Why???!!!! So frustrating. - Page 3

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by liz-hippymom 

can you explain

#1 why you think/feel all your c sections were unnecessary?

and

#2 why you wonder if having three sections might have caused your sons death/

1a) My first was done for breech. My membranes hadn't ruptured yet, and there was no issue except that he was upside down. While there may have been issues if labour had continued, there weren't any issues at the time. (I personally feel that the staff panicked when they realized they had a "missed" breech on their hands. It wasn't "missed" - he turned after labour started.)

1b) My second was also done for breech. For a lot of complicated emotional reasons, I panicked and caved in when my doctors wouldn't listen to me. She was found to be breech at 39w, 3d (surgery was two days later), because "the baby is too big, and it's not possible for her to turn before labour". Not necessary. As I say, maybe it would have been once labour started (and subsequent births with dh as the father suggest it would have probably been at least another week). In any case, it wasn't necessary, and it was my only labour-free section, and it sucked in every respect, including dd1 being my only baby with jaundice and my milk being quite delayed.

1c) Post-dates. He was fine. There was no issue whatsoever, except that I'd had two prior sections, and he was "overdue" (as was dh, as were all three of his siblings - seems that post-dates and big babies are in his genes). That's it. OB threatened to drop me at 41w, 4d, if I didn't cave and have the surgery, and for some reason, I actually thought that would be loss of some kind. (DS2 was obviously suffering greatly from his extended stay in my toxic uterus, as his initial apgar was only a 9.)

1d) This was my stillborn son. Obviously, things had gone wrong, so I guess the c/s was "necessary". But, he was engaged in the birth canal - since he didn't live, anyway, I'd have much preferred to grieve without the hideous surgical recovery on top of it.

1e) There's no question this one wasn't necessary. DH wasn't willing to have another bab if I didn't have a c/s, and I certainly wasn't up to dealing with it if the cops and/or CPS showed up again if I tried to homebirth. So, I just caved, and climbed on the stupid table. The only indication for a section was that I'd already had a bunch.

2) It's complicated, and there are many factors, physical and psychological. However, I believe that if my uterus hadn't been hacked up three times previously, and if I didn't have nerve damage in my pelvis from the third one, Aaron would have survived. I've also come across some things that indicate that both miscarriage and stillbirth are increased in women who have had c-sections. But I've got about 6 years of research on these issues under my belt, and rarely bookmark anything, so I can't give you any more details than that. (I tend to weigh what I find, make my decisions, and then forget the details of how I got there.) The psychological aspects are more complicated, and I don't like talking about them, because I know I blew it...but without my previous experiences, I might have been slightly more willing to transfer to the hospital for medical "care".

This is all purely speculative, of course. I don't even know what actually killed him. It's possible he had something wrong, and if he'd survived the birth (either a successful VBA3C or a scheduled c/s), he would have died, anyway. I have no idea. (They don't release the autopsy results to "unqualified" people, and I haven't yet reached the point where I can stomach talking about Aaron with a doctor.)

I hate that I ever had a c-section, let alone five. My entire "birth" history has completely broken me, and I have pretty serious doubts that I'll ever be fully emotionally functional again.

FWIW, I was also "born" by scheduled c-section (after my mom's midsection was butchered getting my brother out) and I hate that, too. It's creepy.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by MeepyCat 

The point I keep wanting to make is that, when we only talk about how bad c-sections are, and how much they are to be avoided, we rob women who need surgery of choices that they might otherwise have. 

I know very few people, even in ICAN, who only talk about how bad they are. There are a few people like that, but the vast majority realize there are times when they really are necessary to save the mother, the baby, or both. This is just one of those things. I can hear anywhere about how great, convenient (puke), and easy (puke again) c-sections are, but there aren't that many voices saying they have downsides. When I joined MDC almost six years ago, I had Googled "c-section support". Every hit I got, except for here and ICAN, was someone raving about how amazing c-sections are. Are the people on the other side of that just supposed to shut up?

[MeepyCat]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride 

Originally Posted by MeepyCat 

The point I keep wanting to make is that, when we only talk about how bad c-sections are, and how much they are to be avoided, we rob women who need surgery of choices that they might otherwise have. 

