "unnecessarians" don't know they were victims of unnecessarians - they think the CS was necessary.

 

With the WHO (World Health Organization) stating that the CS rate should be 10-15% MAX in any population, and the US rate being more than double that at around 33%, AND there not being many purely non-medical- maternal-request CS (which means the vast majority of CS are because the doc says "this is what is best/ required") WHAT ELSE CAN IT POSSIBLY MEAN other than Docs are telling lots of women they need/ needed a CS who actually did not?! (or would not have needed the CS if it weren't for the other interventions that caused the cascade.)

 

So, let's recap again:

  1. There are women having CS who did not need the CS (if you disagree that this is fact, then you disagree with WHO)
  2. The doc convinced them they DID need it (or they did need it only because it was iatrogenic - doctor caused)
  3. ----> THEREFORE - there are some American women who think they needed a CS when they really didn't (or wouldn't have)
  4. They go telling people they needed a CS (i.e. "The Doc saved me from this dangerous thing called birth that would have killed my baby otherwise.")
  5. Other women who don't know "the painful truth about American maternity care" keep hearing these stories and it reinforces the message, "BIRTH IS DANGEROUS! So just trust your doctor! You wouldn't try to figure out how to do heart surgery --you'd trust the surgeon to know what he was doing-- so you should just trust the OB to manage things with birth too."

 

Any time I meet someone who had a CS, obviously I don't know if it was truly necessary or not, but I still argue that the above 4 step process is occurring in the US today & this process only reinforces the existing believe that birth is dangerous & you should trust your doc (i.e. 'YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED, DEAR" - as they say in the famous Monty Python "PING" sketch.)

 

Now, the message I'm trying to convey in this particular post - I thought it would have been clear in my initial post #11 - my posts are WAY too long already for me to always hash this all out!



I am aware of all that - and you should note that in your original post, you used the term "these women".  It was how you put it, and I was using your words.

post #28 of 115

we cant know which woman were given an "unnecessary" c section because those c section babies are alive and kicking. while babies like my daughter are buried in the ground.

 

some people wish to God they had had a c section

post #29 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by liz-hippymom View Post

we cant know which woman were given an "unnecessary" c section because those c section babies are alive and kicking. while babies like my daughter are buried in the ground.

 

some people wish to God they had had a c section



Liz- I just went to your blog and watched the video you posted today.  I am in tears.  My heart breaks for you and your beautiful family.  

post #30 of 115

I think mothers need to be gentle with each other - to be a mother is an intense job and there is too much judgement. Mothers judge themselves so harshly as it is.  Mothers do not need others mothers judging them. People do the best they can with the cards they're dealt.  I think that some of the comments on here are finger pointing and guilt inducing.  There is already enough mom guilt inside the  heart of every mom, let alone more mom guilt that you didn't birth your baby right.  I understand about getting educated and doing the research.  I was overwhelmed with the whole pregnancy and information overload.  There are a lot of books out there that are pretty THICK and in a language that is very formal and difficult to understand. I was also very lucky to have had a doctor that a dear friend of mine suggested, who is a home birth advocate.  I had gest. diabetes and was told that I would have to be induced if I did not go into labor by the due date.  I hated it.  I cried the whole way to the hospital and felt like I was forcing my son out of the womb and changing his celestial birth date. I was very close to going home. But I trusted my doctor when he said that he has seen too many still born babies in women with GD.  He has birthed 10,000 babies so I felt comfortable with him.  He was also a very gentle man and he and his family are very natural. 

 

I had an epideral too.  And you know what, I admit it proudly.  I wish I could be brave like you amazing women that birth your babies at home, without pain meds, but I am not there yet.  Please don't judge me or any mother.  You just have no idea what is going on in their head or body.

memomuse

namaste.gif

post #31 of 115

This thread has veered way off topic. This isn't about necessary vs unnecessary c-sections. That was only a mere example of what happens when women give up their own power of choice and place it in the hands of surgeons, who were trained to do surgery, and trust these surgeons to advocate for them and their desire to birth babies naturally (or at the very least, vaginally).

 

Yes, there is too much judgment and it can get ugly. However, there is also too much defensiveness on the part of women who have had interventions (whether necessary or not) that often leads to a shutdown of conversation on both sides and intense feelings all around. This isn't mother vs mother here. This is a conversation that needs to happen. If we continue to blindly trust the advice of OBs without so much as questioning procedures, researching decisions, and going as far as to allow doctors to make our decisions for us, we have truly handed over all autonomy which can be extremely, extremely dangerous.

 

No, all OBs are not evil cut-happy birth rapists. However, not all of them are advocates for the choices of mothers, not all of them respect patient rights, not all of them truly have the best interest of mama and baby at heart (above their own liability) and not all of them use caution when considering serious abdominal surgery. The evidence of that is a nearly 50% c-section rate in some areas and at some hospitals. Yes, some c-sections are truly needed, but no, 50% of all women of child-birthing age are NOT intrinsically flawed in their very reproductive design.