I know very few people, even in ICAN, who only talk about how bad they are. There are a few people like that, but the vast majority realize there are times when they really are necessary to save the mother, the baby, or both. This is just one of those things. I can hear anywhere about how great, convenient (puke), and easy (puke again) c-sections are, but there aren't that many voices saying they have downsides. When I joined MDC almost six years ago, I had Googled "c-section support". Every hit I got, except for here and ICAN, was someone raving about how amazing c-sections are. Are the people on the other side of that just supposed to shut up?

My cesarean was the least disturbing thing to happen to me all night, but it was one freakin' *disturbing* night.  I'm completely at peace with the surgery I had, but I'm not going to go on about how they're convenient and easy, nor am I going to tell people who have bad experiences to shut it.  Your surgery was not my surgery, your surgery was different, and also, it was yours, and your feelings about it are the ones that matter.  There are, nonetheless, habits of conversation that I've seen here and elsewhere that are counterproductive.  There are a ton of books and websites that mention c/s as a possible necessity once or twice and say nothing at all about what choices women have when having c-sections, what complications and controversies might arise, or what usual procedures and best practices are  (See "Your Best Birth", and "The Thinking Women's Guide to Better Birth" for especially egregious examples). It's all very well to say that surgical delivery is not the desired outcome so we're not going to talk about it, but if you need a surgical delivery, where does that leave you?  Even talking about how convenient and easy they are (and I want everyone who has ever claimed that her c/s was easy and she never hurt a bit to report on her first unaneasthetised fart post-surgery, in the interests of full disclosure) doesn't cover the territory - those are basically marketing claims.  They have nothing to say about what you should expect, or what choices you will need to make. 

That's the pragmatic conversation that I think would be useful to have, the one I don't think we're having, the one I worry may be impossible while some of the judgments I've seen on this thread about women who trust their doctors are tossed around.

[Lisa1970]

I know exactly what you mean. I get so sick of that too. It frustrates me to death. It is one of the main reasons that I don't outside of Mothering really while pregnant. The people here are more mature and less likely to just mindlessly obey their doctors and worship them like they are Gods.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by MeepyCat 

There are a ton of books and websites that mention c/s as a possible necessity once or twice and say nothing at all about what choices women have when having c-sections,

I think a lot of the things you mentioned are a good idea - talking about what complications can arise, etc. But, I did want to address this one...because, ime, one of the reasons that people don't talk about the choices women have when facing c-sections is because a lot of women, for all practical purposes, don't have any. I managed to get my way - even though the staff self-evidently thought I was nuts - on most things I wanted when I had dd2. But, I can almost guarantee (having talked to the people involved, some of whom I'd dealt with in prior pregnancies) that the only reason anybody paid any attention to anything I said or wanted is because I had that gigantic "mother of a dead baby" note in my file, and they tiptoe around us. Seriously...if every woman got the kind of care I got after losing a child, maternity care would be light years better than it is. But, before that? No choices. Hospital policy or nothing.
 

[happysmileylady]

In relation to the OP and being frustrated that women don't take a more active role in something that is supposed to be THAT important (on post even says THE MOST important thing.)

Why is birth and the method of birth supposed to be THAT important?  Why is any woman supposed to care so much?  Why is it a bad thing if the most important thing to them is a happy healthy baby and they don't care how they get to that point?

[GOPLawyer]

Originally Posted by happysmileylady 

In relation to the OP and being frustrated that women don't take a more active role in something that is supposed to be THAT important (on post even says THE MOST important thing.)

Why is birth and the method of birth supposed to be THAT important?  Why is any woman supposed to care so much?  Why is it a bad thing if the most important thing to them is a happy healthy baby and they don't care how they get to that point?

Because the birth can mean life or death.  I am sick, sick SICK to death of the "a healthy baby is all that matters" line.  It is horrible on several levels.  1) It is usually used to justify a c/s which may not have been necessary and very possibly more dangerous.  2) It is used by many HCP and bystanders as a way to bully a Mama into a particular decision.  3)It is equivalent to sticking gyour head in the sand and passing the responsibility of birth decisions onto someone else. 4) It ignores the fact that there are TWO people involved in the birth.  The end result may be a happy, healthy baby but a very scarred (mentally and/or physically) Mama.

And yes....it does work both ways.  My unnecessary 2nd c/s for breech presentation (as was the 1st) ended up almost killing my son.  I am absolutely, 100% sure that it was due to the c/s.  Not a day goes by that I don't wish that I had fought as hard for a VBAC for DS2 as I did (successfully) for DD.

The absolute, most important thing was that DS2 be happy and healthy...and that still didn't matter a bit when it came right down to it.  He almost died and I will forever have terror filled memories of his birth.

That fun little, quippy quote sure didn't mean a darn thing to us.

[happysmileylady]

It didn't mean anything to you.  If it DOES mean something to another woman...if that really is ALL that matters to her, why should anyone else care? 

[GOPLawyer]

As to the OP...

I completely understand where you are coming from.  There are so many times I want to bang my head on the wall (or keyboard) in frustration.  However, I've been on both sides so I do try to be understanding.  When I look back at how ignorant of all things birth related going into my first birth...ugh.  I so wish I could go back and change things.

Generally, we're taught to take a doctor's word at face value.  They are always looking out for us and they are the professional.  Women, especially, are trained to think this way.  And really, the massive availability of research and information is such a new thing for the general public.  My Mom was just amazed at the info I ended up gathering....it certainly hadn't been available to her when she was having babies.

When it comes down to it, I am significantly more frustrated with the current medical model.  I am more frustrated with the doctors who don't check their egos at the door and the ones who feel it is perfectly acceptable to bully a Mama.  I am more frustrated with the amazing amount of NON-evidence based medicine that is currently practiced.

I am also more frustrated with a society that tries to beat down any woman that dares to push back against and even completely reject the medical model for obstetrics.

[GOPLawyer]

Originally Posted by happysmileylady 

It didn't mean anything to you.  If it DOES mean something to another woman...if that really is ALL that matters to her, why should anyone else care? 

Because it's a false premise.  Birth does mean something to her.  If all goes well, she has the luxury to say it didn't.  If it doesn't, it will mean the world to her.

Further, it matters to every woman as how we, as Mamas, react to non-evidence based medicine has a wide impact.  I no one does anything...nothing will change...the status quo continues.  However, if Mamas reject the unnecessary interventions, they will eventually cease to exist except when truly necessary.

As someone who has had to fight very hard in the birth arena, each step forward becomes another step back when someone else accepts the bullying/lies. 

Do I say something when I hear these stories...no. My purpose is not to hurt someone. However, just as she is absolutely entitled to feel however she wants about her child's birth, I am absolutely entitled to be quietly frustrated by yet another step back.

[elisheva]

I, too, have wondered WHY I get angry when other women talk about trusting their OB/HCP and taking all their recommendations. I think it's because, at heart, I'm really mad at so many OBs/HCPs I hear about out there who don't put their patients' best interests first and who don't practice evidence based medicine. Now, I hang out here and on the ICAN list so I realize my sample is a little skewed. 

I'm not angry at the mamas. I'm angry at the docs and the "expertization" of our culture - we need an expert to organize our homes, help us organize our thoughts and emotions, help us get physically fit, parent our children...the list goes on. Yes, it's sometimes useful to get an "expert" opinion. BUT, I've found more and more that an "expert" often...isn't. What would happen in Western culture if people all of a sudden *really* thought for themselves and made decisions based on real info instead of "expert" advice???? I bet a lot of Big Business (Agri, Pharma, etc.) would be wringing their hands trying to figure out how to bring us back under control. 

This isn't an issue about birthing women. It's an issue about self-reliance and accepting responsibility for one's own decisions. I hated my c/s but it was physically very easy. Emotionally and psychologically, it was awful because I realized after-the-fact that it was not necessary in the moment. Perhaps it would have become necessary - who knows? Now I've done my research and I'm no longer afraid of being duped again. If I end up back on that table it will be for a d%mn good reason - it's just too bad that I didn't do my research and take responsibility for my body and my baby the first time around. 

[swede]

Originally Posted by happysmileylady 

It didn't mean anything to you.  If it DOES mean something to another woman...if that really is ALL that matters to her, why should anyone else care? 

yes.  exactly.  and some women can have a really terrible and what would seem to be, traumatic births, and still not care.  I mean, I have a friend who was, what I consider, bullied into a cs.  She really doesn't care.  She doesn't look back on that birth and feel sad or angry.  She really is just happy to have her son.  And so, does that make her a sheep, or ignorant, or unfeeling?  Or does it just make her someone who doesn't happen to care about that particular 'thing'?  She is social worker who now stays at home with her kids.  she loves to read, and is very active in an animal rescue.  She's not an unfeeling, dumb, emotionless idiot.  She just doesn't happen to get worked up about birth.  So what??