 

The initial point of this thread (well, from my perspective) was the frustration that those of us who research, read, ask questions, gain second opinions, and make our decisions with the consideration of our caregivers' professional opinions feel toward situations where women who don't willingly place their entire fates (because things like c-sections can be life or death) into the hands of doctors who may or may not be advocating for the best interest of women, their babies, their reproductive health, or in some cases, their lives. It creates a situation of the God-complex you see with many doctors and the idea that our bodies are not our own and we are ultimately not in charge of them...which is dangerous.

 

This is a conversation that needs to continue to happen, in my opinion.

post #32 of 115

I think the conversation quickly begins to feel antagonistic when people allow themselves to be frustrated by other mothers' personal, private choices about health care, pregnancy and birth. 

 

If someone else chooses to place her own personal fate in the hands of her own personal HCP, that's her choice.  Women make these choices based on a lot of factors.  It's useless, and often hurtful, for bystanders (who aren't in the situation, and often aren't aware of all the factors and issues under consideration) to criticize.  The feelings of others about the medical-industrial complex are really completely irrelevant to any one person's personal choices. 

 

And, gently mamas, what is the point of allowing yourself to be frustrated by other women's private, personal choices?  What will getting angry at these allegedly poorly informed and apathetic mothers accomplish? 

post #33 of 115

I disagree. I think women who allow their personal fates to be decided by their HCPs, though their personal choice yes, leads to the climate we are living in today where many more women suffer due to the larger 'monster' that's been created from those women making "personal" choices.The whole point is, they are NOT making "personal choices". They're not making choices at all, that's the problem.

 

 It's not about the individual women, they can choose what they will choose, (which essentially, is not choosing) but what's left in the wake of that are thousands of HCPs, hospitals and legislators who begin to form their policies, behaviors, and laws based on the idea that women should not have the final say (or sometimes, a say at all) in what happens to their bodies. And yeah, that is dangerous and it does frustrate me. If more women researched, questioned, sought second opinions, thought before making fear-based decisions, and kept their autonomy rather than blindly handing it to their OBs (no matter what they ultimately decided), we wouldn't have the current situation we do regarding women and obstetric "care". It's not about the ACTUAL choice (like the OP said, be induced or not, but make it your decision). That's the issue here.

post #34 of 115

 

The women you're talking about did make a decision. They chose an OB they trust and then they chose to follow their OBs recommendations. A lot of women feel confident of a good outcome from that approach.

And, a lot of women are genuinely treated well in hospitals. I don't wish to discount the experiences of women who are treated badly, but I think it's important to remember that neither positive or negative experiences are universal.

Consequently, there are a bunch of women who chose an OB, accepted their OBs recommendations, and are perfectly content with the results. This is not an evil thing. It does not make things worse for other women. There will always be people who really don't want to invest a lot of time and energy in what they see as a brief experience that is amenable to safe management by their chosen experts. There is no point in getting frustrated with them. They aren't making choices for you.

I am a very informed consumer of health care services, and I love to do research. But none of my research about childbirth has been needed in the hospitals where I had my dds. I think it's possible, and even likely, that Many of the women referred to in this thread as willfully ignorant are very happy with their birth experiences and outcomes.

No individual woman is responsible for the state of the system. If you want to see more change in that, look at insurance companies, regulatory agencies, and medical schools.
post #35 of 115


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stik View Post

 

The women you're talking about did make a decision. They chose an OB they trust and then they chose to follow their OBs recommendations. A lot of women feel confident of a good outcome from that approach.

And, a lot of women are genuinely treated well in hospitals. I don't wish to discount the experiences of women who are treated badly, but I think it's important to remember that neither positive or negative experiences are universal.

Consequently, there are a bunch of women who chose an OB, accepted their OBs recommendations, and are perfectly content with the results. This is not an evil thing. It does not make things worse for other women. There will always be people who really don't want to invest a lot of time and energy in what they see as a brief experience that is amenable to safe management by their chosen experts. There is no point in getting frustrated with them. They aren't making choices for you.

I am a very informed consumer of health care services, and I love to do research. But none of my research about childbirth has been needed in the hospitals where I had my dds. I think it's possible, and even likely, that Many of the women referred to in this thread as willfully ignorant are very happy with their birth experiences and outcomes.

No individual woman is responsible for the state of the system. If you want to see more change in that, look at insurance companies, regulatory agencies, and medical schools.

I completely agree. I had a vaginal birth after a successful induction and an epidural. Other than the nasty nausea, it went pretty darn well. I trusted my OB before the birth and nothing happened during the birth to make me seek a different course next time. I'm happy with how things went. And the hospital staff treated me like a human being at all times.

post #36 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by liz-hippymom View Post

we cant know which woman were given an "unnecessary" c section because those c section babies are alive and kicking. while babies like my daughter are buried in the ground.