[swede]

Originally Posted by GOPLawyer 

Generally, we're taught to take a doctor's word at face value.  They are always looking out for us and they are the professional.  Women, especially, are trained to think this way.  And really, the massive availability of research and information is such a new thing for the general public.  My Mom was just amazed at the info I ended up gathering....it certainly hadn't been available to her when she was having babies.

And generally, this is true.  Despite the perceptions in this board - most of the doctors in the US are professional and are looking out for us, the patient.

[swede]

Originally Posted by elisheva 

I, too, have wondered WHY I get angry when other women talk about trusting their OB/HCP and taking all their recommendations. I think it's because, at heart, I'm really mad at so many OBs/HCPs I hear about out there who don't put their patients' best interests first and who don't practice evidence based medicine. Now, I hang out here and on the ICAN list so I realize my sample is a little skewed. 

I'm not angry at the mamas. I'm angry at the docs and the "expertization" of our culture - we need an expert to organize our homes, help us organize our thoughts and emotions, help us get physically fit, parent our children...the list goes on. Yes, it's sometimes useful to get an "expert" opinion. BUT, I've found more and more that an "expert" often...isn't. What would happen in Western culture if people all of a sudden *really* thought for themselves and made decisions based on real info instead of "expert" advice???? I bet a lot of Big Business (Agri, Pharma, etc.) would be wringing their hands trying to figure out how to bring us back under control. 

This isn't an issue about birthing women. It's an issue about self-reliance and accepting responsibility for one's own decisions. I hated my c/s but it was physically very easy. Emotionally and psychologically, it was awful because I realized after-the-fact that it was not necessary in the moment. Perhaps it would have become necessary - who knows? Now I've done my research and I'm no longer afraid of being duped again. If I end up back on that table it will be for a d%mn good reason - it's just too bad that I didn't do my research and take responsibility for my body and my baby the first time around. 

I happen to be really grateful for experts like the surgeon who performed life saving open-heart surgery on one of my children.  I guess as I've gotten older, I've realized most doctors don't have sinister reasons for what they do, they really do care about their patients and want the best outcome in most situations.
 

[liz-hippymom]

"This is all purely speculative, of course. I don't even know what actually killed him. It's possible he had something wrong, and if he'd survived the birth (either a successful VBA3C or a scheduled c/s), he would have died, anyway. I have no idea. (They don't release the autopsy results to "unqualified" people, and I haven't yet reached the point where I can stomach talking about Aaron with a doctor.)"

i am so sorry you do not have your answers mama. but i had no problem getting my medical report. i even was able to get a private meeting with the medical examiner just by asking. you might want to dig a little deeper. but seeing that you have never vaginally birthed you do not 'know' your c sections were unnecessary. many babies do get stuck in breech deliveries. and a baby that turns during labor is at a VERY high risk for a cord accident. i *personally* would have chosen a c section in each of those scenarios- what i am am sorry for is that you were not able to chose ..that sucks. you should have been allowed to try. but again, you just don't know that the c sections were unnecessary or that the c section was a factor in your son's death. please try to get those records-for your own peace of mind.

after i got mine and talked to the M.E. i felt  weight lifted just to *know* what had happened to my baby.

[liz-hippymom]

but you do not get it- it IS about a healthy baby and mama! i am now of the opinion that if they need to take the baby out of my nostril, they can-so long as i dont have to bury another child.

Originally Posted by GOPLawyer 

Originally Posted by happysmileylady 

In relation to the OP and being frustrated that women don't take a more active role in something that is supposed to be THAT important (on post even says THE MOST important thing.)

Why is birth and the method of birth supposed to be THAT important?  Why is any woman supposed to care so much?  Why is it a bad thing if the most important thing to them is a happy healthy baby and they don't care how they get to that point?

Because the birth can mean life or death.  I am sick, sick SICK to death of the "a healthy baby is all that matters" line.  It is horrible on several levels.  1) It is usually used to justify a c/s which may not have been necessary and very possibly more dangerous.  2) It is used by many HCP and bystanders as a way to bully a Mama into a particular decision.  3)It is equivalent to sticking gyour head in the sand and passing the responsibility of birth decisions onto someone else. 4) It ignores the fact that there are TWO people involved in the birth.  The end result may be a happy, healthy baby but a very scarred (mentally and/or physically) Mama.

And yes....it does work both ways.  My unnecessary 2nd c/s for breech presentation (as was the 1st) ended up almost killing my son.  I am absolutely, 100% sure that it was due to the c/s.  Not a day goes by that I don't wish that I had fought as hard for a VBAC for DS2 as I did (successfully) for DD.

The absolute, most important thing was that DS2 be happy and healthy...and that still didn't matter a bit when it came right down to it.  He almost died and I will forever have terror filled memories of his birth.

That fun little, quippy quote sure didn't mean a darn thing to us.

[GOPLawyer]

Originally Posted by swede 

Originally Posted by GOPLawyer 

Generally, we're taught to take a doctor's word at face value.  They are always looking out for us and they are the professional.  Women, especially, are trained to think this way.  And really, the massive availability of research and information is such a new thing for the general public.  My Mom was just amazed at the info I ended up gathering....it certainly hadn't been available to her when she was having babies.

And generally, this is true.  Despite the perceptions in this board - most of the doctors in the US are professional and are looking out for us, the patient.

It's about more than just intent.  It's also about method...and much of what is practiced in NOT evidence based.  And yes, most doctors are very professional if gyou go along with their game plan.  As soon as gyou choose a different path, it's amazing how many drop all professionalism.

Originally Posted by liz-hippymom 

but you do not get it- it IS about a healthy baby and mama! i am now of the opinion that if they need to take the baby out of my nostril, they can-so long as i dont have to bury another child.

Originally Posted by GOPLawyer 

Originally Posted by happysmileylady 

In relation to the OP and being frustrated that women don't take a more active role in something that is supposed to be THAT important (on post even says THE MOST important thing.)

Why is birth and the method of birth supposed to be THAT important?  Why is any woman supposed to care so much?  Why is it a bad thing if the most important thing to them is a happy healthy baby and they don't care how they get to that point?

Because the birth can mean life or death.  I am sick, sick SICK to death of the "a healthy baby is all that matters" line.  It is horrible on several levels.  1) It is usually used to justify a c/s which may not have been necessary and very possibly more dangerous.  2) It is used by many HCP and bystanders as a way to bully a Mama into a particular decision.  3)It is equivalent to sticking gyour head in the sand and passing the responsibility of birth decisions onto someone else. 4) It ignores the fact that there are TWO people involved in the birth.  The end result may be a happy, healthy baby but a very scarred (mentally and/or physically) Mama.

And yes....it does work both ways.  My unnecessary 2nd c/s for breech presentation (as was the 1st) ended up almost killing my son.  I am absolutely, 100% sure that it was due to the c/s.  Not a day goes by that I don't wish that I had fought as hard for a VBAC for DS2 as I did (successfully) for DD.

The absolute, most important thing was that DS2 be happy and healthy...and that still didn't matter a bit when it came right down to it.  He almost died and I will forever have terror filled memories of his birth.

That fun little, quippy quote sure didn't mean a darn thing to us.

 

I absolutely do get it.  It's not about what is necessary...it's about what is not necessary.
 

[MeepyCat]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride 

Originally Posted by MeepyCat 

There are a ton of books and websites that mention c/s as a possible necessity once or twice and say nothing at all about what choices women have when having c-sections,

I think a lot of the things you mentioned are a good idea - talking about what complications can arise, etc. But, I did want to address this one...because, ime, one of the reasons that people don't talk about the choices women have when facing c-sections is because a lot of women, for all practical purposes, don't have any. I managed to get my way - even though the staff self-evidently thought I was nuts - on most things I wanted when I had dd2. But, I can almost guarantee (having talked to the people involved, some of whom I'd dealt with in prior pregnancies) that the only reason anybody paid any attention to anything I said or wanted is because I had that gigantic "mother of a dead baby" note in my file, and they tiptoe around us. Seriously...if every woman got the kind of care I got after losing a child, maternity care would be light years better than it is. But, before that? No choices. Hospital policy or nothing.
 