 

some people wish to God they had had a c section



Liz - I just looked at your blog.  Aquila was beautiful.  I am so sorry for your loss.

post #37 of 115

I find these scenarios frustrating, too. It's not because I really care if some women want or need an epidural (and I'll be honest - just the idea of an epidural freaks me out more than labour has ever even come close to...pain, for me, is just pain - numbness is terrifying). I don't have anything women trusting their HCP, either. The reasons these scenarios frustrate me are:

 

1) I've had way too many people lecture me about the "realities" of labour, birth, the dangers involved, possible complications, etc. - and not one of those people (other than the doctors involved) have done even a fraction of the research that I've done. Don't parrot back at me what your doctor told you - about your specific case - and expect me to enjoy being lectured like a child, yk? It's not my idea of a good time.

 

2) While many of these women will end up quite happy with their births, I know there are going to be some of them who are completely unhappy and who have a really bad time, and it's really, really, really hard to watch that happen.

post #38 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by liz-hippymom View Post

we cant know which woman were given an "unnecessary" c section because those c section babies are alive and kicking. while babies like my daughter are buried in the ground.

 

some people wish to God they had had a c section



I'm so sorry for your loss.

 

However, this goes both ways. I'll wonder for the rest of my life if my son would have lived if I hadn't already had three (unnecessary - any one of them may have become necessary, but not one of them was necessary when it was done - not one) c-sections.

post #39 of 115

can you explain

#1 why you think/feel all your c sections were unnecessary?

and

#2 why you wonder if having three sections might have caused your sons death/


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by liz-hippymom View Post

we cant know which woman were given an "unnecessary" c section because those c section babies are alive and kicking. while babies like my daughter are buried in the ground.

 

some people wish to God they had had a c section



I'm so sorry for your loss.

 

However, this goes both ways. I'll wonder for the rest of my life if my son would have lived if I hadn't already had three (unnecessary - any one of them may have become necessary, but not one of them was necessary when it was done - not one) c-sections.

post #40 of 115


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by Full Heart View Post

Its much easier for them to let their drs make decisions because they don't feel comfortable making decisions about things they really have no clue about.  Yes, they could educate themselves but most don't even know they need to. 



I really think this is one of the keys. When I was pregnant with my first, I talked to everyone I knew about their pregnancies (I was the first in my circle, so this was almost all women of my mom's generation and a few somewhat younger coworkers). I found out everything I could about how things worked out for them and what went wrong or right.

 

I read - viirtually memorized - a local publication called "Baby's Best Chance" (government publication, given free - with a prescription, of all things - to every pregnant woman in the province) and its information on possible interventions and why they might be needed, and on nutrition and self-care during pregnancy and labour positions, etc. etc. etc. It didn't mention any placental issues. It skipped a lot of things I've learned since. But, the major omission, imo, is that it didn't even refer to them. I can see that a smallish book doesn't really have room to go into placental issues, long-range issues from c-sections, etc. etc. But, the book could have included at least brief mentions of these things with a recommendation to do further reading if one was interested/concerned. Instead, the book always, always, always came back to "if you have any questions, please talk to your health care professional" (it was "doctor" in the original version, but midwifery was legalized by the time I had my second baby). How can I ask questions if I don't know something exists?

 

I read several other books, although I can't remember what they were all called. They were all pretty much the same - descriptions of a normal pregnancy, and normal in utero development, and a few mentions of the better known complications, interventions, etc (eg. Down's Syndrome, miscarriage, c-sections, epidurals, position changes...but with no actual mention that movement could actually ease pain). So...where does a person find information about placenta previa, if nothing that person is exposed to even acknowledges the existence of such a thing?

 

I have to agree with this, particularly in regards to placenta previa.  I had never heard of the condition until I *had* it.  The only person I actually knew who knew what it was right off was my mom, who is a doctor.  After being diagnosed, I went to the bookstore, and checked the index of every pregnancy book they had for the condition.  Some of those books gave it as much as a paragraph.  Most gave it a sentence or two, but some didn't mention it at all.  So I went through a medically complicated pregnancy with no reliable source of information about what was going on, what the likely outcomes were, or how I should prepare for them.  I couldn't get much of that info from my midwives - they kept assuring me that the problem would go away and I could plan for a vaginal delivery.

 

The end result of this was that I wound up with very few choices.  Now, as it happened, I was lucky:  the ambulance took me to an excellent hospital, where the processes for saving my life and my daughter's kicked efficiently into motion, and it turned out that all of the things I would have wanted to ask for (as much contact between babies and moms post c-section as medically possible, kangaroo care and constant parent access in the NICU, exclusive breast milk for preemies) were hospital policy.  There are no words to say how very fortunate that means I was.

 

The point I keep wanting to make is that, when we only talk about how bad c-sections are, and how much they are to be avoided, we rob women who need surgery of choices that they might otherwise have.  If we don't talk about these things realistically and pragmatically in advance, we're stuck trusting our care providers, and we may not even get to choose those.

 

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