But here's the thing, Storm Bride:  there was nothing they did for you after you lost a child that they couldn't have done for you before.  You *thought* you didn't have choices, it *appeared* that you didn't have choices, because the hospital put that front forward for you.  The care you received with your last section should have been the care you began receiving from the first.  I am so sorry that it didn't happen that way.  My care was awesome, and I really think that the sensitivity of the doctors and nurses is a major reason why I'm so at peace with my section.  I am not being at all flip or sarcastic when I say that everyone should have it so good.

When we don't talk about choices, when we say that there are no choices, we find ourselves in the same situation that birthing women were told they were in forty to fifty years ago.   That changed, and this can too.

If you think about it in advance, you can express a ton of preferences - how soon do you want to see the baby after delivery (before or after s/he's examined and cleaned up)?  are you willing to have residents involved in your surgery?  How much do you want to hear about what they're doing on the other side of the blue drape?  Do you have any opinions about suturing methods?  What procedures and exams will the baby be subject to after birth, and when and where should those happen?  Can they be done later and in the room with you?  How can it be arranged that s/he can accompany  you to recovery?  If the baby needs to leave the OR before you're ready to (for, say, medical necessity), can your partner go with?  If this is likely to happen, can you have a second support person in the OR, ready to step in so you aren't left alone?  Can you bring baby clothes of your own so that the baby doesn't wind up in a hospital johnny?  Can your partner or support person take baby pics in the OR?  Who would you like to meet you in recovery?  How do you feel about the Foley catheter - remove asap, or leave it so you don't have to get up to use the bathroom for a few hours?  Is there anything or anyone that would make your remaining time in hospital easier, or help you deal with this experience?  Can you schedule a post-surgery debrief with the surgeon, to discuss what led to your surgery, whether there were any complications (or whether complications should be expected), and what you should expect in recovery and (as far as can be predicted) subsequent pregnancies?

If you're scheduling a section in advance, you should be able to pick the surgeon and have some input on the rest of the team - if you have had prior bad experience with a nurse or anesthesiologist, you should be able to exclude them.

If you have a choice of hospitals, you can go policy shopping, and pick the most reasonable and flexible option.  That may mean switching OBs, but that's okay.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by liz-hippymom 

i am so sorry you do not have your answers mama. but i had no problem getting my medical report. i even was able to get a private meeting with the medical examiner just by asking. you might want to dig a little deeper. but seeing that you have never vaginally birthed you do not 'know' your c sections were unnecessary. many babies do get stuck in breech deliveries. and a baby that turns during labor is at a VERY high risk for a cord accident. i *personally* would have chosen a c section in each of those scenarios- what i am am sorry for is that you were not able to chose ..that sucks. you should have been allowed to try. but again, you just don't know that the c sections were unnecessary or that the c section was a factor in your son's death. please try to get those records-for your own peace of mind.

after i got mine and talked to the M.E. i felt  weight lifted just to *know* what had happened to my baby.

I have no desire to meet with anybody. I just wanted the report. I requested the report, along with all my medical records. It wasn't given to me. I may ask for it again (even though that means dealking with the hospital again), but I was told at the time that they don't release them to lay people - you have to go over it with a doctor. I got pregnant with dd2 right around the same time, and simply wasn't up to dealing with it.

And, yes - I do know that my c-sections were unnecessary. I already said they may have *become* necessary, but they were not necessary when they were done. There's a huge difference. They were convenient for the OB, and the hospital. They may have even been prudent. However, they were not necesasry, and I would not have chosen any of them, except Aaron's (and there was a lot of stuff that happened there that, in retrospect, was just effing bizarre). And, the OB flat out lied to me (or doesn't know what he's talking about) when he told me it was "impossible" for dd1 to turn that late in pregnancy. DD2, who was almost exactly the same size (3oz. lighter, but bigger than they thought dd1 was) and she was changing presentation at least weekly right up until the end of my pregnancy. DS1 turned in labour, which I've also been assured is "impossible". It happened, but something actually happening doesn't carry any weight compared to the experts. The only circumstance under which I'd choose a c-section, without immediate medical indication, is the one where I finally did - I gave up. I no longer even care about my own mental or phsyical health...period. I just don't care. I fought long and I fought hard, and I lost, every single time. I'm done. The doctors got what they wanted...a "good outcome". I could actually vomit, if I still had the energy.

There's also no guarantee that they even know what happened with my son. It's possible they found something in the autopsy, but nobody had a clue at the time. The coroner, pediatrician, etc. were all completely baffled. The pediatrician even told me that her impression, after assessing him in OR, was that he'd died a couple of hours previously...and I heard his heart stop on the monitor, so whatever it was, it was something odd, yk? Knowing what killed Aaron, at this piont, wouldn't give me peace of mind, anyway. It's too late.

To be completely honest, if i'd known, when I was planning my family back in the late 80s/early 90s, what my reproductive future was going to look like, I'd have begged for a tubal. I love my children, but there's no way I'd have knowingly subjected myself to any of this...no way at all. Every single day since I got pregnant with ds2 has been a struggle to make life even look like it's worth it. And, the years before that, when I tried for ten years to have a second baby, and wondered every single day if my primary section had rendered me incapable of doing so, weren't too great, either.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by MeepyCat 

But here's the thing, Storm Bride:  there was nothing they did for you after you lost a child that they couldn't have done for you before.  You *thought* you didn't have choices, it *appeared* that you didn't have choices, because the hospital put that front forward for you.  The care you received with your last section should have been the care you began receiving from the first.  I am so sorry that it didn't happen that way.  My care was awesome, and I really think that the sensitivity of the doctors and nurses is a major reason why I'm so at peace with my section.  I am not being at all flip or sarcastic when I say that everyone should have it so good.

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If you think about it in advance, you can express a ton of preferences - how soon do you want to see the baby after delivery (before or after s/he's examined and cleaned up)?  are you willing to have residents involved in your surgery?  How much do you want to hear about what they're doing on the other side of the blue drape?  Do you have any opinions about suturing methods?  What procedures and exams will the baby be subject to after birth, and when and where should those happen?  Can they be done later and in the room with you?  How can it be arranged that s/he can accompany  you to recovery?  If the baby needs to leave the OR before you're ready to (for, say, medical necessity), can your partner go with?  If this is likely to happen, can you have a second support person in the OR, ready to step in so you aren't left alone?  Can you bring baby clothes of your own so that the baby doesn't wind up in a hospital johnny?  Can your partner or support person take baby pics in the OR?  Who would you like to meet you in recovery?  How do you feel about the Foley catheter - remove asap, or leave it so you don't have to get up to use the bathroom for a few hours?  Is there anything or anyone that would make your remaining time in hospital easier, or help you deal with this experience?  Can you schedule a post-surgery debrief with the surgeon, to discuss what led to your surgery, whether there were any complications (or whether complications should be expected), and what you should expect in recovery and (as far as can be predicted) subsequent pregnancies?

If you're scheduling a section in advance, you should be able to pick the surgeon and have some input on the rest of the team - if you have had prior bad experience with a nurse or anesthesiologist, you should be able to exclude them.

If you have a choice of hospitals, you can go policy shopping, and pick the most reasonable and flexible option.  That may mean switching OBs, but that's okay.

I had most of those opportunities...and in almost all cases, I got hospital policy. Period. I could express preferences until the cows came home - that doesn't mean anybody actually listened. Choice of surgeon has been automatic, as they've been scheduled by whatever OB I was seeing at the time. (DD2 arrived on a Friday, instead of the Monday I'd been hoping for, because my OB had OR privileges on the Friday.) There's no choice of anesthesiologist. I even arranged an anesthesiology consultation, specifically to see if dh could come in there with me, which meant I wasted an hour of my day, was unexpectedly given a massive negative emotional experience (because of a video I had to watch when I got there), only to be told, "we can't tell you - it will depend who's on duty that day" (fortunately, I got one who cut me slack and let dh come in - but that was, almost certainly, again only because I had the "mother of dead baby" note in my file). You can't have a second support person in OR - period. I've asked.

And, switching OBs is not necesarily okay. If I ever absolutely have to go see an OB/GYN again, it will be the one who did my last section. I'm sure there are some others who have compassion, but I haven't met them, and I'm not taking chances. Is that rational? No - but, from my perspective, trusting an OB isn't rational, either. Technically, I have a choice of hospitals, but going to most of them would preclude visits from dh and my kids, and that offsets any benefits they may give me.

This is what I mean. It's not about not being told I had choices, and not knowing to ask. It's about having everything I say routinely dismissed by hospital staff, who either think they know better than I do what I need, or simply follow policy, not matter what. Women should have more options. That doesn't always mean we do. Your post above looks to me like an obstetrician's fairy tale.